Communication While playing a tournament game and stalling last round.

[watchgeorgerock]

How does one handle if you feel your opponent is stalling near dice down? You can call a judge over but its not like he will magically appear 2 minutes before you figure out your opponent is stalling. The more you wait for one the more you argue the more time is being eaten up. Once dice down is called its not like you get to play out your game. Most importantly you feel like the **** because had to cause a scene to get a judge to come over so it feels like its best avoided. DEATH CLOCK needs to be standard.

Next rant

Open communication. I have heard many horror stories and witnessed things where questions were asked and were answered in ways to hide the correct answers or just flat out lied to or things get added to the answer after you have made your move based of the answer that was given. Do you get to do a rewind? I doubt it. Sure seems like an easy way to win just by not giving all the information that was asked. What are the repercussions for not giving the full answer to a question, lying or disagreeing what was agreed on. I understand people are human and mistakes are made but it seems like people in the competitive tournament play look for every single advantage they can take.

Yes I understand this is not the norm and as a whole the tournament scene is pretty classy but these things do arise and its very frustrating to watch and be apart of it.

If you need to lie to win at this game please quit playing.

[Crate123]

Make sure you ask the most precise question you can and dont be afraid to follow up on it, thats about all you can do I guess. If he outright lies then he is a **** and deserves a DQ, if its just because you failed to ask the correct question then its on you.

Can you give an example of a question you asked that wasnt answered in a way you thought was fair ?

[Wishing]

Yes I understand this is not the norm and as a whole the tournament scene is pretty classy but these things do arise and its very frustrating to watch and be apart of it.

Definitely. Unfortunately I think the best you can do is simply hope that you will be lucky enough to consistently play against friendly and sporting opponents in tournaments and casual games alike. If someone wants to make a game unpleasant and awkward by being shifty about information and stalling, there's not much you can do to stop them. My best recommendation is to file a complaint against them with the TO afterwards, and hope that if enough people complain, that the bad sportsman will be banned from future events.

[Rogue Sun]

Instead of asking a question about a model, ask to see the card. You can then get the full information and eliminate the middle man entirely. If you are then surprised by something it is entirely on you, as you have seen what the models are capable of.

[watchgeorgerock]

Make sure you ask the most precise question you can and dont be afraid to follow up on it, thats about all you can do I guess. If he outright lies then he is a **** and deserves a DQ, if its just because you failed to ask the correct question then its on you.

Can you give an example of a question you asked that wasnt answered in a way you thought was fair ?

I wish to not give specifics but I can say in one of the situations the questioned was asked multiple times in different wordings and after all was said and done part of the answer was given on at the beginning of the next players turn when it was too late and said player was able to win even though they had the game pretty much lost.

another point if you know what your opponent is asking, why be a jerk and give them a half answer to give yourself an advantage. That is not in the spirit of the game. This isn't a court room, this is a game. Being shady seems to be a very strong tactic.

[Mastershake]

Can you give an example of a question you asked that wasnt answered in a way you thought was fair ?

Haven't had this happen personally, but an interesting example would be asking if the Mage Hunter Strike Force with their UA ignored clouds. The unit doesn't ignore clouds, just all of the rulesets that would make them relevant. That being said, whenever an opponent asks if the unit ignores X for LoS purposes I'm usually pretty quick to impress upon them that they're approaching the question wrong.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Without specifics it's hard to say.

You have the absolute right to see an opponents card and know every rule on them, but you don't have the right to make them explain their strategy to you. So without knowing what was going on, I don't really know if it was in the wrong or not.

There is a difference between saying "if I move here is there some movement shennanigins on any of your models that will trigger" vs "If I move here is my caster going to die?" if you see what I mean.

One is a request for rules on cards, the other is a request for strategy, but if you ask an opponent if their model can do a specific action and they lie, that gets you DQ'd at any tourny I run.

[watchgeorgerock]

that is the perfect example and when the answer wasn't fully given til that player started his turn so you were screwed where already screwed. when you asked if they had such threats multiple times. I just wouldn't want to win that way.

[x3tsniper]

Haven't had this happen personally, but an interesting example would be asking if the Mage Hunter Strike Force with their UA ignored clouds. The unit doesn't ignore clouds, just all of the rulesets that would make them relevant. That being said, whenever an opponent asks if the unit ignores X for LoS purposes I'm usually pretty quick to impress upon them that they're approaching the question wrong.

