Best and worst of Menoth

[Themainmenoth]

I looked up Worst on our search engine and didn't get any best and worst lists, So I thought I'd start one, KEEP IN MIND! this is just opinion and by no means fact, I will have reasons but you may not agree on them, we're all menites here and nothing is SO bad it unplayable. If I didn't put your Favorite on best, then explain who you think is best and keep it civil, that's all I ask, no on to the lists

First of all, who do I think is our Best caster. Man this is a hard one, since most of our casters are so different and serve so many different rolls, but If I had to chose (point of this thread) I'd have to go with Reznik. He has jack support, Infantry support (in Ignite) he has speed, Can become a melee power house, make's his own racks when the starting 3 are gone, of if you didn't bring any to start with. he's just an over all power house.

Worst caster for me has to be the High Reclaimer. He's just so Meh. he has a short control and little defense out side that 1 turn with 20 souls. his feet is ok with the right infantry like bastions or vengers but his epic form seems just as good for that, Another tread did talk about his aweful tier list. He's just so Meh, again, not unplayable but far from something to write home about.

Best Light Warjack: Pound for pound my money is on the repenter, It just has that little bit of everything and is so cheap most any list can squeeze one in there. Even amon might drop 1 dervish for a Repenter, but most other casters would almost always take the repenter first.

Worst Light 'jack: Redeemer by far, so awful is a jack that can't do the job a unit can do better. He's an awful jack that found only one owner in EFeora. I just don't like him.

Best Heavy jack: this is so hard to say, since it really has to be ask what constitutes as best? best stats? well avatar! best based on point value, Crusader, Most mileage? Reckener. I have to put my money down and say the best heavy is the Avatar. I know it's near cheating, but it is almost never do I feel my points were wasted on the Avatar, I'm sure others mileage will very, but At least I acknowledged other choices being worthy ones.

Worst Heavy Jack: Ok this is were others will likely shoot me down. but I do not like the Templar. It's armor doesn't seem to be enough of a game changer, It isn't that hard hitting, it's slow, though reach does help a bit, It's beat back is nice but I rather say it's meh. The templar is far from awful, and I'd hard to be pressed to say it's the worst heavy in the game, Far from it, it's just doesn't impress me like the other options do, When your the worst smelling rose, you probably still don't smell that bad.

Best unit: Oh most would agree the Chior is near always on every list under the sun, it needs to be labeled as #1

Worst unit: Cineraters have to go here, Mainly due to their lack of usefulness. they don't fill a role the other units do better. It's a shame really since I like their concept a lot. oh well, maybe you'll disagree with me on this as well since they are still very hard hitting and can sometimes run half the field in 1 turn. but I'll be happy to hear your defense on these guys, because I do like them, doesn't change my opinion any however.

Best Solo: could this be a harder pick, If i had to chose I'd go with the Vassal of menoth, he's just so potent for our warjacks that he's in most every list I've seen much like the choir, this can go to half of our solos however, there all so good haha.

Worst solo: the only solo I don't see the need for is the order of the fist solo, however he's far from bad, he just doesn't seem to fit any where, he just does his own thing when everyone seems to be team players, again, not the worst solo in the game, just an odd inclusion to the menite forces.

What is your opinion, I'll be glad to read it, I'm far from close minded so I'm sure if you keep it civil, we'll have a good discussion about this

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

I'm having trouble expressing how much I disagree on your worst heavy and worst light choice. Redeemers and Templars are so money... but opinions are opinions!

[Themainmenoth]

Well I'm far from saying I'm right, I'd like to hear why you disagree, and for the record I have an easy time understanding the templar, but a hard time understanding the redeemer, and if not them, who would you put in there instead.

[jandrese]

The Templar is awesome, you're nuts. Anyway, the worst heavy is a tough choice. There is the Scourge of Heresy, or even the Castigator. I would consider the Guardian for this list for being so blatantly overpriced, but it has Reach.

The Templar is above the tipping point where it becomes very difficult to remove a model (ARM20 or 21) with general armies, and Beat Back is pretty incredible on its own. The relatively low point cost helps too. Mostly it's awesome because it has Reach though.

The Castigator suffers because most of the cool stuff it can do it can't do on a charge, and the Vanquisher just eats its lunch money in the infantry clearing department. The fists aren't any stronger than the Vanq's flail either.

The Scourge of Heresy has been discussed to death in a thread that's not too far down on this very forum.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Well I'm far from saying I'm right, I'd like to hear why you disagree, and for the record I have an easy time understanding the templar, but a hard time understanding the redeemer, and if not them, who would you put in there instead.

Ok, no problem:

Templar: Hard Hitting, high armor, movement shenanigans, 8 points. And chain weapon to boot. If the reckoner didn't exist, I think he'd be our best non-character heavy.

In his place I'd put the guardian, personally. Just too many points for what it does.


