OP models?

[boxur333]

This is not ment to wine im just curious how others find certian models to be "op" as in how many points they are for what they do in each faction. no complaining every faction has a few thats just fact maybe this will give ppl insentive to pick them up or ideas how to deal with them what do u guys think?

[PG_Alviaran]

I certainly feel some models are perhaps miscosted, some under and some over. I think the most commonly regarded undercosted one is probably the Black 13th. Would anyone stop taking them if they were five pts like the other character units?

I don't think anything is necessarily OP. Hell, I have a LOT fewer problems with the infamous Winterguard Deathstar now that Jo can't appear in both lists in competitive environments anymore.

[boxur333]

I agree b13 r so cheap. i fought menoth they have this 2 pt solo i call the book who everytime u injure it it only take 1 pt of damage no matter what and its prayers r crazy

[MathPasta]

Well every faction has a couple of units that dominate the rest and their warjacks in terms of effectiveness due to being able to do everything at once.

[Flindo]

I think most can agree that most cav except for the Tuffolos are a bit over priced for what they do.

I think PP also must have done something right with Jenissa if I dont have enough points for Her, I find a way to squeeze her in, I wouldnt exactly know If I would call her OP, but shes really good.

[Tyr852]

I agree b13 r so cheap. i fought menoth they have this 2 pt solo i call the book who everytime u injure it it only take 1 pt of damage no matter what and its prayers r crazy

eEiyrss with deathbolt can whack it for 3pts of damage if that helps at all ^_^

Either the Mage Hunter Assassins or p/eEiyrss get my nod for maybe under costed for what they can do.

[kolonelk]

Some of the usual suspects seem to be B13, Bane Thralls, Tartarus, Avatar, Deathjack. Oh, and Legion.

[x3tsniper]

I have a feeling SoB(sons of bragg) will soon be a top contender here. I could be wrong, but they seem to have surpassed the bears at the same cost. I really look forward to possibly getting a 3 man character unit for skorne.

[katadder]

tartarus is the worst offender. if curse was a special action it might make him ok.
withershadow combine, like BFS but better for same points, they get stealth without having to do an action, they can dispel more than just the stuff on their unit.
B13th maybe but at 5pts think they would be over costed. thats the problem with the small number of available points. so many things could be better off half a point more or half a point less.

[DonJean]

Mage hunter Strike force. But I'm not sure if its a cost problem or a a rules interaction. This is purely because you activly have to build a list that deals with them in some factions which limits your ability in tournaments.

Gun Mage Captain Adept is over costed for his slot. This is more a rules problem switch arcane percision for True sight and most owuld say he is bang on.

These are pretty much it thats obvious.

Tartarus isn't actually that bad since he still dieds fairly easily if you put some effort into it with most lists.

[x3tsniper]

Mage hunter Strike force. But I'm not sure if its a cost problem or a a rules interaction. This is purely because you activly have to build a list that deals with them in some factions which limits your ability in tournaments.

Gun Mage Captain Adept is over costed for his slot. This is more a rules problem switch arcane percision for True sight and most owuld say he is bang on.

These are pretty much it thats obvious.

Tartarus isn't actually that bad since he still dieds fairly easily if you put some effort into it with most lists.

I am going to take a swing in the dark here and say you play Cygnar. There is **** all I can do against an armor 17 stealth target in Khador. Certain Skorne lists can deal with it better than others, but that is mainly through Skorne having a speed advantage.
I don't particularly hate him, but I do find him aggravating.

[King-of-Storms]

For Cryx: Bane Lord Tartarus, Revenant Gun Crew and Death Jack.

For Khador: Man-O-Wars (any variant) and Widowmakers.

For Menoth: Errants, Senecshals, Deliverers and Bastions.

For Cygnar: You're kidding? We're talking about a faction with no multi-wound heavy infantry...

For Retribution: Have not played against a Retribution army yet.

For Mercenaries: None.

[Tyr852]

For Khador: Man-O-Wars (any variant)

There is a first time for everything

[boxur333]

That hint about the book thank u so much i will try that...and about the sons of bragg i would have to dissagree respectully ofcourse i think the point value suits them well. and i knsw someone would say legion lol, i just sold all my legion because they were easy. bought cygnar and in my new faction im laughing about the b13, charger, the haleys lol, but i find the most crazy op model for points cost and abilities to be mage hunter assassin never played her but she was the reason i almost went ret...thank god i didnt due to their lack of models who all look like come from grandia 3 pillow fisted bots...i find khador to be fairly op in some forms with whole " whats khadors high stats?" " what ever they want!"

[Tyr852]

Just realized I meant pEiyrss that has the deathbolt , not epic ^_^ , but yeah the book is urg my friend likes to use it with the rocket tweerps , 10 AoE's that cause fire .. hurt.

