Best and worst of Menoth

[Baensidhe]

If you play against Circle a lot, the Seneschal's Hunter and his ability to give it to the Errants is a steal at 2 points. If the EE have the UA, then every forest is a screen for then, but they can shoot right through it. I think the Errant Seneschal only suffers because he's not the figurative engine of destruction the Knight Seneschal Exemplar is.

I don't understand how people can think the Paladin is okay while the Seneschal, also a Weapons Master, with a Blessed Magical weapon, Assault, a ranged attack, and some really decent speed isn't.

Baensidhe
Jerry Sandusky deserves a Wrack

[Soulblighter]

Worst Warcaster: Amon. Please redo him, maybe the third time will be the charm.

LOL. So funny. Yeah I still dont think Amon hit his stride in MK2. At least PP got rid of the annoying stop-and-go Amon from MK1 and made him a lot more mobile. But I still miss Meditative Stance and Sand Blast in the worst way.

The issue with him is he fills a specific roll, and if you don't have use for that roll to be filled than he's going to let you down.

I cant say that ive ever been let down by him. Hes a real pain for the opponent to kill as long as he stays near the Errants, and hes got very high rat (certainly the highest rat youll ever see on a Protectorate model). The mediocre P+S seems to be a turnoff for a lot of people who prefer our harder hitting solos, but people tend to forget that the role of Errants is mostly anti-infantry and tarpitting, not killing warjacks. The Errant Seneschal does a great job of helping Errants tie up a portion of the opponent's army.

[jandrese]

Most Disappointing: The Hierophant. I think he is the worst war caster attachement in the game. Obviously others feel differently :-)

I can't really disagree here. Compared to all of the other attachments he is the most limited and the most difficult to use properly (always have him facing sideways ahead of my caster), but he's also the only one available to the Protectorate, so there's not much you can do about it. I don't know why he has to be so bad compared to the Squire or Wishnailer, but apparently it just has to be that way. He's arguably better than the Dog and a little less situational than a Skarlock in some circumstances, but overall he's disappointing.

[Charming]

At least he could get stone Moses frickin one per game skarlock ability

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

At least he could get stone Moses frickin one per game skarlock ability

It's funny because Troll players wish the runebearer was more like the Hierophant

[Themainmenoth]

The Hierophant is one thing to me, A mobile up keep, he makes most buff spells 1 focus (aka the cost of up keeping a spell) and allows you to bounce that up keep around each turn, Is ignite on my Crusader? nope now it's on my Exemplars, is DW on the Avatar? nope is now on the TFG. he also makes spells that cost 2 into basically up-keeps, Engine of destruction, 1 focus, Mobility? Purification? 1 focus, It's great WITH the wrack since those for said spell are now out right FREE. Reznik or PFeora with 6 focus AND Engine of Destruction? YES PLEASE =D

[SnakeEyes]

It's funny because Troll players wish the runebearer was more like the Hierophant

What?! Why?

[Kazi]

The Hierophant is like Rhoven and Co. We complain endlessly about how they pale in comparison to similar models from other factions, all the while fielding them constantly and with good results.

[Soulblighter]

The Hierophant is like Rhoven and Co. We complain endlessly about how they pale in comparison to similar models from other factions, all the while fielding them constantly and with good results.

Well its not like we have another warcaster attachment. But if we did have another one, we likely wouldnt use the hierophant anymore, because it is quite frankly bad.

[vvp]

Well its not like we have another warcaster attachment. But if we did have another one, we likely wouldnt use the hierophant anymore, because it is quite frankly bad.

then use the two points somewhere else.

[SnakeEyes]

Well its not like we have another warcaster attachment. But if we did have another one, we likely wouldnt use the hierophant anymore, because it is quite frankly bad.

True. I use the Hierophant occasionally(after taking Wracks, also), because I don't have any other option. Like Rhoven, doesn't mean it's as good as other factions' equivalent options, just that it is what it is and I'm forced to work with what I have.

[paradox]

I get alot of use out of the guaranteed extra focus for casting every round. I get a good amount of use out of raneg booster for suprise distance offense spells and hotswapping buffs. I get occasional use out of the healing.