Redeemer: You say a unit can do his job better (I assume you mean deliverers) and I can't agree with that at all. There's a big difference between pow 6 and pow 8 blast damage. And the big part is that the redeemer can boost. You put 3 focus on it, it throws 3 AOE's out there, and you have a focus to boost if you deviate onto a tasty solo. If you're determined to get a particular solo, you can target it, and as long as you roll a 1 or a 2 for distance, you'll still catch it and kill it. And with range 16" you can often get an aiming bonus, puting him at an effective rat of 5, allowing him to drop pow 14's on heavies. Again, if the repenter didn't exist, this would be our best light jack.

I think our worst light is probably the devout. 5 points is a lot to pay for a jack that's going to sit by your caster and not affect the battle in any way.



Discuss away

[Themainmenoth]

Scourge of Heresy Is a possible contender, It's a shame too since I like reznik so much I really wanted to like his jack just as much too. but with it's lack of reach and it's 4 speed and 9 point cost it is a very very hard sell. and as much as I don't want to agree with you, I may have to reconsider my heavy chose, but lets see what others have to say.

[Themainmenoth]

I understand what your saying about the templar, I hear you, however the redeemer isn't doing what the deliverers can do, and for 6 points you have 6 oaes or 1 power 16 shot, my main problem with the Redeemer is how focus hungry it is, your example has the caster giving it 3 focus, that's a lot to throw out to a light warjack, sevey and harvy can throw that around ok but others won't be so quick to move without maybe a reclaimer. I'm glad you agree with me on the best light chose however lol. oh and I'd agree with you on the devoit if it didn't have defensive strike, I love that ability.

[jandrese]

The Devout is a crappy bodyguard, but that doesn't make it a bad jack. It's our cheapest Reach jack and it has a shield so it doesn't fold up the very instant someone bothers to attack it like the Dervish. Shield Guard and Defensive Strike are both kind of broken right now which does render it a bit underpowered for the points, but it's still reasonably cheap and fairly powerful with Choir support.

For the worst light category, I would seriously consider the Dervish. I used to love the little guys, but I've come to realize that they're just too fragile for frontline fighters. The Repenter has a similar problem, but at least it generally isn't disabled before it has a chance to make one flamethrower attack. The Dervish is very much a one shot cruise missile in its current form, and it really should be SPD 6. For a one shot cruise missile, it really only hits barely harder than any other light (except the Vigiliant) and the fact that the combo strike is a *Attack really makes it hard to justify.

The Redeemer is actually a pretty nice little jack, but the relatively high price prevents me from taking it as often as I would like. Also, the existence of the Vanquisher + Vassal combo makes the Redeemer harder to take, since that's a lot of infantry clearing potential right there already.

[Themainmenoth]

The Dervish is really forgiven to me for being soooooo useful to amon, I know i said the redeemer is given to Efoera a lot, but I personally would field her with the Sanctifier instead, she far* from needs the redeemer, I've never seen a list with amon that didn't have a dervish unless the point was to not use it.

[Ramrod]

Yay lists!
Best Caster: pSeverius
Worst Caster: High Reclaimer
Best Light Warjack: Repenter
Worst Light Warjack: Devout
Best Heavy Warjack: Reckoner
Worst Heavy Warjack: Scourge of Heresy
Best Unit: Exemplar Errants
Worst Unit: Exemplar Cinerators
Best Solo: Vassal of Menoth
Worst Solo: Allegiant of the Order of the Fist

[Themainmenoth]

haha PSeverius is my second main caster other then reznik, and it would seem we agree on a lot.

[PG_KestrelM1]

I think this thread is doomed to endless disagreement.

The simple fact is that there's no Best or Worst in the Protectorate - everything is useful with the right caster, buffs, or support.

Redeemers are the worst - until you use one with eFeora, where they become one of the best.
Deliverers are the worst - until you use them with pKreoss, where they become one of the best.
Dervishes are the worst - until you use one with Amon, where they become one of the best.
Cinerators are the worst - until you use them with Vindictus... etc.

Are there "niche" units in the Protectorate, things that only really click with one or two casters? Sure, but none of them are the best or the worst. What's best is what works for you.

[Themainmenoth]

The point is to not agree, but to discuss. if you feel something isn't the worst then defend it. and i still feel bastions are better for vindictus, haha but that's not here nor there.

[vivakenshin]

I would have to disagree with the worst unit. Cineraters with 8 health and armor 17 they can take a hit. It takes a lot of pow 10 guns to pick one off and shrug off blast damage. Can charge through the creeping barrage of the new colossals no problem

Never been a big fan of the Idrians. If I need a fast unit I take daughters, if I need a range 10 shot I take Errants.

Its hard to say what is the worse because its all on personal taste and play style.

[Exemplar's_Gaze]

Alright, I will throw my choices into the ring.

Best caster - pSeverius. He supports his army. He has the focus to fuel a fair number of jacks. Can assassinate with the flick of his wrist.

Worst caster - pFeora. She doesn't do ANYthing for her army outside of Ignite. Focus hog. Feat is amazing or horrible depending on your opponent.