If they don't know how the MHSF work then they probably shouldn't be at a tournament yet. I would say one of the main things to pay attention to, is whether you are asking for base defense/current and knowing that certain spells or abilities grant bonuses against certain attacks. This is all mostly stuff you just learn by playing a lot against as many of the factions as you can.
Whenever someone asks me a defense or armor, and it can change based on the type of attack I try to list off both defenses, so they don't shoot my model thinking it is an easy hit without boosting with a krea animus going right behind him.

Versus stating defense 13, and having them go *** why is he defense 15 when they end up shooting him. Honestly, I wouldn't feel to terrible about this after explaining exactly what my krea does and dropping the token for the animus after saying he used his animus, but it is nicer the other way.

[PG_Duckboy]

Only time I have had people get uneasy, is when they ask to see the control area for Old Witch on her feat turn and I tell them, " I do not have to show you", I have had several people rage and even call a TO over to clarify.

Obviously, i do measure when it becomes apparent or relevant but not as a freebie.

[Scottl1]

Hhmm in that case I'm a bit surprised they didn't just check their own and guesstimate. lol Guess you can't if your caster is far back.

[Crate123]

Only time I have had people get uneasy, is when they ask to see the control area for Old Witch on her feat turn and I tell them, " I do not have to show you", I have had several people rage and even call a TO over to clarify.

Obviously, i do measure when it becomes apparent or relevant but not as a freebie.

I do wish PP hadnt made it so those ctrl spells/feat were invisible until you step in them. Its a bit of a mess but ofcourse you are in the right, you have no obligation to show them.

[watchgeorgerock]

I have no issues with those type of abilities, but say you had a way to increase your control area and asked if thats the biggest your control area can be and you said yes then when they moved towards you remembered that you had some kind of buff or solo that increased it after they stopped their movement. Thats the shady stuff im talking about.

[Crate123]

I have no issues with those type of abilities, but say you had a way to increase your control area and asked if thats the biggest your control area can be and you said yes then when they moved towards you remembered that you had some kind of buff or solo that increased it after they stopped their movement. Thats the shady stuff im talking about.

Well you cant fault people for bad memory, especially in a tense situation like a tournament but where is the line between lying and bad memory ? yeah thats messy.

[watchgeorgerock]

can you just forgot to mark damage and remove models from the table??? Can't really do a rewind. Who gets the ill effect?

[PG_Duckboy]

Happened to me in speedmachine. i somehow had 22dmg marked on Beast 09 But knew damn well he didn't do that much damage with a stormwall shooting at him, But I took the damage as it was on the card and when it was wrecked, it was wrecked. Nothing I could do about it and I wasn't going to fudge it. I made sure my cards were squeaky clean after that match.

[Crate123]

can you just forgot to mark damage and remove models from the table??? Can't really do a rewind. Who gets the ill effect?

Remove models from the table is too obvious and would immediatly lead to your opponent calling over the judge. If you mark 1 less damage each time however that can probably be gotten away with pretty easily or at least its hard for your opponent to prove anything if the damage happened last round or something.

[macgowan]

Crate123> So your answer to an opponenty being a jerk is to cheat? That's asinine. People with that attitude are the reason these problems exist in the first place.

[jettzypher]

Instead of asking a question about a model, ask to see the card. You can then get the full information and eliminate the middle man entirely. If you are then surprised by something it is entirely on you, as you have seen what the models are capable of.

this is typically my reaction when someone asks what something does. easier for me to just hand them the card, then if they mess up its on them.

If you mark 1 less damage each time however that can probably be gotten away with pretty easily or at least its hard for your opponent to prove anything if the damage happened last round or something.

i know of someone that does this all the time. its really pressing, but when i still wreck the damn thing and have a fury spare on a bronzeback, i care less...

[Tarot]

can you just forgot to mark damage and remove models from the table??? Can't really do a rewind. Who gets the ill effect?

Sure you can, I've done it myself at Hardcore at DieCon last year (didn't move a slayer entirely off the board when removing it. won't make that mistake again). And if it does happen, really the only recourse is to immediately concede the game when you realize the model you just activated should no longer be on the table. If you cheat that blatantly (even by accident), you really don't have any choice other than to give your opponent the win. I'm just glad I caught myself, rather than my opponent catching it for me. That would have been really embarrassing.

[Aslain Kheog]

Death Clock has its own set of problems... Not the least of which is the requirements of two timers per table or chess clocks. As someone who is familiar with dealing with that logistic on a large scale it's not a decision to be made lightly. For Diecon specifically we didn't want to get an additional 40+ timers and we wanted to ensure how the format would play out before switching to it, those decisions were made when the death clock rules were fairly new. For example we will begin planning Privateer Weekend at Diecon 2013 in the next few weeks... And as some of you know this years event just finished yesterday.