Sure, Wracks are 3 for 1. They may last you all game, or may give you only 1 focus (pull 1st, it blows, enemy kills other two). Generally, I find wracks will last me most of the game, more or less. Some games go great, some not so much. They DO leash you to certain araes of the table, though. And at the same times exclude the area around them, which is an undeniable downside. But hey, focus for a pt!

Paying two for a hierophant is much more guanteed. Unless you're Thyra, I find he is MUCH less of a leash than wracks. He does not pose a threat to you, he can heal you, and he makes hotswapping buffs or squeezing out one more spell super easy. The +2" range in invaluable when sniping out an offensive spell or when hotswapping. I get more than 3 focus worth out of him in virtually every game. The healing has saved the game for me at least once in recent memory. Plus, I love the *** looks people give me when I use spells at the +2" range (it's that far???).

He is quite solid for his points and facilitates a great amount of focus/spell flexibility in all my lists. I can't imagine playing without him in mosts lists. When I do, I feel gimped. No doubt a crutch.

EDIT: Also want to point out that the hierophant is in a faction with: Choir, Vassals, Reclaimers, Wracks. We have ALOT of focus-helpers and support already. It's a balance issue as much as anything. In another faction, the hierophant may be terrible. In Menoth, he fits in just fine.

[jandrese]

The only caveat with the +2 RNG is that most of our early (Mk I mostly) spells got -2 RNG just because. We have a lot of RNG 8 attack spells. Pushing buffs up to RNG 8 helps though, a lot of people forget just how short RNG 6 is.

Our new casters that steal spells from other factions however see a lot of value in the RNG boost. Pushing a RNG 10 spell to RNG 12 is nice.

That said, I hate how his pseudofocus can ONLY be used to cast spells. At least with the Wrack you can buy an attack or a boost or even just camp armor. Only the Skarlock is similarly limited, and it's providing up to 3 focus worth of psuedofocus, and does its thing outside of the caster's activation opening up opportunities for buff swapping.

[paradox]

In the totallity of a list, when I'm running hierophant + wracks, with choir and vassals, and possibly a reclaimer, I have no regrets about the hierophant. Only love.

Even sans choir and vassals, I love him. I start most list with hierophant + wracks. If necessary, I often cut wracks first, as they tend to be a little less reliable, and only do one thing (provide focus).

[Gaston]

The Hierophant is like Rhoven and Co. We complain endlessly about how they pale in comparison to similar models from other factions, all the while fielding them constantly and with good results.

Yeah, that does seem to happen a lot. Although I have never missed him before, I am somewhat jealous of Wishnailer now, I feel that his abilities would have been a major boon with Kreoss3.

[Alzer]

I LOVE hucking spells around, so any extra focus I can get is a major boon. Being able to upkeep Defender's Ward, cast True Path AND Rift really opens up options. Then throw in a Wrack to Sacrificial Lamb and give my jacks some love too. Same goes for Reznik rocking his Upkeeps and being able to swap an Ignite and throw out a Perdition.

[jandrese]

Wishnailer would have replaced the Hierophant for me with every caster but the Harbinger and maybe High Reclaimer (I would be torn between not getting the pseudofocus because I have no upkeeps and the Signs and Portents that he would love so very very much on Ashes to Ashes with his piddly FOC 5). There is just no contest. Having Reznik not always whiff on Perdition could have been a game changer. Having Thyra suddenly able to get Stranglehold to work would have been huge. pSevvy with it and the BoV casting Ashes to Ashes would probably be borderline broken (only saved by the fact that you can roll a 1 for the extra hit still). Having Chasten not totally suck at knocking off Arcane Shield would be nice too.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Wishnailer would have replaced the Hierophant for me with every caster but the Harbinger and maybe High Reclaimer (I would be torn between not getting the pseudofocus because I have no upkeeps and the Signs and Portents that he would love so very very much on Ashes to Ashes with his piddly FOC 5). There is just no contest. Having Reznik not always whiff on Perdition could have been a game changer. Having Thyra suddenly able to get Stranglehold to work would have been huge. pSevvy with it and the BoV casting Ashes to Ashes would probably be borderline broken (only saved by the fact that you can roll a 1 for the extra hit still). Having Chasten not totally suck at knocking off Arcane Shield would be nice too.

Buuuuut we didn't get access to him, so what's the point of complaining? The Hierophant is good for the faction.