Best Heavy - Avatar. Makes its own focus. Hits like a truck. High armor. Board control. SPD 5 with Reach. Non-character award is a no-brainer - the Reckoner. Assault, SPD 5, Reach, Flare, Ashen Veil.

Worst heavy - Castigator. Losing Combust on the charge killed this guy. The lack of a chain attack is also sad. No reach.

Best light - Revenger. Reach. Repel. Powerful charge. Almost every caster we have wouldn't mind one. A close second is the Repenter, but I just don't reach for it as often.

Worst light - Vigilant. No reach. Pillow fists. Only good at not dying quickly. Which is regrettable because it is, in my opinion, the coolest-looking light jack in the game.

Best solo - Hierophant. I take him with every caster. The minus to focus cost with the occasional heal and spell extension is golden. Vassal of Menoth is a CUHLOSE second.

Worst solo - We don't have a bad solo. But the one I use the least is the Allegiant of the Fist. I love him though.

Best Unit - Daughters of the Flame. High defense. Fast. Two attacks. Acrobatics. Anatomical precision. Acrobatics (yes, I know I said it twice. It is that good.) Choir is the obvious choice, so I went to my secondary unit.

Worst unit - Deliverers. Vanquishers and Redeemers do it better. They are the only unit for Protectorate that I do not own. I used to, but I never used them. So I sold them.

My two cents.

[jandrese]

Dervishes are the worst - until you use one with Amon, where they become one of the best.

Interestingly, Amon is one case where I really don't like Dervishes. They die too quick and impact my Synergy generation. The Devout has served me much better, not only for the shield, but also for Reach. If you take more than one you can even benefit from Synergy on your opponent's turn (but not usually).

I also love the Vigilant though. I've got a lot of models that offer beat down, it's nice to have something that is completely different. I love how even if the Vigilant dies it feels like it accomplished something (even if that thing was eating way more super-powerful attacks that were not directed at my heavy jacks). Armlocks are amazing with tough 4 point models too. Protip: Everything else being equal, always make the lock attack with the left hand. Damage in warmachine always goes to the right. The Vigilant is also amazing with Amon, since it is a fantastic model to start off Synergy chains and Mobility is tremendously useful in getting into power attack range (7.5" instead of 5.5" as usual), and his feat makes them immune to freestrikes so they can dance around to the back of the jack before making the Armlock, causing your opponent to see red.

[Themainmenoth]

That's what I want to see, everyone's personal lists, It isn't so much about disagreeing with my list, but seeing what you'd put on your own. =D nice list gaze.

[Alzer]

I'm going to list what I've tried out, since I'm far from having played everything in our faction.

Warcasters (pKreoss, pSevy, eSevvy, Reznik, Vindictus, Amon, High Reclaimer)
-Best: pSevy There are few Warcasters that you can plug ANY model/Unit in with and not have to worry about you slowing them down. pSev goes in this catagory. Very easy to play, just straight buffs your army ;with some nasty spellslinging.
-Worst: Amon He's fine at the low points I've played him but I just don't think he'd grow into a better caster from there. Can't support his army enough.
-Favorite: Vindictus: Challenging to play with, but very effective when used properly. Insanely tough when he's DWarded. He has a great spell set that allows him to be very flexible.

Heavy Warjack (Vanquisher, Templar, Castigator, Reckoner, Guardian, Scourge of Heresy, Crusader, Avatar, Sanctifier)
-Best: Vanquisher: Able to murder a squad of infantry one turn, and crush a heavy the next. The versatility of this jack makes it one of my favorite additions to a list. Also it doesn't need focus for most of the game.
-Worst: Crusader: I know it's cheap and shouldn't have any bells and whistles, but it just refuses to accomplish anything for me.


Light Warjack (Dervish, Devout, Revenger, Repenter, Redeemer)
-Best: Revenger: Inordinantly tough for a light (The thing makes a good number of heavies jealous) Hits rather hard, and has an arc node. Also powerful charge reach weapon makes it a HUGE threat to janky casters. (Mat 10 pow 15 charge = pain)
-Worst: Dervish here. I really like the thing (Awesome model, fun rules) but it just doesn't get enough done. Or my expectations are too high. I'm giving them more field time atm.

Unit(Knights Exemplar, Errants, Bastions, Cinerators, Cleansers, Deliverers, Holy Zealots, Rhoven and Co)
-Best: Holy Zealots: Self Sufficent, excellent tarpitting abilities, damage output and fair mobility.
-Worst: Cinerators: Just a little to slow to get the job done. (Need to try them with Defender's Ward)
-Favorite: Deliverers: YAY ROCKETS! Wheeeeeee!!!

Solo (Vassal, Reclaimer, Paladin, Vilmon, Wracks, Heirophant)
-Best: Vassal: That thing is just way too good. Makes our jacks ridiculous, and every once-in a while he blows up my opponent's support solo (Or a member of the Blackfrost Shard) Did I mention he has an AMAZING model?
-Worst: Covenant. Thing has no attacks, what gives!? [/troll]

[Murphy's lawgiver.]