[Flindo]

For Cryx: Bane Lord Tartarus, Revenant Gun Crew and Death Jack.

For Khador: Man-O-Wars (any variant) and Widowmakers.

For Menoth: Errants, Senecshals, Deliverers and Bastions.

For Cygnar: You're kidding? We're talking about a faction with no multi-wound heavy infantry...

For Retribution: Have not played against a Retribution army yet.

For Mercenaries: None.

you must be new to the game with these opinions.

[Sheer_Falacy]

For Cryx: Bane Lord Tartarus, Revenant Gun Crew and Death Jack.

For Khador: Man-O-Wars (any variant) and Widowmakers.

For Menoth: Errants, Senecshals, Deliverers and Bastions.

For Cygnar: You're kidding? We're talking about a faction with no multi-wound heavy infantry...

For Retribution: Have not played against a Retribution army yet.

For Mercenaries: None.

Revenant gun crew is bad. Man of wars are mostly bad. I've never seen Menoth take a Seneschal, so I don't know, but I suspect it's not broken. Multi-wound heavy infantry don't actually tend to be very good, so I don't know how that relates to Cygnar.

Not that I believe the other stuff on your list is OP, but I'm calling out the things that are generally considered to be the opposite.

[OniBeowulf]

For Cryx: Bane Lord Tartarus, Revenant Gun Crew and Death Jack.

For Khador: Man-O-Wars (any variant) and Widowmakers.

For Menoth: Errants, Senecshals, Deliverers and Bastions.

For Cygnar: You're kidding? We're talking about a faction with no multi-wound heavy infantry...

For Retribution: Have not played against a Retribution army yet.

For Mercenaries: None.

HEY!!!! Cygnar has Ogrun Assault Core!!!....oh wait....

[arobe]

For Cygnar: You're kidding? We're talking about a faction with no multi-wound heavy infantry...

I don't like to get in on this threads but Cygnar OP is everything they have with guns, ridiculous high defense and RAT and the ability to kill stealth better than eyeless sight Playing against their gun lines all the time made me quit playing khador, but later i did learn how to get through it but playing the Cygner gun line is still painful experience.

[maddermax]

Just realized I meant pEiyrss that has the deathbolt , not epic ^_^ , but yeah the book is urg my friend likes to use it with the rocket tweerps , 10 AoE's that cause fire .. hurt.

I think you need to read his rules again. His ability only makes *direct hits* cause continuous fire. If he misses, no fire, if he hits, the target is set on fire, but not those under the blast (who are hit, but not *directly hit). As Deliverers (the rocket unit you mentioned) have the inaccurate rule, they're effectively RAT 1, and can't hit the blind side of a barn directly, without most of the unit doing a Combined Range Attack.

Anyway, for Menoth, the Reckoner jack is probably undercosted by a point or so, the castigator and Guardian jacks are probably overcosted by a point or so (or giving them a little more utility). Honestly, if Ashen Veil was on the Castigator instead of the Reckoner, I'd say they'd be both just about right.

The covenant is probably a 3pt solo to be honest, and would still see a fair bit of use if it was. Our jack support is awesome for the cost, but they're symbiotic with our jacks, and their cost is built into that. Idrians would probably see a little more use if they were a point cheaper. Everything else seems about right to me. There isn't anything that is brokenly bad or good for it's points, that it's an auto-include or completely useless, just things which you think are juuust slightly off.

For Cygnar: You're kidding? We're talking about a faction with no multi-wound heavy infantry...

Actually, all the original Warmachine Factions are missing a model type and a special rule. Cygnar have no Medium based infantry, and no Weapon Masters (besides one caster). Khador has no light jacks and no Arc Nodes (besides the Old Witch's light jack with arc node). Menoth has no Weapon Attachments and no Jack Marshals. Cryx... well, they gain Undead and a fair bit of Incorporeal, two positive effects, but then they're Cryx :P

[Tyr852]

Thanks , I didn't realize that about the book

[Matthaeus]

n00buaddib, where are you ? Need your sig.

More seriously, I don't think "having an above average power/point ratio" equals "overpowered". It means exactly what it means, "more powerful than average". Which is inevitable when things are not exactly the same, a fortiori when the point system doesn't allow for relatively small increments (the syndrom of the half-point).

Just wanted to react to the "OP" in the title, since I find the term a bit overused.

And anyway, yeah, nearly all factions have such models in stock or at least an answer to them.

[Lamoron]

Cryx... well, they gain Undead and a fair bit of Incorporeal, two positive effects, but then they're Cryx :P

We still don't have a Jack Marshal... someone once released something that sort of looked like one, but upon closer inspection it was in fact a sandwich.

(...) Revenant Gun Crew is OP (...)

