Best and worst of Menoth

[Themainmenoth]

oh no, I just hit with 4 other models before that last dervish with the choir >=D

[Vinsklortho]

Oh if we are going for favorites then. I'll list the ones out of what I've played.

Favorite Warcaster: eFeora is my favorite with pKreoss being a close second. Setting things on fire when those fires go out is pretty fun not to mention her durability and decent enough melee abilities let me threaten casters/warlocks with her if necessary. Her tendency to run lots of jacks and her teleporting round out why I like her so much.

Least Favorite Warcaster: If I'm only talking casters I have table time with then I'd have to say pSevvy. I like the pseudo-gunline I run with him, but the caster itself(as I tend to play him) is pretty much a focus caddy with a meh feat and a giant +att/dmg aura. Almost every other caster feels like they do more personally. pSevvy is a great caster, but for me he is the least fun part about the army lists I run with him. (Haven't played eKreoss, Kr3oss, High Reclaimer, Amon)

Favorite Light Warjack: The Redeemer. I tend to run it almost exclusively with eFeora or pKreoss but I really like it.

Least Favorite Light Warjack: The Revenger. I just don't tend to spell sling very often and when I do I would much rather pay the extra few points and upgrade to a Guardian so my node can double as a way to kill heavies if needed. (Haven't played Dervish, Vigilant, or Blessing of Vengeance)

Favorite Heavy Warjack: The Avatar of Menoth. It hits so dang hard and I've had Gaze of Menoth do so many stupid things and even win me games. I think of it more as a tractor beam for getting Thyra the assassination even though I had a 35 point MM/TC game where it saved Reznik from assassination and won me the game by objective.

Least Favorite Heavy Warjack: The Castigator. The Vanquisher just kinda seems to do everything better. (Haven't played Sanctifier, Templar, Fire of Salvation, or Scourge of Heresy)

Favorite Unit: Holy Zealots. There are so many stupid things that one turn of near immortality can do. As a bonus pow 14 bombs aren't bad either.

Least Favorite Unit: Deliverers. They're like a crappy version of Stormfall Archers. Pow 6 AoEs really only have one target where as at least the choir bumping the Redeemer up to pow 8(plus things like boosting or cont fire from the bond) give it a greater deal of flexibility. (I have played every unit in the book)

Favorite Solo: Vassal of Menoth. Enliven and Anciliary Attack are both a lot of fun. That 2 point solo gets a lot of hate from opponents which usually means more fun for me.

Least Favorite Solo: Wracks. Focus management is one of the less sexy things a solo can be used for. Combine that with how much of a pain they are to deploy without jeopardizing infantry and you have my least favorite way of managing focus. (Haven't played Allegiant, KE Seneschal, Reclaimer, or Gravus)

[Kazi]

Vilmon: I used to argue that he was properly costed for MKII, simply not what we wanted him to be. But then Hordes MKII came out, and then all of the 3 pt super solos since have just been creeping up and up in power . . . And by now it is clear that the original intention behind his nerfing (reducing the number of solos with multiple attacks/caster killing power) has been left behind. So basically he got screwed for nothing. In my opinion they should just errata him with Rapid Strike and we'll call it good. Although, disclaimer, I do play him constantly and he does good work. It just upsets me to compare him to the other 3 pt solos that are out.

High Reclaimer: I am surprised to see him on this list so frequently. You know for all of his poor matchups he has some great ones. And if your opponent can't handle the rolling clouds they can be in for a crushing defeat. Like, "At the end of the game I've killed a half-unit of infantry and I'm completely tabled," defeat. That alone puts him above some of our other casters in my opinion. Finally, he has a couple different tricks. Clouds, soul collection/mass focus camping and use, reviving. Its rare to hit an army that ignores them all.

[jandrese]

I've found the HR is a bit of a noob stomper. Against new players he'll just stump them and you'll get a completely one sided game. Against veteran players however, it's a different story. Clouds are intimidating, but there are ways around them, sometimes literally (I've had plenty of people who just split their army in two and run along each side of the board. If it's fast they can outrun the HR's slow brick pretty easily.

[Stinkmeaner]

For the points especially, I can't argue with your choice of Vilmon. The thing that keeps him out of the bottom for me is that he's situationally awesome when he's handing out IW to other Paladins and you're facing an army that doesn't have much in the way of magic weapons. He's a tool you can put in when you're facing Mercs or Trolls or Legion and really mess up their plans. His value isn't so much in the charge as it is in the freestrike. That said, he's sorely missing some sort of second swing with that sword.