Best Caster : pSeverius or eSeverius? I can't decide, i love pSeverius for he support very well his army, but eSeverius have a serious feat, and some awesome control on the board. But i strongly feel the coolness of Kr3oss will soon overwhelm me.

Worst Caster : pFeora. Period. Random feat, no support, and ugly model.

Best heavy : The avatar, or the Reckoner. But i tend to say Reckoner, I play him way much than the Avatar.

Worst Heavy : Scourge of Heresy. Overkill everywhere, and super-pricey; i actually need to see if this 'jack can be good against Collosse.

Best light : Revenger, and because i love severius, Blessing of vengeance. For 1 more point, it get +1 Mat, +2 to damage spell with severius, defensive strike, and Bushwack. I love him.

Worst light : Devout. 5 point wasted on a weaksauce guard with a weak attack (at least it got reach). I actually like the vigilant, it can throw, and it can lock.

Best solo : Hierophant (yeah, severius strike again) or.... the Covenant : amazing solo for 2 point, the no-kd help a LOT, and auto-fire on errant is priceless.

Worst solo : Actually, i love the model of the allegiant of the order of the fist. And it's tons of fun to play. Basically, we don't have any really bad solo, so i'm choosing by the model : wrack. These models are useful, but they are ugly AS HELL.

Best unit : Errant. Super denying, high armor, pathfinder, and can still deliver enough punch to deal with most of the infantry and heavy infantry.

Worst unit : Deliverer are UGLY, and pretty much useless when you own redeemers and you aren't tied to play pKreoss.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

I understand what your saying about the templar, I hear you, however the redeemer isn't doing what the deliverers can do, and for 6 points you have 6 oaes or 1 power 16 shot, my main problem with the Redeemer is how focus hungry it is, your example has the caster giving it 3 focus, that's a lot to throw out to a light warjack, sevey and harvy can throw that around ok but others won't be so quick to move without maybe a reclaimer. I'm glad you agree with me on the best light chose however lol. oh and I'd agree with you on the devoit if it didn't have defensive strike, I love that ability.

Again, just discussing, but I disagree Single AOE's with pow 6 blast damage kill practically nothing, and 6 points for that one pow 16 AOE is not cost effective, IMO.

As for the focus investment on the Redeemer, it's a valid concern, but unnecessary. To be fair, I generally give it 2 focus a turn, and usually only the first 2-3 turns. You're not going to want to give it focus when you've got better things to do like juice up a couple of heavies when the lines close, but you can do a huge amount of damage those first couple of turns. It goes nuts the first couple of turns, tosses out a shot here and there for the next turn or two, then gets full focus and punches something that thought it was a good idea to wander into my back lines. They can hit surprisingly hard in melee. Or you can go for a late game ranged assassination if you can engineer a knock-down.

I love this little jack, if you couldn't tell...

[Themainmenoth]

well I have to admit, The army i've used the deliverers in is psevey, and with him they do 7 aoes and power 17 damage from 16 inches away with next to no miss chance (since i use a full unit) and 5 aoe of pow 9 damage rolls, I also now have to compare it to the colossal who does much the same and is focus efficient but the point cost comparison is huge!

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

well I have to admit, The army i've used the deliverers in is psevey, and with him they do 7 aoes and power 17 damage from 16 inches away with next to no miss chance (since i use a full unit) and 5 aoe of pow 9 damage rolls, I also now have to compare it to the colossal who does much the same and is focus efficient but the point cost comparison is huge!

Oh man, try a redeemer with Severius1. Blows your mind.

But yeah, Judicator is like two redeemers and two repenters taped together. And it doesn't really need focus. And it hits like a truck. Judicator makes me happy.

[Themainmenoth]

well I have to say this, My deliverers haven't done me wrong yet, and i run 2 vanquishers who eat my focus right up, I don't think i'd have any left for a redeemer.

[DaNDeMeNTo]

Armlocks are amazing with tough 4 point models too. Protip: Everything else being equal, always make the lock attack with the left hand. Damage in warmachine always goes to the right. [...] so they can dance around to the back of the jack before making the Armlock, causing your opponent to see red.

Could you elaborate on that a little? How is an armlock with a STR 9 model that amazing? What am I missing here? If the opposing Jack breaks free at the beginning of combat, they still get their full set of initials, right?


Also, my 2cents:

Best Caster: pSeverius - makes everything amazing (EoM), strong feat against WM, DefWard (best upkeep in the game), amazing assassination potential / troop clearing abilities with BoV

Worst Caster: Amon - I don't like light-Jack spammage and he dies to a stiff breeze...

Best Heavy: Reckoner - hands down, nuff said

Worst Heavy: SoH - slow, pricey

Best Light: Redeemer - amazing to pick off pesky solos / stealthed models; 3 boostable AoEs can really hand-cuff your opponent; a 1 or 2 on deviation always hits (a little random, but AMAZING)

Worst Light: Devout - too many points for a babysitter

Best Unit: Temple Flameguard - incredibly cheap for what they do, amazing tarpit with DefWard, souls for reclaimers, even ok vs. Jacks with Ignite & CMA... always worth their points

Worst Unit: Cleansers - incredibly fragile, RAT 5 really suxx for them... I just don't get it.

