The Avenger - a flawed Jack?

[miker1]

I was wondering what others opinions of this jack are.

I ask as it is the only Cygnar shooting jack that has a rat lower than 6.

4 seems such a pathetic value for a weapon that is supposedly very expensive to use.

What has happened to the Cygnar targeters?

[Theripontigonus]

Shoot the low def models they hide a caster near. Use gunmages to push a low def model closer. Use guided fire, slogans feat, rangers, or just boost. There's so many ways for cygnar to get around the lower rat it's not even funny. Only faction in the game where the forums would complain about a heavy with ranged KD and good armor along with a pow 18 sword to back it up

[sleet01]

@miker1: It has a POW 18 *Stun* sword!!! I have run the Avenger as a setter for my Hammersmith; if the Avenger can KD or Stall a 'jack or beast, the Hammersmith can move in and clean it up for next to no focus. The Avenger is a very nice enabler for our lower-MAT heavies and any Merc model that benefits from KD, plus ranged Knockdown is very good for opening up firing or charge lanes that our other models can then exploit with impunity. Nothing messes up someone's alpha strike like knocking down a ~6" swathe of models.

@Theripontigonus: Let's be fair; one person does not equate to "the forums". I mean, how would you like it if I said all Virginians are incapable of capitalizing proper nouns based solely on your one post?

I like the Avenger, I'm just waiting for the model to finally come out before I start playing him a lot. I expect he'll go well with Gun Mages for massive 4" AOE KD + Push shenanigans, maybe with a side of Trencher Master Gunner.

[Sanguinary Dan]

And never forget the joys of the Trencher Gunnery Sergeant. A +2 RAT and rerolled scatter or better yet the ability to fire into tight quarters knowing that your blast has no effect on friendlies? Combined with P&S18 Stall Blade and ARM19?

Flawed? I think not. In need of some support? Sure. But we only have a couple of jacks that aren't. You want to see the true power of an Avenger just marshal it to the Dude and buff it with the Trencher.

[chromiumboy]

KD is extremely potent, even more so when its attached to a ranged attack. Having it a 'jack with a base RAT higher then four would be far too powerful. Theripontigonus raises many good points, especially with rangers and boosting. An aiming Avenger with the ranger bonus can hit DEF 15 on average dice, DEF 18 when boosted. And a POW 18 sword with stall is nothing to sneeze at either.

[sleet01]

Make that P+S 20 with Stall and Disruption, or with Stall and Electro-Leap, since I'll most often take one with a Nemo.

[sleet01]

And never forget the joys of the Trencher Gunnery Sergeant.

You mean... the Trencher Master Gunner?

[HellecticMojo]

I'm your Trencher Gunnery Sergeant Hartman, your senior Drill Instructor!

i think the Avenger is only flawed if you see it as a ranged jack. I see it as a 50/50 melee/ranged jack as a guy who faced it across the table.

[King-of-Storms]

The Avenger has so many synergies with Cygnar and Mercenary models it's insane. Arguably the most versatile jack since the Defender IMO.

My favorite combination is running the Avenger with Trencher Master Gunners and Rangers. I use rangers to give the Avenger a more respectable RAT of 6 or an 8 if I keep it parked (which isn't often) and use the Master Gunners to give it a bigger AOE and re-rolls if it missed.

Depending on the circumstances it either go for anti-infantry or anti-jack roles. I found useful combined-arms with Centurions, Hammersmiths, Stormclads, Long Gunners, ATGMs and Stormblades.

I once killed a Behemoth in a brutal Avenger, Centurion and Hammersmith pile up while playing Kraye. Famous last words heard on the other side of the table... "What the f***?!"

My only complaint is that the 9 point class is getting awfully dang crowded.

[sleet01]

Uh... He can get up to RAT 10 with Rangers, Artillerist, and aiming. If you take two TMGs he *also* does no blast damage to friendlies. So... y'know... there's that​ in his favor.

[The Glen]

I'm your Trencher Gunnery Sergeant Hartman, your senior Drill Instructor!

i think the Avenger is only flawed if you see it as a ranged jack. I see it as a 50/50 melee/ranged jack as a guy who faced it across the table.

I read the entire rest of this thread in R. Lee Ermey's voice thanks to you.

[A8mew]

I see the Avenger as a melee beatstick who happens to shoot earthquakes.

This may be arrogance speaking but I'm pretty sure that's the right way to go about this.

[Stephan Garmark]

4 seems such a pathetic value for a weapon that is supposedly very expensive to use.

I think my Khador buddies would agree

[Nightrunner]

I see the Avenger as a melee beatstick who happens to shoot earthquakes.