That's why Nicia was such a surprise to me, it's like she was designed for a different faction (Retribution) and was accidentally given to the Protectorate. She's our only naturally stealth model in the whole faction, the only one with anything like a gunblade (that's so Cygnar/Retribution), very high defensive stats for a Solo (seriously, way to make an Allegiant look like crap), about the only in-faction model with anything like Sprint (Thyra has overtake, the Templar has beat back, and the Dervish has side step, but there's a big difference between 1 or 2 inches and 7), and good stats all around.

Now I've made myself angry and confused again trying to figure out why Thyra doesn't have Sprint or Teleport or anything like that. I would have gladly given up Pursuit for Teleport. She's like a nerfed eMorghoul.

Jandrese, you keep talking like this (you know... logical)and your going to get a bad reputation.... trust me, lol

[tzeentchling]

To be fair, does any faction really really like their melee assassin casters? Garryth, Rhyas, eMorghoul? At least in terms of the caster actually assassinating the enemy caster? The only ones that seem to really work are either brute-force, in your face like Terminus, or ranged like eCaine, Kaelyssa, or Ravyn.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

If you try to use Thyra purely as a melee assassin, you're going to have a bad time.



Thyra is awesome. She's so much more than just stabbing stuff herself, and that's why she's way better than Rhyas/Garryth/eMorghoul.

[Exemplar's_Gaze]

I'm just going to throw this out there, but Bushwhack and Defensive Strike are not worth the extra point. He is only worth it with pSev. Which is sad, because Fire of Salvation gets taken with loads of other casters.

@Paradox
I actually almost chose Vilmon for the same reasons. MK2 just...I guess neutered is a good word for it, yeah, it neutered the guy. I will always reach for Nicia at the 3 point spot over him.

And to go with the flow of the thread, I'll post my favorites as opposed to what is considered the best:

Favorite Caster - Thyra, hands down. She is so much fun. A nerfed eMorghoul? My local Skorne expert WISHES eMorghoul could do what she can!

Least favorite Caster - Still pFeora, for the same reasons.

Favorite Heavy - Fire of Salvation. Hits like a truck and has so many movement shenanigans!

Least favorite Heavy - Crusader. Outside of the battleboxes and Harby Tier 4, he is just boring.

Favorite Light - Revenger. Tough arc node that can also kill. My casters almost never leave home without one.

Least favorite Light - Vigilant. Just not a fan of the little punching bag.

Favorite Unit - Still Daughters. Seriously, whats not to love?!

Least favorite Unit - Knights Exemplar. "Man they are gonna be so badass when they hit you!...oh they all died. Sweet 5 points gone."

Favorite Solo - Allegiant of the Fist. I love everything about them and use every chance to take them. Love them with my man, Vindy.

Least favorite Solo - Knights Exemplar Seneschal. See above Knights Exemplar quote substituting necessary pronouns and point cost.

Also, I want to give a shout-out to our Battle Engine. That thing is straight up money. It looks amazing, performs well, and is fun as hell!

[Bollster]

If you try to use Thyra purely as a melee assassin, you're going to have a bad time.



Thyra is awesome. She's so much more than just stabbing stuff herself, and that's why she's way better than Rhyas/Garryth/eMorghoul.

I see what you did there. I agree, Thyra's power comes from more than her ability to finish the job in person, which she can do. Carnage, Pursuit, Vengeance for DotF and a feat that essentially casts TK on every model in her control area means she wins many games without coming within 10 inches of the opposite caster. I think she's a tad underrated as a support caster with melee ability rather than a melee caster with support abilities.

[Soulblighter]

The Worst: The Vigilant. A light warjack with ARM 21...is like a puppy in a bulletproof vest. It may be safe, but it's not threatening anyone either. Two POW 11 attacks....what's that good for?

Yeah but Vigilants are still only 4 points. I dont think theyre as good as Dervishes, but theyre certainly better than Redeemers. Redeemers are 6 point focus hogs that mostly shoots blanks. It used to be that the Redeemer was the go-to jack to bond with efeora, but with addition of the the Judicator, thats no longer the case. The Redeemer is just pointless now.

I actually almost chose Vilmon for the same reasons. MK2 just...I guess neutered is a good word for it, yeah, it neutered the guy. I will always reach for Nicia at the 3 point spot over him.