Thank you for the smile on my face

[wargrim]

I have a feeling SoB(sons of bragg) will soon be a top contender here. I could be wrong, but they seem to have surpassed the bears at the same cost. I really look forward to possibly getting a 3 man character unit for skorne.

And I would assume you are indeed wrong. SOBs cost more than the bears and besides their fantastic spray, their abilities aren't as great. Especially since they are affected by one ability at a time only. Not bad, but no bears.

[Brandubh]

To the original poster - most "over-powered" models are "balanced" by the fact that they're characters. So Deathjack, Avatar, Great Bears, Eiryss, etc., are all limited to only one - ever. In tournaments, it's further balanced by the fact that you can only have one in any of your lists.

Now, there's also the notion that you have to consider that Hordes and Warmachine have a points variance. So Eiryss in Hordes would cost 4 points (similar to the Lord of the Feast) and the Great Bears would probably run 5 points. That's not over powered, that's compensating for the variance in game mechanics.

There are a few models (mostly warcasters) who are pretty insane. But I don't see them dominating the tournament scene. If you look at who is winning events on a national level, it's players not lists. You'll see the same names coming up over and over, sometimes with different lists, sometimes with entirely different factions. That's a major indicator that the game is pretty balanced.

[boxur333]

*sigh*^ to the poster above and a few more please note i only use the term op because it is more commonly understood without me having to write a sentence to explain what i mean as i stated in my first post in here no whinning and know every faction has a handfull....i simply wanted to talk about models that some might seem as " op " sorry to use the term again i know it angers the forum gods lol jk but just wanted to see if there are models some never saw as game changing so maybe they will try them now or models that frustrate u because of a strong ability and someone else has a way around it for example the nice fella who told me how to kill the book...please do not take this post as a complaint about pp or the models they make

[PG_dungeongod]

Just realized I meant pEiyrss that has the deathbolt , not epic ^_^ , but yeah the book is urg my friend likes to use it with the rocket tweerps , 10 AoE's that cause fire .. hurt.

The Convenant ("the book") only gives ongoing fire on direct hit - which is a) highly unlikely with deliverers and b)does not apply to anything hit under the template - only to the model targeted, and only if they hit on the die roll. So, your friend is doing it wrong. I would be much more afraid of Idrians or Exemplar Errants with the book with that ability, although I almost always use it's knockdown or spell denial instead.

As for undercosted - I think Great Bears tend to be a little bit cheaper than they should be. I know most of the local Khador players would run them at 6 points pretty consistently. That said, I think most factions have something undercosted.

Khador: Great Bears, Doom Reavers
Cygnar: Black 13th is the most readily apparent
Protectorate: Reckoner, Covenant of Menoth (maybe - it is somewhat situational sometimes, and I have had games where it did nothing for me but get in the way)
Cryx: Deathjack, Tartarus and Bane Thralls (they should really be a 5/9 IMO)
Retribution: Banshee
Mercs: Eiryss2 seems always like she is just undercosted, and the gun bunnies are gross for their points
Legion: Shredders [that animus is gross!], Ravagore[being able to boost, having a decent melee attack, and that animus make it gross]
Circle: Warpwolf Stalker, Shifting Stones
Skorne: Bronzeback Titan [I would take him at 11 a good chunk of the time - but not nearly as often as I do at 10], Gladiator [again, animus]
Trollbloods: Sons of Bragg maybe, although I haven't seen them in action yet. The Axer, with Rush, might be a bit undercosted [although that one is arguable]. And of course, the Bomber
Minions: Gatormen Posse, no experience against Pigs, so I can't speak to those

On all of these, I was having some problems thinking of them, because none of them have felt to me like they were SERIOUSLY undercosted - most of them were "yeah, I could see it being a half point more" or "I can see people still taking that at one point more, just not nearly as much" That said, I am impressed how well balanced this game continues to be DESPITE all of the different pieces.

[Lich_Lord_X]

Storm smiths are incredibly under costed. The ability for a 1 point model to pretty much insta kill any solo/UA within range is dumb. I hate those things so much.

[PG_dungeongod]

Also - I still do not see the huge appeal of the Avatar. He is a good piece - but for 11 points, I would almost always rather have a vanquisher + vassal (which is 10), or a full unit of TFG + UA + Rhupert (which is also 10). He does some nice control, but I just have never had him perform super awesome. I never regret having him, but at 11 points, I would rather those points go somewhere else.

[eveningshadow]

Storm smiths are incredibly under costed. The ability for a 1 point model to pretty much insta kill any solo/UA within range is dumb. I hate those things so much.

Its an power 10 hit at range 10, hardly an instant kill. Its also on a model with defense 13 and 11 armor, hardly an unconquerable juggernaut on the battlefield

Many of the things called overpowered or under priced become less so when not taken in a vacuum and compared to what else a faction does/does not have available to them.