[Soulblighter]

The only caveat with the +2 RNG is that most of our early (Mk I mostly) spells got -2 RNG just because. We have a lot of RNG 8 attack spells. Pushing buffs up to RNG 8 helps though, a lot of people forget just how short RNG 6 is.

Yeah but the counter-argument to that has always been that if youre using a Hierophant youre almost certainly using arcnodes too. That makes the ability kind of self-defeating. The Hierophant really shouldve boosted the range of channeled spells by +2".

[Stinkmeaner]

Buuuuut we didn't get access to him, so what's the point of complaining? The Hierophant is good for the faction.

The point is game BALANCE... for the same points, the other factions are getting better models... Nobody is saying all the models need to have the same EXACT stats, but at least make them comparable. As it stands, we flat out have the WORST caster atachment. Also, as a side note, has anyone ever noticed that the Cryx Necrosurgeon heals friendly warrior models (casters) for d6.... In addition to having offensive field effects. Which has been one of my gripes all along with Menoth, we have stuff that is subpar to other factions, AND it performs stuff other than just support. Yeah, Heirophant is bad cpmpared to Skarlock, and once you look at Skarlock, Necrosurgeon, Withershadow, and War Witches, in addition to having offensive capabilities, they cast free spells, upkeep for free, allow re-rolls, and allocate extra focus. It's embarassing

[spelljammer]

the most obvious off the top of my head is eSevvy

I have difficulty seeing how the Avatar bonded to Epic Severius would be broken (it can only negate damage from one attack), but allowing the other character jacks to be bonded, or to have 5 focus (Death Jack by default or Nemo with Overcharge) is some how less.

To each each their own. We miss out on a lot by not being able to have the Avatar in a battle group. But I don't want to derail the thread. So, back on topic.

Best UA: KEE UA
Worst UA: Flame Guard Cleanser UA (bah, he is so bad I was actually hoping that Colossal would contain a rewrite of the rules for him).

I think some runner up heavies are BoM and Vanquisher. I'm really curious about the Sanctifier. The reading on its Cenotaph is a little vague. It can be interpreted as "must" or "up to all" when removing the souls. I haven't checked, does anyone know if this has been clarified? I'm heading over to the rules forum to see if I can dig up an answer.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

The point is game BALANCE... for the same points, the other factions are getting better models... Nobody is saying all the models need to have the same EXACT stats, but at least make them comparable. As it stands, we flat out have the WORST caster atachment.

You're right. I think we need to nerf all the other caster attachments so all factions have solid, useful, well priced caster attachments.

But you know what I'm not going to do? I'm not going to throw a fit about life being unfair because other people have cooler toys. I'm going to use what I have available, specifically our warcaster attachment that's worth those two points every time.

Really, I can't believe this is what protectorate players are trying to champion. Why don't we wail about something that's actually bad? Like Cleanser, Deliverers or Cinerators? What about Castigators and Guardians?

[Alzer]

We have choir.

Commence other-faction crying, they got mechanics for their prime jack-support. Go ask Cryx how they feel about running Jack-heavy without Mortenebra.

Also it's not like we're short on good 2pt solos by any means.

Anyhow you guys have turned this rather-productive thread into a whiny-other-side of the fence party. Stop it, or I'm telling the Scrutators you lack faith.


Spelljammer: considering how tough the Avatar is to kill to begin with, just saying "you don't get that damage roll" is pretty devastating. Vision + Enliven means you get to IGNORE the charge damage roll, and walk away after their second attack. Not to mention he's ARM 21 to begin with.

[paradox]

Skarlock, Necrosurgeon, Withershadow, and War Witches,

Skarlock casts spells. Does not heal or extend range. Has to limit itself to buffs or expose itself to go offensive. Thus, the skarlock is actually very limited and ANY offensive use typically results in swift death. A smart cryx player uses it to help cycle buffs. Dumb cryx players get it killed trying to go on the offense.
Hierophant is strictly buff. He has no desire to go on the offense. Thus, he's fool-proof in that way and better/easier to use / less conflicted.

Necrosurgeon does what for offense? Bringing bodies back /= offensive field effect. It is anti-attrition. Necrosurgeon need a unit to buff for that effect.
Hierophant requires no units to help its 'caster. It is not split between helping the unit and helping the caster. It just helps the caster. Simple.