This may be arrogance speaking but I'm pretty sure that's the right way to go about this.

Maybe; I have found the avenger really potent in my 35pt eCaine list:

eCaine+5
- Cyclone
- Squire

ATGM + Officer
-Marshalled Avenger

Reinholdt
Arlan Strangeways
eEiryss
Gorman Di Wulfe
The Black 13th

I have been using the combination of pushes from the gun mages' thunderbolts, snipe, boost and free focus from Arlan to push easier to hit models close to caster or a suitable target, then my (aiming) range 14" rat 6 shot has yet to fail me.

Apply Caine to said target = profit.

The blast effect is also great for taking out swathes of infantry, and I am really pleased with the extra ranged threat that makes people ignore the angles of approach that Caine can take.

I have only used him as a heavy in an emergency, and quite honestly the lack of reach, MAT 6 and an inability to buff him combat wise in this list means that for me, he is a ranged support heavy that can catch people unawares.

NR

[OniBeowulf]

I usually bring a Stormclad with eCaine but I think the Avenger will take his place once he comes out.

[paspinall]

Aim bonus
Ranger bonus
Deadeye
Master gunner

thats equivalent RAT 10 with extra dice to hit, dont see a problem with it to be honest.

[PG_Agamemnon]

Aim bonus
Ranger bonus
Deadeye
Master gunner

thats equivalent RAT 10 with extra dice to hit, dont see a problem with it to be honest.

Aim Bonus
Ranger Bonus
Deadeye
Master gunner
Boost (From the dude or FOC from caster/Strangeways)
Temporial Barrier
Black oil

Those are just the bonuses I can think of without pre-knocking down the target and then pushing the KD target into place to hit it with the Avenger.

[Snuggly Buffalo]

Maybe; I have found the avenger really potent in my 35pt eCaine list:

I have been using the combination of pushes from the gun mages' thunderbolts, snipe, boost and free focus from Arlan to push easier to hit models close to caster or a suitable target, then my (aiming) range 14" rat 6 shot has yet to fail me.

NR

Thunderbolt pretty explicitly says it pushes hit models away from the attacking model, so my understanding is that Thunderbolt on an AOE pushes everything in the AOE directly away from the attacker, not away from the center of the AOE. I don't think you can use a marshalled Avenger to push models closer to your caster without getting behind them.

[Doctor Lucky]

Thunderbolt pretty explicitly says it pushes hit models away from the attacking model, so my understanding is that Thunderbolt on an AOE pushes everything in the AOE directly away from the attacker, not away from the center of the AOE. I don't think you can use a marshalled Avenger to push models closer to your caster without getting behind them.

I think he's saying he pushes models with a relatively lower DEF closer to the target he wants to get to so he can shoot those low DEF models with the Avenger to get the knockdown on the important targets. So no pushing models towards his own caster, but towards high DEF/important enemy models such as probably the opposing caster and no pushing with the Avenger's shots, but lining the pushed model up to shoot with the Avenger.

[TsavongLah]

I think he was saying that he uses the Gun Mages to push a fat DEF10ish heavy closer to the opponent's 'caster/'lock and then shoots the heavy with the Earthquake Cannon for an easy hit. It's a good way to overcome the low RAT—just shoot something near your target. If there isn't anything near your target, push something near your target.

edit: ninja'd, aka didn't refresh the thread before posting.

[Steamwater]

I can't wait to dust off my devil dogs and run them with Murdoch when this guy hits the shelves! Assault with sluguns then trash some KD'd heavy that just got shot by a huge frickin' cannon? Yes, please.

[Snuggly Buffalo]

Ah, that makes a lot more sense than the way I was reading it. Reading comprehension ftw. In that case, yeah, solid strategy. :P

[sleet01]

For maximum Ludicrousness: Blaize + Junior + ATGMS + Avenger + Lanyssa + Carvolo + DDs + Murdoch: 19" KD threat range, 13" Charge / 17" Assault threat over any terrain versus any one model with 11 ARM 16+ models. Then Go To Ground, assuming you maneuvered Murdoch properly, and Feat. You might actually catch somebody out with that.

[Kraye]

I'm assuming that with Stormwall you could also just shoot the pod for easy to hit and maximum accuracy in template placement.

[Lanz]

I'm assuming that with Stormwall you could also just shoot the pod for easy to hit and maximum accuracy in template placement.

... ... ...

That's... actually a really good idea. I was considering an Avenger with my Stormwall too.

[Halfhoot]

I'm assuming that with Stormwall you could also just shoot the pod for easy to hit and maximum accuracy in template placement.