Vilmons bad no doubt but I think the KE Seneschal and Allegiant are both worse. Then again the Errant Seneschal and Nicia are my standards for measuring what all the other Protectorate solos ought to be like.

I see what you did there. I agree, Thyra's power comes from more than her ability to finish the job in person, which she can do. Carnage, Pursuit, Vengeance for DotF and a feat that essentially casts TK on every model in her control area means she wins many games without coming within 10 inches of the opposite caster. I think she's a tad underrated as a support caster with melee ability rather than a melee caster with support abilities.

I find Thyra very underwhelming like shes missing one key spell or ability that would've made her "click" as a caster (why doesnt she have arcane assassin?). I agree shes like a nerfed eMorghoul. I would rate her as one of the weaker Protectorate casters, although I find her to be a lot better than Vindictus, who I absolutely hate.

[Bollster]

I find Thyra very underwhelming like shes missing one key spell or ability that would've made her "click" as a caster (why doesnt she have arcane assassin?). I agree shes like a nerfed eMorghoul. I would rate her as one of the weaker Protectorate casters, although I find her to be a lot better than Vindictus, who I absolutely hate.

That's a shame you think that, I find she's capable of assassinating most Hordes locks without too much bother thanks to SoD. Softer Warmachine casters are also scared of her but the tougher ones aren't, but then the tougher ones aren't generally scared of most melee assassins and really, that's what BoM is for. I rate Thyra as one of our better casters personally, allowing that I've only had experience with 6 or so of them. I'm surprised to see so many people praising Vindictus, I hadn't realised he was so well thought of by the hivemind.

[PG_circletakesthesquare]

Best caster: vindictus
Worst: amon

Best jack: sanctifier/reckoner
Worst: devout

Best solo: Nicia/covenant
Worst: order of the fist

Best unit: errants all day
Worst: sunburst crew/deliverers/cleansers..

[Baensidhe]

I see what you did there. I agree, Thyra's power comes from more than her ability to finish the job in person, which she can do. Carnage, Pursuit, Vengeance for DotF and a feat that essentially casts TK on every model in her control area means she wins many games without coming within 10 inches of the opposite caster. I think she's a tad underrated as a support caster with melee ability rather than a melee caster with support abilities.

This should be written in the Tactical Tips box for Thyra. You hear 'assassin' and you see her range and figure, 'wow, all I have to do is get within range and charge in'

And you will bounce off. Even fully loaded, she just doesn't hit hard enough; she can't do the job by herself, but she can finish it.

Baensidhe
Springloaded

[Vinsklortho]

To be fair, does any faction really really like their melee assassin casters? Garryth, Rhyas, eMorghoul? At least in terms of the caster actually assassinating the enemy caster? The only ones that seem to really work are either brute-force, in your face like Terminus, or ranged like eCaine, Kaelyssa, or Ravyn.

I like eMorghoul, but not as a personal assassin. I like running him with MK for Fate Walker and using him like Gorman and blinding heavies followed by walking away.

[Themainmenoth]

I proxied the Sanc last night and it did really well for me, I'm wonder if anyone thinks it could become one our best? or is it over priced reclaimer and crusader combo (in other words the reach and +1 speed with -1 pow on the weapon isn't worth the 1 point). I only had 1 game, but it won me that game was easily my MVP. I saw PG_circletakesthesquare put it up as best, what about everyone else, It's still on topic if it's best/worst jack.

[TheSilverOne]

Finally some people mentioning Sanctifier. I've been curious as hell about that jack. What's that one all about?

[PG_KestrelM1]

Finally some people mentioning Sanctifier. I've been curious as hell about that jack. What's that one all about?

It's in Wrath. Essentially it's a standard Reckoner chassis (SPD 5, Reach) but with an Open Fist instead of a Gun. Its main trick is that it collects souls from friendly models within 5". It also removes Incorporeal within 5", which is pretty marginal unless you're playing Cryx laden with Blood Witches or Blackbane's.

[Silverstar843]

Self-sufficient reach jack with a large threat range (for us). That's basically all it does.

[Themainmenoth]

It's a Crusader with a reach weapon, +1 speed -1 to it's main weapon, It collects souls like a Reclaimer and can give itself up 3 focus with it at the start of the next turn, It also has an ability that makes all enemy models lose incorporeal, both abilities have a 5" bubble around him.