Withershadow combine is great, no doubt.
Rhoven can buff/debuff and guards can melee. Not as great as WSC, but he does not lack "offensive capabilities" as you put it.

Warwitch siren.
Reclaimer solo.

[vvp]

I have difficulty seeing how the Avatar bonded to Epic Severius would be broken (it can only negate damage from one attack), but allowing the other character jacks to be bonded, or to have 5 focus (Death Jack by default or Nemo with Overcharge) is some how less.

awareness + gaze.

[Stinkmeaner]

You're right. I think we need to nerf all the other caster attachments so all factions have solid, useful, well priced caster attachments.

But you know what I'm not going to do? I'm not going to throw a fit about life being unfair because other people have cooler toys. I'm going to use what I have available, specifically our warcaster attachment that's worth those two points every time.

Really, I can't believe this is what protectorate players are trying to champion. Why don't we wail about something that's actually bad? Like Cleanser, Deliverers or Cinerators? What about Castigators and Guardians?

The minute you start actually comparing stats and complaining about what is "bad" for it's points, you realize that Menoth has a good bit to complain about, and doing so will get you basically ostracized for having a different opinion than one that agrees with the "collective" that seems to be happy with models, and could seemingly care less about stats. Sorry, but thats about what its like. I understand people love the faction, but to sit there and say that models are FINE when they are clearly NOT on the same power level with similar models of the same point cost, then they are in fact NOT balanced. The game we play is called Warmachine/ Hordes, not Menoth, so balancing stuff "in faction" makes very little sense, you have to balance models with the rest of the game. If not, there will be disparities.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

The minute you start actually comparing stats and complaining about what is "bad" for it's points, you realize that Menoth has a good bit to complain about, and doing so will get you basically ostracized for having a different opinion than one that agrees with the "collective" that seems to be happy with models, and could seemingly care less about stats. Sorry, but thats about what its like. I understand people love the faction, but to sit there and say that models are FINE when they are clearly NOT on the same power level with similar models of the same point cost, then they are in fact NOT balanced. The game we play is called Warmachine/ Hordes, not Menoth, so balancing stuff "in faction" makes very little sense, you have to balance models with the rest of the game. If not, there will be disparities.

And yet, despite having "underpowered" models and unbalanced choices, lots of people do really well with the faction, and there are already at least 2 protectorate players that have won large convention tournaments and qualified for the Warmachine Weekend invitational, the biggest and most prestigious Warmachine tournament in the states, possibly the world.

Statistics are one thing, success on the table is entirely another. Sometimes (a lot of times), the worth of a model within the context of a list is worth a whole lot more than it's raw stats would suggest.

So, what's the difference? Why do so many players do so well with the faction, but you don't?

[Stinkmeaner]

And yet, despite having "underpowered" models and unbalanced choices, lots of people do really well with the faction, and there are already at least 2 protectorate players that have won large convention tournaments and qualified for the Warmachine Weekend invitational, the biggest and most prestigious Warmachine tournament in the states, possibly the world.

Statistics are one thing, success on the table is entirely another. Sometimes (a lot of times), the worth of a model within the context of a list is worth a whole lot more than it's raw stats would suggest.

So, what's the difference? Why do so many players do so well with the faction, but you don't?

See, and this is where things get derailed. Why do people assume I do poorly? I have played in 2 CONs, and done well in them, but have not won. I win almost all of the local events. But that is neither here nor there. When arguing stats, you need to look at NUMBERS, not success of a faction. There are too many variables when determining outcomes based on that information, like the amount of players in said tournament playing a certain faction has a DIRECT outcome on it's chances to win. I think some people are just blindly loyal to PP and refuse to admit that thgeir faction has any flaws. So you (the player base) create a scenario where too many people bring up the exception to any rules. I.E. Say someone makes a blanket statement about Cinerators being sub-par, you will get 10 people talking about times they ran them and did really well, leaving OUT the fact their opponents were horrible, and their dice were hot. Or they will talk about a FEW cornersace sceenarios where they are decent, like with DW and Vindictus. And here-in lies the problem, when everyone is so quick to point out the flaws in peoples arguments and debates, they are not LISTENING and looking for themselves to see if there is any validity. So talk about how I need to play another faction, and keep talking about how I am horrible despite having never played me, all it does is show your own insecurities towards knowing how to do statistical analysis.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

See, and this is where things get derailed. Why do people assume I do poorly? I have played in 2 CONs, and done well in them, but have not won. I win almost all of the local events. But that is neither here nor there. When arguing stats, you need to look at NUMBERS, not success of a faction. There are too many variables when determining outcomes based on that information, like the amount of players in said tournament playing a certain faction has a DIRECT outcome on it's chances to win.