Best Solo: Reclaimer - hands down. Especially at lower point levels I like it even better than the vassal. Awesome in combination with TFG. Free focus for 1 Jack in turns 2 & 3 is soooo good.

Worst Solo: Gotta go with Allegiant of the Order of the Fist as well - great fluff and cool model tho.

[Blackraine]

For me:

Best Caster - eKreoss. He can caster kill in melee, he can caster kill with his army, his feat is rarely ever useless, and he's got a pretty good mix of buffs and denial. It's a pretty hard choice, though... I like pretty much all of our casters.
Worst Caster - Unfortunately, I'm going to have to agree and say the High Reclaimer. His MAT is too low to do anything in melee, his FOC is too low to use his soul tokens offensively, and the change to how he collects soul tokens (that they have to be killed by enemy attacks/collateral damage) really nukes what little usefulness he had. He used to be my favorite caster in Mk. I because there were so many different tricks you could use him for, but in Mk. II, I'm not a big fan of taking casters that can't hit anything with any of the attack options they have available.

Best Light Jack: Probably Redeemer... it's a tough call. I'd give the Vigilant and the Repenter a pretty Runner Up trophy. With Choir and Reckoner support, it's popping out 3 POW 14's at effectively RAT 7. I don't know of another light 'jack that can dish out that much ranged damage, unless you get a good angle with a Repenter.
Worst Light Jack: Dervish. I love the dervish... it does amazing things in some lists (especially Amon ad Raza's). But it's a 16 armor melee 'jack... it gets scrapped the second anyone looks at it. The 17 ARM on our ranged 'jacks is a bit more acceptable... at least they can sit back and shoot with the Choir singing "Don't Shoot Me" at the top of their lungs. The Dervish has to get in there where he's gonna get hit by something, and it doesn't take much of a something to ruin his day.

Best Heavy 'Jack: Reckoner... definitely. It may not have the highest damage output, but it's not far behind. The main reason it's so good is that it's an essential support cog (that -2 DEF from flare is a key component for certain lists), and it does this without sacrificing its damage output. I have a very hard time not taking this 'jack in every list I make. Vanquisher and Guardian are my runners up here... I know people don't like the Guardian, but I'm ok paying 9 points for a model that can throw two 'jacks a turn AND have an arc node. In my Feora and Reznik lists, he's essential.
Worst Heavy 'Jack: Castigator. The Crusader's not great, but he's costed to be not great... I can deal with a 3" shorter threat range than most of my other 'jacks if I get a heavy for the cost of a light warjack. The Castigator isn't bad, I don't think... he's just not as good as the other options. He's a specialized semi-beatstick in an army full of beatstick 'jacks that all bring something else to the table.

Best Unit: Bastions? They're all good, so this is another hard choice. KEE are also vying for this top spot, and I'd even throw TFG in there just because of what you get for what you're paying, and how well our faction buffs support them.
Worst Unit: Idrians. I know everyone's going to think I'm crazy here... but they're just way too expensive for something that dies so easily. I know they *can* get a lot done, but I've rarely ever seen them do anything but die horribly. I can pay 2-4 points less for any other unit that dies slightly less horribly and still has a chance to do something. I may just be bitter that they soak up so many points in Amon's crappy Tier list. Cinerators are also vying for this bottom spot, because no matter how I look at it, they can always be Bastions for the same points.

Best Solo: Vassal. For real... he's just too useful to not take the top slot.
Worst Solo: I feel pressured for having to choose. I dunno... I personally never use the Covenant, but I've never needed it either. One of those Your Meta May Vary sort of things, I guess.

[hamsandwich50]

Best Caster pSeverius - As has been pointed out he makes everything better and he has enough focus to fuel a few more jacks than normal. One thing that really speaks to his standing is that an argument can be made that a lot of the stats in our faction are based on the fact that we can have access to eye of menoth. Plus the same argument can be made about Defenders ward which he also has.

Amon does rank a close second in my book since his playstyle is fun and requires some forethought, plus a lot of the time his army just stuns your enemy with the stuff it can do.

Worst Caster pFeora- I've never played her so this is with a big grain of salt but just from looking at her I never saw the right amount of support and and it seems like she wants to the one getting the caster kill which is not always great.

Best heavy Reckoner - For me he beats the Avatar since he's cheaper and is part of a battlegroup which open up a few more doors for him. He's fast, has reach, and a decent range options that he doesn't lose out on if he charges.

Worst Heavy Castigator- I say this even though I love using the castigator but he needs the right support to work well and most of the time I reserve him for eFeora since P+S 20 fist are nice mixed with some more fire output for her feat.

Best unit (not counting choir) Temple Flame Guard+UA- I love these guys cheap bodies reach and if they hit they have a 2/3 chance of doing another pow 12 next turn. The main thing I use them for though is a road block to get in front of my jacks which they do a great job at.

