Communication While playing a tournament game and stalling last round.

[joelker41]

You mean Sun tzu correct? Well, he would approve of not telling you anything (cheating is fine with him).I don't see an issue with sharing your cards (after this that's all I'm going to do because I'm not going on fishing expedition with people, short of telling you current statline plus current modifiers). This threat range discussion is ridiculous. No one said you shouldn't discuss stats and modifiers such as spells and active abilities, when asked. However, some have suggested that you are a cretin or a jerk for not discussing all possible game mechanics that are included. I personally feel that borders on discussing strategy (asking my mauler's charge range is not the same thing as asking what my army can do to make it so I can charge you.) it's fine to ask about a generic trick or well known strategy (hey your playing molik karn, heard he can charge x. How?) but asking "how far do I need be so you can't charge me" is unacceptable in a tournament setting, that's not stat or game info, that's asking for premeasurement. Yes, tournaments are different then causal play (not saying there are not more casual tourneys). Tournaments are meant to test your best against others doing the same. The goal is to win, but have fun while you test yourself trying your best. You've paid money for a chance to test your best against others. Being forced to explain your strategies or not capitalize on mistakes made is not only unfair it's not playing at your best. You relax from your tourney mindset to play casual, you don't "jerk up" from casual. That has been a low brow tactic used by some, suggesting that not discussing strategical elements (I.e. Pushing a model to increase charge range) is a jerk move or a ******y is inflammatory and not arguing why it's important to be so open. Oh it's a gotcha win? Or a chump win? It's a inflammatory comment not suggesting why it's a chump move. Are you saying if I show you my cards, but you don't notice/think of the gator throw combo, and I win by it, it's a chump win because I didn't explain fully that I can throw my gator when you ask about charge range of the gator? Again cool with talking about my stats, showing you my cards, but I am not going to discuss my strategy, especially when you don't ask about it in a tournament setting. I won't be asking you for anything but stats.

Sun Tzu does not have a say in SR2012 tournaments lol....

[CrypticApathy]

In a non comp game, ill go as far as telling them what I'm going to do if they do xx.. Depending on there experience. In a competition I give them the cards an let them figure it out. If you are a new player in a tournament take it as a learning experience. I always make note of the opponents tool soI can apply them to there cards if I need to see it later.

[traeplien]

I'm happy to give over my cards to opponents, or answer basic questions about models and abilities. I'm happy to answer things like "Do you have any way to increase his MAT or SPD?" or "Does he have anything that lets him move out of activation?" But if my opponent looked at me and flat out asked "Do you have a way to kill me if I'm that close?" I'll respond with a non-commital answer and let him see the cards if he'd like...

In a game of chess, is it considered unsportsmanlike for your opponent to not inform you that if you move your king in such a way, he'll potentially put it in check next turn? Of course not. You're expected to be able to look at the board and realize that it's a risky move. If you don't, you accept that you made an error and strive to not make it again, and in doing so, become a better player. Our cards are like chess pieces - everyone deserves to know what they do. Figuring out the interactions is up to the individual player, and in learning how they work and how to stop them, we become better players. If someone asks me how far a dire troll mauler can charge, I'll say "Speed 5, +3" for charging" if they ask if I have ways to increase that, I'll answer them honestly depending on my models and units. But if they ask me "If I move this here, are you going to charge me?" you can bet I'll say "I don't know, depends on what happens."

I've made plenty of mistakes because I failed to ask about a rule or see someone's card; I learned from that and very quickly started asking to see the cards. Most of my friends have done the same, and we continue to play games that focus more on skill and strategy and less on rules and information. Once you've seen Scaverous feat, Telekinesis a jack and the opposing warcaster, icy grip that caster, pull the caster with a reaper, and then charge with a full-focus heavy at least once, you don't allow it to happen again. I'm not advocating hiding information or being dodgy about it, but really, how does anyone find "Can you kill me from here if this is what I do?" a fair question...?

[watchgeorgerock]

This game is not chess.

[HRM]

Yeah, the chess comparisons are weird. You have the exact same pieces in a chess game. The odds of that happening in WarmaHordes are so small as to be incalcuable.

[bakaryu]

In friendly games and practice games I will gladly tell my opponent what buffs I have to what kinds of models.

When it comes to tournament matches if my opponent asks for example what ways I have to boost movement I will hand over the cards of all the models I have that can do so, but I will not give out my strategies or how I will stack them during certain times. In many cases it is simply a spell on the warcaster/warlock's card, occasionally its an animus, but the onus is on him to see them, not for me to spell them out for him.

Similarly when it comes to calculating things like effective MAT/RAT/DEF/ARM I will always say what they currently are and emphasise, saying "effective ARM is 20" for example. It speeds the game up (giving me more chance of having time for another turn of my own) and then if the opponent asks I can always break it down. For example in my pMadrak list when my Kriel Warriors charge and I say they are effective MAT11 he might well ask me why as that level of MAT is almost impossible for anyone except Trolls outside of CMA (MAT5 + 2 Fell Caller + 2 Carnage + 2 Fervor).