So you do well with the faction, you place in lots of local events, yet by looking at the raw numbers you've convinced yourself that, despite your success, we're not a good faction.

Gotcha.

[Alzer]

Alright guys lighten up.

Stinkmeiner. I am curious why you stick with Protectorate if you don't feel the numbers are up to snuff and have apparently little in the way of attachment to the faction. Why not switch over to a Cryx army (or whatever catches you fancy) instead? I've started one myself (and I'm a Protectorate fanboy) just to have a breath of something dead and twisted to mix things up.

The strength and weakness of this thread are that it's all opinion based. Because of that we get to see a wide range of feelings from players experienced and new, strong and weak (*raises hand*). Let's keep that in mind and get back on track shall we?

[DaNDeMeNTo]

armlocks from behind! MUAHAHA!
if the vigilant gets behind anything then armlock it, and your 4 point light immobolizes an X point whatever, since even if it breaks the lock it cant turn around to hit him.

I'm trying to bring a few things I've read about armlocks in this thread in line with the rules. Re-reading the rules and inferring from comments like the one above, is the following interpretation correct?

Model A armlocks Model B from behind. Model B activates and cannot advance due to being locked. Because changing facing is only possible during a model's advance, Model B cannot turn to face Model A. Even if Model B breaks the lock, it cannot therefore buy additional attacks to attack Model A. If there are no viable targets in Model B's meele range, it's activation ends.

Correct?
If so - amazing, I didn't know that before. Probably gonna buy a vigilant soon :-D

[Bollster]

You are correct DaNDeMeNTo. That's why, if you can set that up, it's really nasty on expensive jacks with a little trooper like the Vigilant.

[Charming]

I think this will make the vigilant much more worthwhile to bring with the introduction of colossals. They have to face something directly if they want to use their shooting effectively on a target, but that might leave them quite vulnerable to being armlocked by the vigilant who has previously had trouble getting behind the target.

I just wish we could place it like the woldwtccher or it could jump like the minute man!

[Craaag]

Heirophant. If I hadn't put him in as worst solo I think in retrospect I'd put him there. At least I'd give him worst warcaster attachment if we had more than one option.

Reasons. Wracks are a point cheaper and basically give you 3 turns of an extra Focus which often does the job anyways for a game and if not well it was only 1 pt. When you compare this guy to a Squire it almost screams that he should have been a 1 pt option. Then I would take him every game over Wracks.

My biggest reason though is that in this faction of support pieces up the wazoo I never have the points left over for him. Choir, Vassal, Covenant, Rhupert, Mechanic (needed with VOJ pretty much), even our U/A's are auto includes due to what they bring their respective units = even more support premium paid at the unit level! Now I get down to the nitty gritty trying to pick and choose what I need in my 35 pt list and I'm lucky if I get a pint left over for Wracks and almost never room for the Heirophant.

To me those other abilities just aren't worth the extra point over Wracks.

[Sinsation]

But that is neither here nor there. When arguing stats, you need to look at NUMBERS, not success of a faction. There are too many variables when determining outcomes based on that information, like the amount of players in said tournament playing a certain faction has a DIRECT outcome on it's chances to win. So talk about how I need to play another faction, and keep talking about how I am horrible despite having never played me, all it does is show your own insecurities towards knowing how to do statistical analysis.

Therein lies your own problem. Statistical analysis doesn't help with cinerators, because they aren't able to be taken as an army alone. Beyond that, it's the idea that there is no covariance (can't remember the proper term atm, it's early) between different army options. You can't do a simple argument and say that strength(cinerators) + strength(bastions) = strength (army with cinerators and bastions). You can't look directly at thosen numbers, because as you said, there are too many variables when determining outcomes based on that information, particularly when many are unobservable, and where they can be correlated with skill levels and playstyles of individual players. If you want to pull out SAS or STATA and start working on it, feel free to. Don't forget to include every individual player, their mood, time of day, amount they ate before the game, faction they were playing, the unplayed list, previous games in that tournament, as well as figure out all of the information on the effect of every opposing model when cinerators are played in a list against them.