[Taslon]

Its an power 10 hit at range 10, hardly an instant kill. Its also on a model with defense 13 and 11 armor, hardly an unconquerable juggernaut on the battlefield

Many of the things called overpowered or under priced become less so when not taken in a vacuum and compared to what else a faction does/does not have available to them.

Plus move speed, that ignores every element that adds to defense, and stealth for a point each that can now triangulate like a mofo, and your defending it. Thats making me lol. Every faction has models that are above the bell curve in one way or another, but nobody so far has a mk1 Evlad yet.

[eveningshadow]

Every meta is different. I guess I am defending it... but its just never really been a big deal in our circle of gamers. Maybe it gets a zot off. Never ever ever, gets triangulation, unless there is a Firefly, and thats hardly worth the investment in points. Tends to get to single strike something, not kill it, then get killed. lol away i suppose /shrug

[Nuriochi_sol]

For Cygnar: You're kidding? We're talking about a faction with no multi-wound heavy infantry...

I don't like to get in on this threads but Cygnar OP is everything they have with guns, ridiculous high defense and RAT and the ability to kill stealth better than eyeless sight Playing against their gun lines all the time made me quit playing khador, but later i did learn how to get through it but playing the Cygner gun line is still painful experience.

This one always floors me. Gun lines have NEVER worked in my meta; even newer players figure out the work arounds in short order. It's probably why I play my Cygnar so in-your-face. Even why I try to play the occasional gun line, I get over zealous now and move up too soon.

Even as a Cygnar player ignoring lots of Stealth, the Kayazy + UA give me fits. Getting them off the board before they wreck havoc is a challenge (to me anyway). My usual opponents know how to protect the UA and jam them down my throat. It's rough. That said, I wouldn't say they're OP for the cost though.

[PG_Electric Seal]

Storm smiths are incredibly under costed. The ability for a 1 point model to pretty much insta kill any solo/UA within range is dumb. I hate those things so much.

It doesn't hit automatically, it's a 72% chance. They are also some of the easiest models to kill in the game, having armor 11 without wounds. Also FA 3 only. It's not insta-kill either, its a pow 10. You'd need a damage roll of 7-10 to kill most solos, which is about a 42% chance.

So if you compound those numbers, you get only about a %30 chance to kill a solo per turn.

[lastspartacus]

There are quite a few seemingly short sighted model rules out there. But the winner has to be Janissa, by far. Casters would be eHaley.

[AJ the Ronin]

It is pretty upsetting when someone can ignore all of your defensive abilities to kill your models.

They ignore the DEF Stat, period.

At least the mk.2 version need LOS.

[King-of-Storms]

There is a first time for everything

In my defense they have a FA of 3 and in very large games they're extremely hard to stop when have platoons of them bearing down your neck.

you must be new to the game with these opinions.

No, I play against people who use them right actually just how I play Cygnar models to make the most of what they're not capable of. Read Sun Tzu when you get the chance.

Revenant gun crew is bad. Man of wars are mostly bad. I've never seen Menoth take a Seneschal, so I don't know, but I suspect it's not broken. Multi-wound heavy infantry don't actually tend to be very good, so I don't know how that relates to Cygnar.

Revenant gun crew bad huh? Hm, does the ghost shot ring any bells? Cover and concealment don't mean squat, hell it practically shoots through walls. Not to mention another grunt is added per living model killed. I know that sound kinda "meh" but in large games it starts to take its toll.

In my defense the multi-wound infantry need a lower FA is all. In small numbers, yes they're not all that great, but in large numbers it's like a tidal wave of light jacks.

Not that I believe the other stuff on your list is OP, but I'm calling out the things that are generally considered to be the opposite.

That's fine, but you got to realize I'm not bound by the status quo of "public opinion." You can contrast to say that the Satryx Raiders of the Cryx are OP, especially with the Witch attached to it. In all honesty they're a squirmy unit to handle but you take out the Witch the raiders fall quite easily. I usually gun down more than half or nearly the entire unit by the time they get into melee.

Each to their own experience.

[Crate123]

Im going to say menoth choir and skorne beasthandlers. Those units should be 5 points, B13 should be 5 points and kovnik joe should get a major rewrite. Temporal barrier could do with a major overhaul as well.
There are quite a few OP models in the game but the worst, by far, has to be eEiryss. How that ever got through playtesting I will never know. I would completely remove her from the game if I could.

[Driver]

No models are overpowered. Different models work differently and rely on different abilities.

Everyone will have different opinions as a result of this.

[Driver]

No models are overpowered. Different models work differently and rely on different abilities.

Everyone will have different opinions as a result of this.

Everyone's own pieces will not be OP, while everyone else's will be.