Worst unit Idrians- Expensive for what they bring to the table, a minimum 9 point investment if you take the UA is a little pricey for what they bring to the table. I've never tried them with thyra but occultation could probably help them a little more. Saying all that I will admit to enjoying them occasionally in a pSeverius list, stacking the prey bonus and Eye is pretty awesome and shocks people with how powerful it can be.

Best solo Reclaimer- I love benefiting from my own dudes dying and he helps fuel jacks which can be a struggle sometimes. While they are solos that I use more often when I take a reclaimer and he does his job it's awesome how much he can add to the army.

Don't really have anything I would taint with the title of worst solo since all of the factions solos are a good choice, and in defense of the Allegiant I've had him take the activations of two jacks just to get him off the table. That was two jacks that weren't attacking my front line but were instead messing with a two point solo in the rear or their army.

[Themainmenoth]

I don't know about weapon lock, but the vigilant can always slam, even a heavy for the ol' knock down.

[hamsandwich50]

Could you elaborate on that a little? How is an armlock with a STR 9 model that amazing? What am I missing here? If the opposing Jack breaks free at the beginning of combat, they still get their full set of initials, right?

even if they break the lock they lose the initial on the arm that was locked so it can turn out pretty well.

[DaNDeMeNTo]

even if they break the lock they lose the initial on the arm that was locked so it can turn out pretty well.

Is that true? I'm pretty sure I've read a ruling that this is not the case, ie after breaking free the formerly locked model gets the initial with the formerly locked weapon(s).

[LidlessPraetor]

For me, there's a few things I would change. You mentioned earlier that you're #2 would be pseverius: I think he deserves the #1 spot. Here's why I'd take him over Reznik: the former is on a small base, the latter, on a medium base making him much harder to hide. Reznik's control range is also 4 inches shorter then Severius, meaning he's harder to hide and has to get closer to have a tangible impact. I tend to grab support casters in any army first, and Severius just has much better support spells imho: Def Ward, Eye of Menoth, and Vision.

Largely, I agree with the Light Warjack: Repenter, but I think the Revenger is in a tie with it. For me, flip a coin for that slot, b/c they're both amazing 'jacks (I tend to use one of each every game)

For me, the best heavy Warjack is hands down a Reckoner. At the risk of being placed on a wrack and set ablaze, I have to say that the Avatar does not do anything for me. Generating his own focus is nice, but he's really expensive. In place of an Avatar, you can just about afford *two* crusaders. They may not be as high armored, but the pair have double the damage boxes of a single Avatar. In addition, I've always had great success with my Crusader(s) as a second wave hammer. I won't even go into depth about either Harby's or Eseverius' tiered lists where the Crusaders are actually *cheaper* than the Avatar...

Worst Solo has got to be the Mechanik. Repair [8]?! Feels too random for my tastes. I'd take the wrack over him any day of the week.

[SnakeEyes]

Best caster - Harbinger. Such a tough one but board control rules. And shutting down a unit with Fear of God. And Purification.


Worst caster - Vindictus. "Hi, I have one win condition. Slog fest." Boring and SO predictable. I've just never gotten the vibe for this guy.

Best Heavy - Vanquisher. My first concern in any list is how to deal with infantry. AOE's check. But what if their immune to blast damage? Vanquisher no care. And it hits hard although it won't get first strike.

Worst heavy - Easy answer is the Scourge of Heresy. As said before, overkilling SPD 4 jack with no Reach for 9 points. LOL. For non-character, I agree with the Castigator. I own two and they don't even make my consideration for lists.

Best light - Redeemer. It kills units/solos first turn or two with a beautiful 16" range. Late game it deals with those annoying flankers. If there are no infantry, it can sit back, aim, and help concentrate fire with boosted damage on heavies. It's even good for assassinations when you boost to hit rolls after a Reck shot.

Worst light - Vigilant. Yeah, what's this thing's role? Road bump? I don't need a 4 point punching bag. Thanks anyways. And I don't want 4 points just babysitting stuff low ARM stuff. That said, I see potential use and I've got it in some Amon/Thyra builds but I haven't run them.

Best solo - Vassal of Menoth. Defensive and offensive support awesomeness.

Worst solo - Allegiant of the Fist. I've run this solo only a handful of times. Probably one of those solos I need to give more of a shot as just a pure blocker. Too bad there are so many more better two point options.

Best Unit - Won't pick Chor since it's obvious. This is super tough since we don't have any stand outs, each has a particular role, and subsequently it's a "flavor of the month" thing for me. I'll go with Bastions. They're a great roadblock and unlike the TFG and Zealots they can hit hard.

Worst unit - Deliverers. Agreeing with Exemplar's Gaze on this one for the same reasons. Redeemers, Vanquishers, and now the Justicator do it so much better, are far more durable, don't get in the way of my army as much, and can throw down in melee if they need to (yes, even the Redeemer).

[Bollster]

Is that true? I'm pretty sure I've read a ruling that this is not the case, ie after breaking free the formerly locked model gets the initial with the formerly locked weapon(s).