Similarly when it comes to speeding up play I will just call 5's to hit or dice minus 1 for damage, the opponent might ask once during the units activation to clarify why, but after that it is a lot faster than rolling the dice and adding X then taking away Y if you already know what is required. I roll a 4 to hit? No problem on to the next dude, I rolled a 10 for damage? Ok take 9 damage to column <rolls> 5.

[2LiveIs2Die]

Changing how you tell information between practice games and tourney games is rather sad, to be honest. That's just admitting you are more willing to not tell people something when something is on the line aside from practice.

[The Buoyancy of Water]

Being totally open doesn't always work:

I was playing a friend in a recent steamroller and he moved a solo in front of my drakhun. I said "remember he has counter charge, are you sure you want to do that?" He replied, "I've done it now, go ahead." Dead solo. Next turn, he walks his caster in front of the drakhun... >.<

Some people never learn, no matter how many times you tell them

Cheers,
Dave

[Wishing]

Yeah, the chess comparisons are weird. You have the exact same pieces in a chess game. The odds of that happening in WarmaHordes are so small as to be incalcuable.

True that the games are different, in that WM has lots of different pieces with lots of different complicated rules, whereas both sides are the same in chess and their rules are simple. But the principles behind the games are the same. And the questions that are appropriate and inapproprate are essentially the same too.

"What does that piece do?" = appropriate.
"Will my piece be safe if I put it here?" (or variation thereof) = not appropriate.

Changing how you tell information between practice games and tourney games is rather sad, to be honest. That's just admitting you are more willing to not tell people something when something is on the line aside from practice.

It's not necessarily about something being "on the line" though. It will generally just be the difference between having fun in a casual, relaxed way and having fun in a competitive, exciting way. It's not about tournaments or prizes, it's about whether you feel like putting your "game face" on or not.

[Kingbobb]

I also agree with this. If my opponent doesn't know what question to ask, that's not my fault. I'll answer any question on facts (abilities, buffs, etc) that's asked of me. But all I can do is answer the question asked.

Also, I do think it matters what kind of game you're playing. If I'm in a tournament, it's not my job to be teaching you the game. On the other hand, if you're a newer player in a casual setting, and we talk beforehand about making it a teaching game, then my stance is going to be very different.

As an example: "Can you kill me if I move my caster here?" In a tournament, I'd probably respond with charge and ranged attack ranges for pieces I have, mention buffs available, and ask if they want to see any cards. That's about it. I won't mention that I could throw/slam his screening heavy out of the way to clear a charge lane, or headbutt it to KD so I can CRA his caster once it clears LOS.

In a game that's set up as a teaching game, I WOULD go through all of those options. I don't think that makes me a jerk. I do think that in a competitive game, regardless of experience level, I should not be expected to play for you or try to make up for our difference in experience. I don't expect it when I face a more experienced player. Having them warn me off moves that might cost me is no way to learn the game. I'm fairly likely to make the same mistake in my next game, unless I get another warning. Losing a heavy or a whole game is a painful lesson, but one I'm not likely to ever forget, and will in the long run make me a better player.

Look I don't mind the integral questions about threat range and abilities, as long as it is on my opponent's clock. Not trying to be funny, I am 100% serious.

I am very impartial on information, and believe the onus is on your opponents to read your cards. Asking what the threat range of pieces are I always answer with "____ speed,+3 for charging, and reach" etc. There is no reason in a tournament setting why people should go on a diatribe on their entire strategy. Then it isn't a game, its a lecture on a faction/caster.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Changing how you tell information between practice games and tourney games is rather sad, to be honest. That's just admitting you are more willing to not tell people something when something is on the line aside from practice.

That's just silly.

Of course people change how they tell information between casual games and practice games. In casual games there is no finite time limit to be eaten up by lengthy explanations, and you won't get DQ'd if you accidentally tell them incorrect info.

There is a whole different set of etiquette for tournaments, which is true for pretty much any game/sport/event everywhere, as it helps ensure even playing fields and prevent cheating. That doesn't mean you have to be a jerk or with hold info, but it means under the constraint of time and rules, it's often much safer to explain what you can and then hand your cards over so you don't leave anything out.

[Taslon]

Ok ill clarify my side a bit.

In starcraft 2 there is a type of playing called cheesing. Cheesign is using a rediculous stratagy or all in, that if done on a player that knows how to defend it, will fail, and cost you heavily. THe molik Missle, tossing behemoth, even gator tossing can be cheeses. Winning by a cheese is a cheap victory. It is of my opinion that Gotchas are cheeses, and thereby cheap victories. How hard is to say at the beggining of your game "Molik has a base charge range, but if I put all my cards ina deck it puts him up to a 22in threat? What does that do? It doesnt kill your strategy, you just wont get a free win on round 2. Or maybe he wont respect the missle, and you still get the victory. My point is, if you rely on gotchas to win, your not gonna do well when you play against more competitve people who know your rules, and wont fall for them.