[TheSilverOne]

That doesn't quite sound like the sort of jack I need, but I was just noticing no one was mentioning him up or down for the entire thread and I realized I knew nothing about it.

Also, I'm brand new to Menoth (and Warmachine in general) and I have to say this discussion has been incredibly useful in planning out how the future stages of my army are going to look.

[PG_KestrelM1]

He hasn't been released yet, so not a lot of people have experience with him.

I think he'll be a huge asset to all versions of Kreoss, both Feoras, and possibly Reznik - our usual suspects for people who like to run 'jacks but have other things they want to do with their focus.

[Themainmenoth]

I think it'll be our go to jack for our low focus casters, Thyra comes to mind too, and Reznik was who ran the Sanc' last night, Iron aggression and 3 free focus took out a jack, and reach grabbed the solo behind it, it was awesome

[Kazi]

I've found the HR is a bit of a noob stomper. Against new players he'll just stump them and you'll get a completely one sided game. Against veteran players however, it's a different story. Clouds are intimidating, but there are ways around them, sometimes literally (I've had plenty of people who just split their army in two and run along each side of the board. If it's fast they can outrun the HR's slow brick pretty easily.

I definitely won't argue that he punishes noobs. I try to avoid playing him vs. new people for that reason. But I've had a lot of success with HR vs the vets in my meta, and also at tournaments I've gone to. There are ways around the clouds, yes, but usually you lose something for taking that route. If you trample in, you've lost your initials and spent a fury/focus. If you go around, you're wasting time, frankly. And so on. I also find that the clouds are great not just for preventing an alpha strike but for mucking up your opponents options once the lines have clashed. After the first big combat turn, when you're flush with souls, I like to lay down clouds across the enemy's lines, dividing their forces and preventing them from assisting each other effectively. Anyways, I don't hold it against people who don't like him, he's got plenty of drawbacks, but he's really a staple for me and I do very well with him.

Original post:

Best Warcaster: Harby. It pains me to say this because pSev is and always will be my guy. But now that I'm traveling to more competitive-level tournaments I've come to the depressing conclusion that defensive upkeeps are pointless and traps. There is SO MUCH upkeep hate out there in Warmachine that you simply cannot depend on your Defenders Ward staying up, and without that spell available to him, Harby moves past him for the top spot in my book.
Worst Warcaster: Amon. Hilarious post by who ever said that Vindictus had one condition: Slog Fest. Very true, but True Path is so damn good and unique for our faction that it moves him past the monk, who is just begging, pleading, for more defense or a point of arm, or unyielding, or something. Synergy is great, but maybe I missed a memo, but I wasn't aware our jacks had problems with either accuracy or hitting power. Mobility is the more interesting spell, for me, on Amon.

Best Character Jack: The Avatar. If we could spend warjack points on him, could you really say that he would not be auto-include? The enemy shenanigans that his lack of a cortex and Spell Ward prevent is endless (TK, disruption, Domination, Parasite, etc) , and the Reach, and the focus efficiency, and . . . yeah.
Worst Character Jack: Scourge. Sure. Why not?

Best Heavy: Reckoner. How did this guy slip through the cracks? Kills casters for his 9-5.
Worst Heavy: Castigator. The Guardian at least has a theoretical niche.

Best Light: Repenter. Boosted Rat 7 pow 14 auto fire spray? For four points? On a solid chassis with Mat 8 Pow 15 chain weapon?
Worst Light: Vigilant. It is great that you're tough. Unfortunately, the point is to kill the enemy, not to avoid dying.

Best solo: Vassal. Because our jacks are our strongest point as a faction and he adds so much to it.
Worst solo: Allegient. I really think our solo stable is very impressive. The mechanic, I love him for one pt, and he's so good with the Vessel of J, which is a boss piece. Also going to be crucial with the Judicator. Paladins are WAY to good to be considered here, in my opinion, and Vilmon and his bro's have multiple lists in which they can really shine (Vindictus, Harby, Sevvy, anything with the Vessel), so they're out of the running. The Allegient is fun, but anything that can boost has an excellent chance of pasting him, even in a stance, and he's pillow fisted, so he gets the nod.