For AOE damage sure... but the knockdown happens only on direct hit of an "enemy model"

[Lanz]

Oh. Nevermind then. Avenger goes back on 'maybe' status.

[Kraye]

For AOE damage sure... but the knockdown happens only on direct hit of an "enemy model"

Damn, well I suppose I'll have to stick with Ryan's AoE. Thanks for the clarification, hadn't read the card yet.

[Sanguinary Dan]

You mean... the Trencher Master Gunner?

No damn it. That shotgun toting badass is a Gunnery Sergeant. A master gunner is probably some form of wide bottomed navy puke sitting in a cushy chair in a plotting room!

[Halfhoot]

Actually I think this is going to be one of my new go-to jacks. I use the Defender as a hybrid melee/ranged jack extremely often and that +2 damage is going to be super nice. I could easily see him being Nemo's mainstay jack for me when he comes out. Might even replace one of the two heavies in eStryker's list as Positive Charge is always amazing on a melee jack and he has the nice ranged element that sometimes lacks in that tournament list of mine.

Question... does stall work on Colossals or did they nix that along with disruptions?

[sleet01]

No damn it. That shotgun toting badass is a Gunnery Sergeant. A master gunner is probably some form of wide bottomed navy puke sitting in a cushy chair in a plotting room!

Really? You're gonna make this a Jarhead vs. Real Army debate? My old Master Gunner could run five miles, punch out a "Gunnery Sergeant" with one hand, and use the other zero an M256 gun while directing a platoon of tanks in live-fire exercises. That... is a Master Gunner!

Question... does stall work on Colossals or did they nix that along with disruptions?

Stall should work. It doesn't make affected 'jacks Stationary and it isn't specifically disallowed.

[RedWynd]

Marshalled Avenger is pure gold against Khador lists.

I also had one on Jr during a game of eHaley vs Mortenebra. On an extremely good turn (for me), eHaley successfully arc'd Domination onto a Slayer, which then about-faced and punched Morty, followed by the Slayer then getting shot in the back by the Avenger. Unfortunately, Morty had Steady, but my point still stands that, in theory, the Avenger can be the most valuable gun in your list when applied to the correct scenario, and with TA it's goddamn scary.

[leo_neil316]

I was wondering what others opinions of this jack are.

I ask as it is the only Cygnar shooting jack that has a rat lower than 6.

4 seems such a pathetic value for a weapon that is supposedly very expensive to use.

What has happened to the Cygnar targeters?

So take some rangers, and master gunners, and haley.

Hey! Now it's RAT 10 and rolling 4d6 to hit!

Welcome to Cygnar.

[Derangedgamer123]

What about PStryker with Stormwall and Avengers+ Lancer

This means that you can place a Lighting Pod then earthquake it then avenger earthquake a KD target into what you wanna shoot with your sniped long-gunners :-)

[PG_Agamemnon]

What about PStryker with Stormwall and Avengers+ Lancer

This means that you can place a Lighting Pod then earthquake it then avenger earthquake a KD target into what you wanna shoot with your sniped long-gunners :-)

Please read post #26

[John of Arc]

As a Khador player, I can tell you that RAT 4 isn't a big deal. As a Cygnar player, I can tell you that I will never be gambling on a RAT 4 shot ;D

[Lanz]

I think RAT 4 hurts in terms of that instead of being a decent shot without a boost, and having the option to boost against good defense, it instead generally has to always boost, then is unlikely to work on higher defense models.

It's not so bad when AoEs are involved, because high def often means low arm, and having the ability to boost the blast can make up for it a bit.

[Derangedgamer123]

Please read post #26

The earthquake comes from PStryker the Avenger Eartquake shot is off one of the other KD units to chain back and get other targets with the KD...... I dont see how post 26 is relevant? I could be off?

[Sacredsouless]

Really? You're gonna make this a Jarhead vs. Real Army debate? My old Master Gunner could run five miles, punch out a "Gunnery Sergeant" with one hand, and use the other zero an M256 gun while directing a platoon of tanks in live-fire exercises. That... is a Master Gunner!

Who never met my gunny.......


Any way, I'm gettin two the second they hit shelves (well, not literally, more like when I can get to the states and grab 'em). I think the KD AOE is pure gold, definetaly the main reason I'm taking them.

[Calibre]

Just a question that's been bugging me for quite sometime now, if you marshall the Avenger on The Dude, and elect thunderbolt shot, do you only get to push the target if you directly hit or everything under the template? I oddly remember reading somewhere everything under the template counts as being directly hit.