If you armlock a heavy (or a light), they have to use their combat activation to break it, so they get their initials but they cannot move around. If you armlock from the back arc then they have finished their movement to break the lock and so they cannot even turn to face you, therefore they cannot attack you. My Cryx opponent thinks the Vigilant is OP in battlebox games because if it gets to the Slayer, that Slayer is going nowhere for about 3 turns unless his dice get uber hot.

On Topic:
My Best Caster: Feora2, every time I've played her I've been amazed by how many options I have. Speed 6 Templars? Speed 7 Repenters? Def 15 Arm 19 as long as she's near one of her own jacks? What's not to like? I've had her laugh off a Dire Troll Mauler charge (admittedly she did get pasted by a Bronzeback once but then that's to be expected) and she's very hard to assassinate. Good feat, great spell list, great stats.
My Worst Caster: Amon. He just doesn't work for me and as this is subjective list, that's all I need to really say. I think he'd be fun with a full list of Crusaders but I can't be bothered painting up two more just to have a 4 Crusader Amon list so he sits in my painting queue, constantly being pushed to the back by literally any new thing I get.

My best heavy jack: I'm going with a bit of a dark horse, Blood of Martyrs. I only ever run it with Thyra but it is always gold. Killed Calandra from about 11 inches away, starting from behind rough terrain with models in the way. Kills everything it has ever got its knives into excepting Madrak2 because I forgot that darned self sacrifice thing he has going. Never disappoints.
My worst heavy jack: Having never used SoH, mine would have to be the Reckoner. I know, I know but I can never get it to work like others claim it does. Happy to admit this is probably me being inept but I've always thought, when I play it, that I'd have rather had a Templar or a Crusader and a solo. Not to say I never play it, because I do but out of all my heavies, it's the one I reach for last generally.

My best light jack: Tricky, but Repenter. We all know why he's good, solo assassin, troop clearer, can dent a heavy in a pinch.
My worst light jack: I agree with the Dervish, he just never does what I expect him to do although he's far from useless. I think all our lights are pretty good, to say the Dervish is the worst is not really an insult to it.

My best unit: TFG+UA. Sure they need support to really shine, Rhupert and DW is a bit gross but even without that support, they are often a very frustrating speedbump that lights things on fire and really, what more can you ask for?
My worst unit: Errants. What kind of Protectorate player am I? you ask, well I like TFG an awful lot and Errants sort of fulfil the same roll, albeit in a different way. When it comes to Exemplar of any stripes, I almost universally prefer the Flameguard alternative, if it exists. I'm just a Feora kind of guy...

My best solo: Nicea all over. Close, we have some great ones, but Nicea almost always kills over her weight in points. Just last game she netted a Trollkin Champ, Hero, Skaldi and Madrak2 himself. Even when she doesn't do quite as well as that, she still scares the heck out of my opponents and kills enough to earn her keep.
My worst solo: I don't really have one so KE Seneschal. As a 3 point combat solo he competes with Nicea for me, although they do very different things on the board. he's certainly not bad but he only makes it into lists that don't include Nicea because I don't play Nicea without DotF.

That wraps that up. It's a good exercise for making you think about what you really are comfortable playing with and what you only use because you feel like you should. For me anyway!

[hamsandwich50]

Is that true? I'm pretty sure I've read a ruling that this is not the case, ie after breaking free the formerly locked model gets the initial with the formerly locked weapon(s).

Heres a thread that I started with this question that has a ruling

[jandrese]

Even better: If you armlock a colossal it is forced to switch to melee mode instead of firing it's huge array of guns.

If you go and armlock it from the rear and leave your own models out of melee range it may in fact lose its entire activation, on an 18-20 point model on an effect coming from a 4 point model.

[dchadpage]

Best caster: Harbinger. I don't even know what this is a discussion. She's not fair.

Worst caster: Probably Amon. He's good at one thing, and even then not that amazing. High Reclaimer isn't much better.

Best Light Warjack: My bias is towards the Redeemer. Bonded with eFeora he's silly. Sevy makes him RAT6 with POW9 blasts or POW15 hits. He's a laser gun with pKreoss - 3 16" POW14's on a kd'd target? Yes please! I almost never give him more than 2 focus, and almost always Ancillary shot.

Worst Light 'jack: Devout. The one thing he does doesn't actually work with the current rules.

Best Heavy jack: Reckoner. Avatar is good, but he's not run-it-in-every-list good. The Reckoner is. The Sanctifier seems widely useful as well, but I've only played a few games proxying him.

Worst Heavy Jack: Guardian.

Best unit: Choir is the real pick here, but viewing them as support instead of a unit, Errants. The easiest way to know it's the Errants is to ask other factions which of our units they hate the most.

Worst unit: Flameguard Cleansers. They're fragile and short range.

Best Solo: I play a Vassal in practically every list, and often two. I can't say the same for any other solo.

Worst solo: This one is tough, but I'd probably have to pick the Mechanik. KEE Senny and monk are close, but at least they do something. Our mechanik is very underwhelming and doesn't seem to do even half of what other factions' mechaniks do.