My second point is, gotcha wins when they happen alot, hurt the game for new players. If a person has only been playing for a few months, and they got to there first steamroller, then get the teeth kicked in, due to missinformation (Ill explain in third para) then its gonna be discouraging. Its Very hard for me even, to keep up on all 11 factions and what every model does, how are you expecting new players to know what your combos do? Knowledge is the most powerful stat in this game, and I completely agree that you shouldnt give your opponent a play by play of what every model can do to kill him, but a brief explenation, with maybe emphasis on the most hardcore ball busting strats wont kill your game, and will make the game fun.

Thirdly, this is a open information game. all this junk about not asking the right questions, or accidentally leaving out things like arm to extollers, is in my opinion is bad form. If your opponent doesnt know this stuff, you should help them, even in a tournament, to make the game more fun for everybody. Whats the point of playing in a tournament, when your opponent wont have any fun?

[Taslon]

As an example: "Can you kill me if I move my caster here?" In a tournament, I'd probably respond with charge and ranged attack ranges for pieces I have, mention buffs available, and ask if they want to see any cards. That's about it. I won't mention that I could throw/slam his screening heavy out of the way to clear a charge lane, or headbutt it to KD so I can CRA his caster once it clears LOS.

In a game that's set up as a teaching game, I WOULD go through all of those options. I don't think that makes me a jerk. I do think that in a competitive game, regardless of experience level, I should not be expected to play for you or try to make up for our difference in experience. I don't expect it when I face a more experienced player. Having them warn me off moves that might cost me is no way to learn the game. I'm fairly likely to make the same mistake in my next game, unless I get another warning. Losing a heavy or a whole game is a painful lesson, but one I'm not likely to ever forget, and will in the long run make me a better player.

this I find completely acceptable. You dont have to lay down your entire plan from a-z. And Im not telling people to also take 10 mins on there clock to go over everything that can kill them. Even if they asked me what could kill them, id answer if you dont feel safe there, maybe you should stay further back, as were on a timer". But tournament games are not learning games. Im more saying that in the begging, when you tell people what your models can do in the beggining of a game, tell them some of your combos so they can try to prepare.

[Grim Wingus]

Shouldn't there be a token to represent Enliven, in this case ?.

I think the key word in my post was the adverb "embarrassingly,"
Yeah, there was always a token, there was never any shady business from my opponent, I just had a run of Charging straight into it like a clownshoe every time. Slow learner.

[Chip]

I've recently tried volunteering additional information on top of what I was asked. Despite what many posters imply, my 'caster didn't spontaneously combust, which was cool.

Seriously, I can't remember my own army's rules half the time, I won't hold my opponent to a higher standard than myself, so if they ask a question I'll volunteer any spells or effects I can think of that they could realistically get in the next turn, because I'd feel cheated if someone held back something obvious from me. I would like to yell "INVALID SYNTAX!!! TERM NOT FOUND!!!" at someone the next time they ask me what my threat range is, though...

[Wishing]

Im more saying that in the begging, when you tell people what your models can do in the beggining of a game, tell them some of your combos so they can try to prepare.

I agree with this entirely. Whether in tournament or casual games, it makes for much better games if both players make sure their opponents understand what the pieces they are facing can do before the game starts.

However, this thread is generally not about what happens before the game. The topic was set out to be about questions that are asked in the middle of the game, when someone is pondering what to do in the middle of an active game state. That´s a different situation than a pre-game debriefing.

[Syas]

Changing how you tell information between practice games and tourney games is rather sad, to be honest. That's just admitting you are more willing to not tell people something when something is on the line aside from practice.

I think you are off here; the issue is not "when something is on the line", it is "when a certain level of competitiveness is expected, encouraged, and rewarded". A baseball player doesn't go full out in practice, he works on improving, and helps others work on improving; come game time however, he is there to win.

[bakaryu]

Changing how you tell information between practice games and tourney games is rather sad, to be honest. That's just admitting you are more willing to not tell people something when something is on the line aside from practice.

Not in the slightest, when I play practice matches I am more than happy to tell my opponents what my list is all about and how I expect it to work because doing so gives him the information to possibly provide a counter to it to make the matchup as difficult for me as possible. If he tries a counter I haven't thought of and he wins then my experience is richer for it and it gives me a new counter to try to shut down, if he tries a counter but still loses then it was probably still a more difficult match than if he had walked right into my trap and got curb stomped top of turn two.

When it comes down to competitive tournament play (and I play in a lot of tournaments) then I expect from my opponent no less than I expect from myself - the ability to appraise what is on the other side of the board and to surmise what his expected strategy is going to be. I don't know the rule of every single model in the game (especially the more corner case models out there) but at a guess I think I know the rules for a solid 80-85% of them, I might ask my opponent what the DEF of model X is if I have forgotten and my clock is ticking down, but I will never ask him how he intends to combine the abilities of model X and model Y - as the opposition general it is my job to work that out from the (ample) information already at my disposal.

In tournament play I expect the same from my opponents as I do from myself. The cards are there, check them out and figure out what buffs/debuffs he has for himself.