Best unit that isn't the choir: Temple Flameguard. Plus UA, always plus the UA. Such a solid tactical unit. I am trying SO HARD to stop crutching on them but I just can't. They're the strong centerpoint that every one of my lists maneuvers around on the tabletop. I have never been disappointed by their performance, not once in well over 100 games by now. (Except maybe that time they all got wiped out in a Thunderhead pulse, but that was my bad. Still feel guilty about that one. Poor guys).
Worst Unit: Cinerators. 8 pts for 5 attacks at Mat 7, so, subject to frequent missing, and not all that tough. I find a full unit of TFG plus UA has more staying power, threat range, damage output, and assasination potential than a unit of Cinerators.

[Charming]

The thing that makes Sanctifier good is that it collect souls and thus relieves our often focus starved warcasters quite a good bit. You don't have to bring a squishy solo with a big target above his head and instead get that amazing focus generating mechanic in a heavily armored chassi. Magical weapon and anti-incorporeal are just highly situational gravy. It has a given place in many lists in which I have previously had a reclaimer. Feora (epic, probably prime as well) is gonna love that guy to pieces, same goes for Vindictus and probably pSevvy, Harby and the list goes on.

[Outbreak]

Magical weapon and anti-incorporeal are just highly situational gravy.

you wanna talk about gravy? how about the fact it comes in a jack kit with the reckoner? now THAT'S a convenient bonus, no more expensive metal kit, now we can get the reckoner cheaper with the added bonus of the sanctifier. Oh, and the castigator comes with them too, not bad but not a huge deal IMO.

[Sinsation]

Best caster: Severius 1. Eye of Menoth is crazy good. Enough focus to run jack heavy if you want, or sling spells. Sacred ward on him is a great defensive measure. Defender's ward, and death sentence? Great balance swings. Even if he has to get his hands dirty, throw a 1 focus (heirophant) death sentence on an enemy at effective focus 9, and go in with mat 5 rerolls on a pow 14 reach magic weapon. Not too shabby!
Favorite caster: Feora 1. Blazing effigy, flamethrowers, wall of fire, ignite, feat? Fire it up! Not to mention the crazy assassinations she's capable of with engine of destruction.
Worst caster/least favorite : Amon ad-raza. Losing his meditative stance seemed unnecessary, even if it wasn't used much. It gave him this cool little flavor ability. He lost tough too, and for a battle monk just seems underwhelming at mat 7, def 16, and arm 14. Why this high-ranking allegiant lost weapon master, tough, a point of speed, and shifting sands stance is strange.

Favorite light : Devout. The same pow 13 as all our other lights, spell barrier, defensive strike, shield guard, great defensive stats, and reach. Maybe not the best, but favorite.
Least favorite light : Vigilant, but that doesn't say much. Our lights are sweeeet.

Favorite heavy : Reckoner. He shoots, he smacks, he debuffs, he's fast, and he assaults. Vanquisher a second, avatar third.
Least favorite heavy : Castigator, followed by Guardian, for reasons mentioned. Like lights though, take it with a grain of salt. Choir still makes them vicious.

Favorite solo : Errant seneschal. Great passive buffs to a great unit.
Least favorite solo : Knight exemplar seneschal. 3 points is expensive. Devastating if he gets there, but restoration doesn't save him as much as just clear off a random point or two of damage your opponent caused by a lucky shot. Allegiant as well.

Favorite unit : Temple flameguard + UA, and then Errants. Errants are better, but the flameguard have that special place in me heart, arr.
Least favorite unit : Knights Exemplar for pretty much the reasons Dox stated. Not as fast, single wound, vulnerable to plinking and simultaneous attacks, and their melee, while strong, is a single attack without reach at speed 5.

[Themainmenoth]

That doesn't quite sound like the sort of jack I need, but I was just noticing no one was mentioning him up or down for the entire thread and I realized I knew nothing about it.

Also, I'm brand new to Menoth (and Warmachine in general) and I have to say this discussion has been incredibly useful in planning out how the future stages of my army are going to look.

I'm glad I started this Thread, to Hear people are making use of it makes me all tingly inside =P But it's also helped me a lot as well, and convinced me to make the plunge and get more units (I was very Jack heavy up to now)

[Baensidhe]

When I saw the Sanctifier, I thought...Thyra says Hello. She needs all her Focus for her spells, recasting Silence of Death if she's playing against Hordes, and she keeps moving all over the board so it's sometimes inconvenient to have to keep within control area of a 'jack, but there's a heavy I can have just run off by itself surrounded by some souls...I mean, troopers and still be able to boost or buy some attacks. And unlike the Reclaimer, you can't just pick him off. I mean, give a Sanctifier a Choir, maybe a min unit of Zealots, and it practically runs itself.