If at a tournament or convention you are having any issues with players it's your responsibility to let the judges know so that we can do something about it. We do our best to keep an eye on things but when your dealing with large numbers of tables you can't be everywhere at once unless you have a judge per table...and in situations I'm talking about (and I think you are referring to) that's not feasible.

My recommendation is for you to give constructive opinions to organizers of the events you want to see grow and improve, but keep in mind that your information/opinion is only one of sometimes hundreds that organizers are considering.

[x3tsniper]

How do you forget to remove a model from the table after it is dead? I can understand leaving it as a wreck marker, but that is a pretty separate issue, and normally you face it backwards or something to signify being a wrecked model.

[watchgeorgerock]

Death Clock has its own set of problems... Not the least of which is the requirements of two timers per table or chess clocks. As someone who is familiar with dealing with that logistic on a large scale it's not a decision to be made lightly. For Diecon specifically we didn't want to get an additional 40+ timers and we wanted to ensure how the format would play out before switching to it, those decisions were made when the death clock rules were fairly new. For example we will begin planning Privateer Weekend at Diecon 2013 in the next few weeks... And as some of you know this years event just finished yesterday.

(I could fix death clock issues with one easy move, All scenarios after round 4 are now kill box so people dont run away to take advantage of someone elses time.)

If at a tournament or convention you are having any issues with players it's your responsibility to let the judges know so that we can do something about it. We do our best to keep an eye on things but when your dealing with large numbers of tables you can't be everywhere at once unless you have a judge per table...and in situations I'm talking about (and I think you are referring to) that's not feasible.

(I understand that judges can't be at every table but I don't see how calling a judge will fix an issue you are having with people stalling. No one stalls at the beginning of the game and by the time a judge comes it way too late. What if that person wasn't intentionally stalling, all I could do is ask what he is doing and hope he is just thinking of a plan why I desperately wait for him to finish so I can finish killing his last remaining model that will let him win. Calling a judge over will just delay this action even further and if you are not in the contention of winning the event its really just more of an annoyance then anything.)

My recommendation is for you to give constructive opinions to organizers of the events you want to see grow and improve, but keep in mind that your information/opinion is only one of sometimes hundreds that organizers are considering.

sent as PM

[rwould]

If they don't know how the MHSF work then they probably shouldn't be at a tournament yet. .....

Why? I have little to no idea on what quite a few things in the game cannot do. Attending a tournament is not just about winning. It can also be about learning these things and playing things you've not encountered before. Reading can only help you take in so much, getting shot to death by them helps you remember.

(this coming from the Ret player who forgot the opposing MHSF would be able to ignore cover so maybe my words of wisdom are not so wise!)

[Wishing]

How do you forget to remove a model from the table after it is dead? I can understand leaving it as a wreck marker, but that is a pretty separate issue, and normally you face it backwards or something to signify being a wrecked model.

From the example described earlier, it sounds like the player picked up the model and moved it away, but absent-mindedly placed it back down on the table instead of putting it in the dead box. Then in future turns, it was forgotten that the model was supposed to be dead and it was just recycled back into the game.

I can imagine this happening in an intense game where the players are concentrating on other things...

[hausdorff space]

Can you give an example of a question you asked that wasnt answered in a way you thought was fair ?

A few years back there was a thread (that didn't start as a complaint, but ended in some fairly well divided rage) recounting a game where:

• Player A asked how far Player B's Manhunter could charge;
• Player B responded 9 inches;
• so Player A placed his Warcaster >9.5 inches away (but less than 11.5 inches);
• Player B then cast Boundless Charge on his Manhunter and had it charge >9 inches to assassinate the Warcaster.

[PG_prkl]

Also last night I spectated a game where someone was deciding about boosting a pow 10 against an extoller soulward (5hp). When asked the opponent told it has ARM 12. He didn't mension that it had 2 souls on it at the time, raising it's ARM to 14.

This is information that means a lot to the current decision. I'm not judging the guy as he might have forgotten in the fast-paced game.

The guy ended up boosting and killing the solo, so in the end it didn't matter that much, but just wanted to give you an example. In this situation technically both answers (12/14) are correct, but i think he should've called 14 because it was obviously effecting the decision.

[The Buoyancy of Water]

Also last night I spectated a game where someone was deciding about boosting a pow 10 against an extoller soulward (5hp). When asked the opponent told it has ARM 12. He didn't mension that it had 2 souls on it at the time, raising it's ARM to 14.