[FearMeMortals]

For reference my responses are in the format of best/worst

Harbinger/Reznik
Reckoner/Scourge of Heresy
Redeemer/Vigilant
Exemplar Errants/Cleansers
Vassal/Mechanic

[Themainmenoth]

well there seems to be a lot others agree with me on, most don't seem to agree on 'jacks, but I've read every post and most agree with me that "Reclaimer is the worst or 2nd worst caster." other then amon/pfeora
the Repenter is the best light jack, the Vassal is the best solo, the Monk is the worst solo (other then the mechanic to some) the best unit is all over the board but I've seen "The Choir" as the Obvious chose, so that makes it the most likely case. the disagreements are, the Redeemer is a great jack and the dervish is the worst, the worst heavy is the castigater (which is one of my favorite jack's but i'm not complaining), and the worst unit is the Deliverers. oh only one guy said anything about reznik but it wasn't that he's a bad choice for best, just psevey is a better choice, who seems to have the most votes for best.

[Themainmenoth]

I for one am loving this thread, I like hearing peoples opinions, regardless of what they think of mine.

[Zembar]

Guess I'll throw my choices in.

Best & Favorite Caster: eFeora. Fast jacks, good stats, good spell list, good feat, hard to assassinate. I just all around love her.

Worst Caster: There's a lot I haven't gotten to play, but based on the rules I can read I'd probably have to say Amon. He just doesn't interest me.

Best Light: I'd say a tie between Redeemer and Revenger. Redeemer is up there just because I play eFeora so much, but I disagree that eFeora is the only caster he's good with. I find pSevvy and pKreoss can use him to a very nice effect. Revenger is just a great jack, a lot more resilient than you think at first glance, and can do some good damage (plus the arc node)

Worst light: Dervish or Devout. Probably say Devout. I just never find a use for him.

Best Heavy: Reckoner. Yes I picked it over the Avatar. It's just that damned good. I probably wouldn't even put the Avatar 2nd, but it would probably take 3rd (it's really good, but expensive)

Worst Heavy: Guardian. I just don't see anyone I'd use him with.

Best unit: Daughters. Every time I bring them they do more than their share of expected work. They rarely kill things (or more than 1 or two things) but the positioning they afford me by forcing my opponent to deal with them is just sooo valuable.

Worst unit: Deliverers or Vengers. I don't own Deliverers, so haven't been able to play with them, and Vengers are just a bit expensive for my tastes. Although they seem to have fit the reinforcements niche pretty well at 35points for me. So I'll say Deliverers here.

Best solo: Nicia, A daughter of the flame with stealth and a gun? YES PLEASE!

Worst solo: Mechanik. I take him fairly often, but most of the time it seems to be a wasted point. Either nothing survives the first strike, or he's not in position, or I just fail the roll >.<

[Shifting Sand]

My opinions are very limited as I have only one caster and a tier army, but I did go through the entirety of several Warmachine armybooks before settling on the caster I would like to begin my Warmahordes experience with, so that should count for something.

Best Warcaster: Amon
To give some perspective, I'm the guy who used to play Hackmans in Mech Warrior on XBox Live, running around in circles sniping at others during Not It contests and being a general nuisance to the Madcat spam that was out there on the battlefield. Amon's dynamic fits perfectly with this play style, so I'm happy as punch with him.

Worst Warcaster: High Reclaimer
This goes to my search for a second caster (which I still haven't found). Of them, this one makes the least sense to me in terms of themed lists.

Best/Worst Heavy Warjack: No choices
Never looked at the rules for any of them in depth, let alone played with any.

Best Light Warjack: Devout
Spell Barrier makes Amon so clutch. While Dervishes get a definite bonus from Amon, it's the Devout I find impossible to not take every game.

Worst Light Warjack: Redeemer
Just doesn't work for me. Wound up trading it to another Menoth player for a Skorne Cyclops Savage. Still think I got the better of the deal.

Best Unit: Holy Zealots
Alone, they're pretty solid with their prayers. Combined with a Monolith Bearer there is no greater irritant to your opponent on the battlefield!

Worst Unit: Idrian Skirmishers
I actually like playing with them, but I understand their shortcomings. Were it not for the Reclaimer I add to my lists, they would be totally useless. At least I get something out of them when they die.

Best Solo: Allegiants of the Order of the Fist
I have to admit that I'm shocked they're as looked down upon here as they are. Once I figured out how best to utilize them, I have found their Shifting Sands Stance to be one of the greatest formation busters in the game. My opponents universally groan when I field them, and with Amon's tier list allowing me to field four at a time, you can work wonders tempting the opponent to come after them. The best part is that the opponent really has no choice but to address them. If they don't, they'll slip into the backfield and get free charge runs on the caster. A "damned if you do, damned if you don't" unit if ever there was one.

Worst Solo: Vassal Mechanik
He's useful, but because my experience is solely with Amon, I find it difficult for the Mechanik to keep up. As such, I don't bother.