Baensidhe
Of course, I could be wrong....naaahhhhh

[tzeentchling]

Then again the Errant Seneschal and Nicia are my standards for measuring what all the other Protectorate solos ought to be like.

I'm honestly surprised you think the Errant Seneschal is one of the best solos, since I think he's in contention as one of the worst. He brings very little to the table that the Errants don't already provide. Assault? It's ok, but with a Rat 7 Pow 10 gun? And now he's way out there in the front, easily targeted. Hunter is nice, but again, it's a weak gun. Giving it to Errants is ok, but at Rat 6/Range 10/Pow 10, they're still not killing much out there. If they're shooting at something, they're probably going to get charged next turn, and real ranged units will still wipe the floor with them at range. Call to Sacrifice sounds nice, but really just provides a way to get the rest of my Errants killed quicker.

Quite frankly, he doesn't bring enough for 2 points at all. I would gladly take any other 2 point solo we have instead of him, and every time I've played him he's been uninspiring.

[jandrese]

Hunter also works on charges, so it's pretty nice if you play with a decent amount of forests on the table.

Errants may have generally mediocre shooting, but with the Seneschal at least they almost never suffer penalties to their shots. About the only thing they have to worry about is elevation. Blessed ignore spell effects and Hunter ignores cover and concealment.

[Themainmenoth]

I'm honestly surprised you think the Errant Seneschal is one of the best solos, since I think he's in contention as one of the worst. He brings very little to the table that the Errants don't already provide. Assault? It's ok, but with a Rat 7 Pow 10 gun? And now he's way out there in the front, easily targeted. Hunter is nice, but again, it's a weak gun. Giving it to Errants is ok, but at Rat 6/Range 10/Pow 10, they're still not killing much out there. If they're shooting at something, they're probably going to get charged next turn, and real ranged units will still wipe the floor with them at range. Call to Sacrifice sounds nice, but really just provides a way to get the rest of my Errants killed quicker.

Quite frankly, he doesn't bring enough for 2 points at all. I would gladly take any other 2 point solo we have instead of him, and every time I've played him he's been uninspiring.

I'm not sure, but I think he was listing for Worst solo to best solo for the comparison sake, like (oh well theis solo isn't as good as Nicia, but still is way better then the Errant Seneschal.) but then again, i'm not the one who said that.

[Alzer]

At first glance Sanctifier was a kinda "Meh' choice. On second glance it was solid. I proxied it a couple times with Vindictus to be my dedicated heavy-killer and...yeah it's pretty awesome. I'd take it over a Crusader + Reclaimer any day. The +1 Speed and reach make such an immense difference. The magic weapon will only matter ocassionally but when it does, oh boy will it matter.

Honestly it's a jack ALL of our casters will like having, some will just appreciate it more than others. A certain Vice Scrutator with a hard-on for running tons of infantry comes to mind.

I think I'm gonna start running a Castigator around and causing hilarity with power attacks and explosions. I'm getting two of the alt-heavy kit, and one will be a Sanctifier, so the other will swap between Castigator/Reckoner. Honestly the Reckoner is solid, but I find the Castigator WAY more fun to play even if it's not our most effective jack.

[Themainmenoth]

Honestly the Reckoner is solid, but I find the Castigator WAY more fun to play even if it's not our most effective jack.

Amen to that my Brother! haha

[Outbreak]

same reason i want to run a vigilant, sometimes you need to say to hell with winning, go king kong style, and toss some nubs around like rag dolls ^_^. Even if they do just stand back up and charge you...

[Soulblighter]

He brings very little to the table that the Errants don't already provide. Assault? It's ok, but with a Rat 7 Pow 10 gun?

Errant Seneschal is decent for 2 points. Unlike most solos he doesnt suffer from being way too easy to kill, in fact hes quite annoying to kill, and he gives Hunter to the Errants which is a great ability. It basically gives indirect fire to Errants and lets them attack models they normally wouldnt have LoS too. Plus a ranged weapon with RAT7 and magical weapon makes him ideal for sniping pesky incorporeal models.