Depends if the person asked for "current ARM" or just "ARM". Asking for the ARM stat, you could understand how the opponent got confused if giving the benefit of the doubt.

Personally, I find you have to simply hold yourself to a high standard. Your opponents will/will not, and there's nothing you can do about that. But if you've played an honest set of games and fought well, then surely you've had a good day. And that's what it's all about really

Cheers,
Dave

[PG_leontheconfused]

A few years back there was a thread (that didn't start as a complaint, but ended in some fairly well divided rage) recounting a game where:

• Player A asked how far Player B's Manhunter could charge;
• Player B responded 9 inches;
• so Player A placed his Warcaster >9.5 inches away (but less than 11.5 inches);
• Player B then cast Boundless Charge on his Manhunter and had it charge >9 inches to assassinate the Warcaster.

And this brings us on "threat range" - A term that does not exist in the rule book.

I have been trying to get my local players away from asking the threat range of something as they basically wasn't to know every buff you could possibly apply to a model!

[ShockwaveIIC]

Depends if the person asked for "current ARM" or just "ARM". Asking for the ARM stat, you could understand how the opponent got confused if giving the benefit of the doubt.

See I disagree with that in this example. The souls are a flat out bonus to ARM, they're not a bonus against "just shooting". That would be akin to not including Arcane Shield when asked for an ARM stat.

A situation where that kind of thing would be legit, is with Kayazy Assassins. What's their DEF? 14. You then charge them, against which they are DEF 16. The DEF bonus is not "always on". Of cause, knowing that you intend to get into melee with them, if you asked "what's their DEF in Melee? DEF 16.

If Iron Flesh is on them, that will/ should be given in the answer.

[Wishing]

This is information that means a lot to the current decision. I'm not judging the guy as he might have forgotten in the fast-paced game.

I think this is why the "people who lie should be DQ'ed" stance is problematic. You can rarely prove with any certainty that a person lied rather than simply forgot or wasn't thinking straight, and there is always the "technically what I said was correct" and "I do not have to tell you that" arguments to deal with too.

[The Buoyancy of Water]

See I disagree with that in this example.

Fair enough. I was trying to give the opponent the benefit of the doubt, but at the same time I didn't really think through the rules involved

I agree with your examples ShockwaveIIC.

Cheers,
Dave

[Murkhadh]

And this brings us on "threat range" - A term that does not exist in the rule book.

I have been trying to get my local players away from asking the threat range of something as they basically wasn't to know every buff you could possibly apply to a model!

Threat range is a common and accepted term, I see top players at top cons asking for it all of the time and have never saw anyone say "threat range isn't a term in the rule book". And man would that be a douchy thing for someone to say.

In the above example by hausdorff, that player asked the wrong question, he asked how far the model could charge. If he had asked what the max threat range was, maybe he would have gotten a difference answer. If he did get the same answer then the player giving the answer would probably fall under what the OP is referring too as not giving full answers.

[Crate123]

Crate123> So your answer to an opponenty being a jerk is to cheat? That's asinine. People with that attitude are the reason these problems exist in the first place.

No not at all, watchgeorgerock asked if you could forget to remove models or mark damage. I understood that to mean on purpose which means cheating and I gave my view on whether it was possible to get away with, not whether it was a good idea.

[Crate123]

A few years back there was a thread (that didn't start as a complaint, but ended in some fairly well divided rage) recounting a game where:

• Player A asked how far Player B's Manhunter could charge;
• Player B responded 9 inches;
• so Player A placed his Warcaster >9.5 inches away (but less than 11.5 inches);
• Player B then cast Boundless Charge on his Manhunter and had it charge >9 inches to assassinate the Warcaster.

Well thats messy, I would get mad if I lost that way and I would hopefully have answered "9 inches but I can buff that with Boundless Charged" myself. He didnt exactly cheat though I guess.

[Heavygear]

Well thats messy, I would get mad if I lost that way and I would hopefully have answered "9 inches but I can buff that with Boundless Charged" myself. He didnt exactly cheat though I guess.

Some people are not going to like this. Let me ask in a timed tournament setting why do I need to explain not only the stats for the manhunter but then go into all the possible ways I could increase those stats to be "fair". The rules say if the opponent wants to see your cards then let them see your cards, THEY CAN READ and then try to judge the risks involved in me buffing a certain model at a certain time. If your too lazy to even read the card this is what you get.

In this example what you are expecting is your opponent to say "Yeah I wouldn't do that because next turn I will just cast this spell and kill your model." This is revealing strategy not model rules or stats and genrally sounds like sour grapes to me.