If you want to do statistical analysis truly, you've got a hell of a lot of work ahead of you.

[SnakeEyes]

I don't know why you guys get so blown out of shape with Stinkmeaner's opinions. I find his postings a refreshing contrast to the otherwise "all is well" nature of the forums. It's good to have a little well argued challenge to common opinion and a good advocate for the Protectorate.

You don't get PP or the Protectorate player base to think about the competitiveness of Protectorate models by going "la la, everthing is great!" all the time. I'm a strong advocate for finding the niche for our weak stuff and making it competitively playable but it doesn't mean I wouldn't want those models to have better rules.

I like when Protectorate players point out poor rules and advocate for better stuff. That's part of our job as Menites - laud the good stuff but pan the bad stuff in hopes that PP makes changes to them down the road. Or, as is their way, create a new model to fill the weakness.

I dislike it when I see a speculative post about "Wouldn't it be cool if model x could do so and so. But PP should never give that to us, that would be too powerful." F that. I want Protectorate to have every broken thing it can get. Because other factions have and are going to get their OP'ed stuff as well. No need for us to champion against our own faction. There are plenty of others to do that.

[paradox]

I don't know why you guys get so blown out of shape with Stinkmeaner's opinions. I find his postings a refreshing contrast to the otherwise "all is well" nature of the forums. It's good to have a little well argued challenge to common opinion and a good advocate for the Protectorate.

Could be because he's asking for statisical analysis, but offers none?
Could be because he constantly advocates "all is suck?"
Could be because he expects others to take his word as unbiased scientific proof, and rejects any positive counter-arguments as pure speculation, ancedotal evidence, or over-optimism, regardless of its actual value?

It's one thing to posit an opinion. It's another to posit an opinion as fact and reject all other opinions as worthless, unless they happen to agree with you.

This is why, when I post about something, I almost always precede it or qualify it with "I find" or "this works for me" or "I like" or "I think" or "I feel" or similar.

Read his last few posts above. They are asserting his opinion as fact and rejecting all counter-arguements out of hand.

It's not what he's saying. It's how it's being said.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

I agree to an extent. Do we have **** models? ABSOLUTELY. I have to problem with people saying things are bad. You will never EVER see me arguing for stuff like Cinerators, cleansers, etc. But if I think the model in question is good, then I'm absolutely going to argue it.

I just don't agree in any way that we're lacking as a faction overall, which is why I disagree so profoundly with Stinkmeaner.

[Stinkmeaner]

What I DID say was that you can't base a models quality on play alone due to factors that are NOT based on stats alone. It is a simple fact that if 12 Cryx playrs and 2 Menoth players enter the same tournament, that if the skill is CLOSE to being balanced, Cryx has a better chance of placing due to sheer averages. Show me where I have called anyone any names, or attacked them for having an opinion.... Please, and NOT some twisted version, quote me directly..... People are so disrespectful on this forum, and for what? because I say things that are not popular?

I just want Menoth to good across the board. Not just menoth, ALL factions really. And the reason I don't attack people, are because my issue is not with the community (though you guys have been kind of rude to me at times) my issue is with the playtesters and the devs. They make the calls that in my mind don't make any sense. Which is why I post here and not on Focus+Fury, or Muse on Minis, or any of the other gaming forums.

[Stinkmeaner]

I agree to an extent. Do we have **** models? ABSOLUTELY. I have to problem with people saying things are bad. You will never EVER see me arguing for stuff like Cinerators, cleansers, etc. But if I think the model in question is good, then I'm absolutely going to argue it.

I just don't agree in any way that we're lacking as a faction overall, which is why I disagree so profoundly with Stinkmeaner.

Not so much anymore... One of my biggest gripes was threat ranges, and our last two casters have ways of increasing our threat ranges, so that argument is one I will leave alone. It is telling that of our most competitive casters, Harbinger and EFeora, that they are two of the casters that INCREASE our threat ranges. So I will chalk it up as a win for me, since I vehemently argued that we needed help here, and PP has answered with 2 casters that increase threat ranges AND our higher threat range casters are almost always at the top of our placings. Either way, it's a gripe that I have not brought up in a while since they are "fixing it" so to speak.