[Outbreak]

I generally thought Rat7 was pretty good, its not elite like eirys's 9, but its certainly isn't bad IMO. The issue with him is he fills a specific roll, and if you don't have use for that roll to be filled than he's going to let you down. My store has a number of hordes players,, including one very competitive circle player, so hunter for me is great to have versus him, but otherwise, or when building a "takes all challengers" list he's not terribly necessary, there are other ways we can spend the 2 points to do a wider variety of things.

[paradox]

I generally thought Rat7 was pretty good, its not elite like eirys's 9, but its certainly isn't bad IMO.

FYI, the vast majority of ranged models have RAT5, maybe 6. RAT5 is average. RAT 6 is good. RAT7-8 is elite. RAT9 is pretty singular. It's alot like MAT9. Not many models (Vilmon) have MAT9.

"Pretty good" describing RAT7 is pretty much an understatement.

Pet peeve. People look at stuff like a raw RAT7 and saying "meh" drive me nuts. EE seny is a great shot for a 2pt solo, espcially considering he has a blessed bow and hunter, which makes his RAT more like 7+.

[Snipafist]

I generally thought Rat7 was pretty good, its not elite like eirys's 9, but its certainly isn't bad IMO. The issue with him is he fills a specific roll, and if you don't have use for that roll to be filled than he's going to let you down. My store has a number of hordes players,, including one very competitive circle player, so hunter for me is great to have versus him, but otherwise, or when building a "takes all challengers" list he's not terribly necessary, there are other ways we can spend the 2 points to do a wider variety of things.

I'm not a huge fan of the Errant Seneschal, but he basically completes the Errant Death Star. He allows the Errants to be a credible shooting threat to anything except naturally high DEF troops (14+), regardless of buffs or cover/concealment. He's far from mandatory, but if you want to bring the unit up to a halfway-decent shooting unit rather than a "well it gives them something to do on the way up and Quick Work can be neat" unit, he's indispensable. He's also good at camping objectives in do-or-die situations.

The Vigilant is also better than a lot of people think. I'm never going to claim he's absolutely amazing, but in general he's not there to bring the pain with melee attacks. Neither is he there to be a bunker for your support models (with Girded). He can try to fulfill these roles when circumstances dictate, but in general he's better used as a cheap durable power attacker. He happily slams and throws (medium or smaller bases) or weapon locks (anything) things and stays surprisingly durable due to his ARM21. If you need something that ties up larger foes or displaces enemy models through slams and throws, he's your guy. Definitely not a "must have" in any case, but can be very useful in the right situations.

[spelljammer]

Interesting thread. I really like to see others perspectives.

Best Warcaster: This is a hard one for me. I feel like we have a bunch of Ok casters. Probably the Harbinger (who is awesome).
Worst Warcaster: Amon. Please redo him, maybe the third time will be the charm.
Favorite Warcaster: My absolute favorite caster is The Testament. He is also my most disappointing one. I absolutely love the model, and the concept. I don't feel like he made the transition to MK II all that well. There are so many things they could have done with him. Why they left him with Dust to Dust (an absolutely awful spell for him), but took away Soul Storm will always mystify me. Even with all that said, he is *the* caster I play the most and the caster that draws me to Menoth.

Best Heavy Jack: Reckoner
Worst Heavy Jack: Not sure. I find a use for all of them.
Favorite Heavy Jack: Fire of Salvation
Most frustrating: The Avatar. Yeah, he is a beat stick, and I play him often. However, I really dislike the random focus, and I just don't understand why he is the only jack in the game that can't be a part of a battle group.

Best Light Jack: Repenter/Redeemer/Revenger
Worst Light Jack: Not sure, I haven't played enough with a lot of the other light jacks. If I had to pick one I'd pick the Devout. I own 6 Devouts from MK I. Loved playing them with Amon. Now both Amon and the Devouts see no use.

Best Unit: KEE
Worst Unit: KE (I just can never justify bringing them. I agree with all the points that Pardox made).
Favorite: KEE
Dark Horse: I love the Deliverers. These guys offer so much flexibility. I never regret taking them.

Best Solo Offense: EE Seneschal
Best Solo Support: Vassal or Book
Worst Solo: Vilmon. They way over nerfed him.
Most Disappointing: The Hierophant. I think he is the worst war caster attachement in the game. Obviously others feel differently :-)

[vvp]

Most frustrating: The Avatar. Yeah, he is a beat stick, and I play him often. However, I really dislike the random focus, and I just don't understand why he is the only jack in the game that can't be a part of a battle group.

the most obvious off the top of my head is eSevvy