In this example the first player wasn't familiar with his opponents models rules and expected his opponent to spoon feed him information.


If someone asks me how far a model can charge I give him the models SPD +3 inches.


You didn't ask if I put my model here will you be able to charge it and kill it next turn? This would be a stupid winey assed question to ask because the point of the game is for me to charge and kill your models.

[PG_prkl]

Threat range is a common and accepted term, I see top players at top cons asking for it all of the time and have never saw anyone say "threat range isn't a term in the rule book".

In the above example by hausdorff, that player asked the wrong question, he asked how far the model could charge. If he had asked what the max threat range was, maybe he would have gotten a difference answer. If he did get the same answer then the player giving the answer would probably fall under what the OP is referring too as not giving full answers.

IMO you should ask precise questions and answer with precise answers. If you ask a precise question you are obliged to feel bad if you get the wrong answer.

"How far can this model charge", is not a precise question, if a manhunter on the next turn charge up to 9" or up to 11", depending on how you view the question..

"Up to 9" on it's own" is a precise answer that can't be wrongly interpreted. I think both players had their fault.

I felt bad in a tournament, when an eGaspy player asked if he can activate models first, then kill them and feat with the same models. I answered "yes", and added "you probably don't want to do that tough" with a laugh. He went ahead and did it anyway and was pissed he couldn't activate the models.

I genuinely thought he knew what I had meant (and that he would know how to play the game since he's ~4 years into the game with his Cryx) but I let him take the move back and went on to lose the game, because it would've felt cheap the other way around.

[Kingbobb]

I've got different feelings about tournaments. Yes, you want to win based on skill vs skill...but experience with the game and abilities is something that goes with skill. On Threat Range...how far do you do in your abilities? If something has Hyper Aggressive AND your caster has a SPD buff, do you have to say "the Bronzeback can charge 7", has Counter Charge, and Hyper Aggressive, so he's got a threat range of about...18"?...oh, and I can put Rush on him to extend his Charge to 9"...and then he can pop Beat Back so if he lands 3 hits...."

In a friendly game, I might mention all those things. In a tournament, I'll be happy to hand over my cards, and I'll gladly answer direct questions. But I don't think I should be forced or expected to try and guess what my opponent is really trying to ask me. I've done that before, and felt stupid because their response was "oh, I know that, that's not why I was asking."

[Murkhadh]

I've got different feelings about tournaments. Yes, you want to win based on skill vs skill...but experience with the game and abilities is something that goes with skill. On Threat Range...how far do you do in your abilities? If something has Hyper Aggressive AND your caster has a SPD buff, do you have to say "the Bronzeback can charge 7", has Counter Charge, and Hyper Aggressive, so he's got a threat range of about...18"?...oh, and I can put Rush on him to extend his Charge to 9"...and then he can pop Beat Back so if he lands 3 hits...."

In a friendly game, I might mention all those things. In a tournament, I'll be happy to hand over my cards, and I'll gladly answer direct questions. But I don't think I should be forced or expected to try and guess what my opponent is really trying to ask me. I've done that before, and felt stupid because their response was "oh, I know that, that's not why I was asking."

Top players don't want to win because they left something out when asked a question, they want to win because they played better.

A specific example is when I saw one of the top legion players asked the threat range of his ravagore in a pvayl list. His answer was "well its moves 6 and shoots 14 but then I can leash for 3 and slipstream for another 2".

If you can't give answers like that and still win then your a lousy player and even lousier sportsman and shouldn't be playing in tournaments.

[Alexwheeler]

I think this is why the "people who lie should be DQ'ed" stance is problematic. You can rarely prove with any certainty that a person lied rather than simply forgot or wasn't thinking straight, and there is always the "technically what I said was correct" and "I do not have to tell you that" arguments to deal with too.

So how do you feel about asking what's the arm on my ebdt when it's near a obstacle and the rune bearers have there aura up. You ask what his "current" arm is and I tell you it's "18". Now I can't pre-measure to see if he's within 2" of the obstacle nor can I pre-measure if the bearers are within rng. Those have to be measured when you start making attacks.

Now if I had a carni with ethag, carni had his animus on and dragons blood. you asked the same question I would tell you it's 22.

I feel that with the trolls example I would have told you when I poped the bearers aura what it does and the rng, but I still couldn't have measured it until it was required for a model.

just like for the spawning vessel, I can't measure it's aura until a living model dies and still even then I can't radar sweep it I can only measure to that model.