OP models?

[MathPasta]

No models are overpowered. Different models work differently and rely on different abilities.

Just some models abilities work better.

[Lich_Lord_X]

It doesn't hit automatically, it's a 72% chance. They are also some of the easiest models to kill in the game, having armor 11 without wounds. Also FA 3 only. It's not insta-kill either, its a pow 10. You'd need a damage roll of 7-10 to kill most solos, which is about a 42% chance.

So if you compound those numbers, you get only about a %30 chance to kill a solo per turn.

Lets not forget that they become much better with e.Nemo. He pretty much garantees that those guys will toast Eiryss on average dice rolls. But in order to get rid of one you need to dedicate a model that is worth more points. I can't think of any one point solo that could reliably kill them so I'm left with using a 2-3 point model to deal with a point bugger. It's a lose/lose situation either one of my more expensive squishy solos gets taken out or I waste a solo to kill a model worth a third of its points.

[SpiderBite]

Ranking Officers.
They should all be done away with.

[sourclams]

In my defense they have a FA of 3 and in very large games they're extremely hard to stop when have platoons of them bearing down your neck.

Yeah, gotta just... stand there... and watch them... not get anywhere near you with their Spd4 and lack of any mobility options.

[jandrese]

Tartarus isn't actually that bad since he still dieds fairly easily if you put some effort into it with most lists.

I can't agree here. ARM 17 + 8 wounds + Stealth makes him pretty safe from most attacks. Most anti-stealth is around POW 10 and unboostable, or is POW 6-8 blast damage and boostable, but still useless.

The thing I hate most is that Curse is not only free, but there's no to-hit check on it. A to-hit check (at say 7) would tone it down a lot.

[MathPasta]

Even though I find MOW sub-par I understand. When there are a ton of them you go "AAAAAh-How am I supposed to get rid of all of them!" instead of just walking around them/ just out maneuvering them.

[HRM]

Even though I find MOW sub-par I understand. When there are a ton of them you go "AAAAAh-How am I supposed to get rid of all of them!" instead of just walking around them/ just out maneuvering them.

When there's 15-20 of them, sometimes it's hard to even get around them all.

[x3tsniper]

And I would assume you are indeed wrong. SOBs cost more than the bears and besides their fantastic spray, their abilities aren't as great. Especially since they are affected by one ability at a time only. Not bad, but no bears.

You would be correct sir. I was under the impression that they were 5 for some reason. At 6 points I really can't say they are better or worse than the bears for their points. All I can say is that the spray with +2/+2 is disgusting. They offer a better utility/variety at the cost of a straight damage output, but they can still do that pretty damned well.

[MathPasta]

True. True. But its just hard to beat in the sense that its just allot of guys. Give me a full unit of Assault Kommandoes that cost 1 point each and I can win through sheer numbers alone as well. Its not that in of themselves they are impressive.

[TIEActor]

biles thrawlls. Easy to kill on paper but a smart player keeps them hidden untill one, JUST ONE blows up half your army. For what they do, they're dirt cheap

[MathPasta]

Bile Thralls are the only ones that I honestly think are over the top. Its just. Too much.

[x3tsniper]

Bile Thralls are pretty ridiculous. Haven't been playing much cryx lately, so I haven't even thought about them.

[joelker41]

Clearly pMadrak's tier is OP....

Trollololol!!!!

[sourclams]

When there's 15-20 of them, sometimes it's hard to even get around them all.

Each MoW is Spd4, has no access to pathfinder, has almost 0 ability to get the alpha strike, and is still generally 1shot by heavies. 15-20 MoW models would be between 27-36 pts at a minimum. That's such a painfully slow, unwieldy force. In a discussion about OP models, I simply don't understand how MoW can even be brought up. Gatormen Posse must just crack the meta wide open wherever these individuals play...

[Custardboy]

Hmm, there's one unit that hasn't been discussed that I consider the most overpowered in the game. The Withershadow Combine.
Seriously, take a look at their rules again. And back down at the '5 points' tag.

[Crate123]

Hmm, there's one unit that hasn't been discussed that I consider the most overpowered in the game. The Withershadow Combine.
Seriously, take a look at their rules again. And back down at the '5 points' tag.

They cost 5 because Cryx cant take eEiryss. Thats my rationale at least.

[Tyr852]

Hrm forgot to add Wardog , for 1 pt the amount he grants and what he can do is crazy.

[PG_Electric Seal]

Lets not forget that they become much better with e.Nemo. He pretty much garantees that those guys will toast Eiryss on average dice rolls. But in order to get rid of one you need to dedicate a model that is worth more points. I can't think of any one point solo that could reliably kill them so I'm left with using a 2-3 point model to deal with a point bugger. It's a lose/lose situation either one of my more expensive squishy solos gets taken out or I waste a solo to kill a model worth a third of its points.

Why do you need to send a solo at them. You can send a unit, or a spell, or blast damage from something. You're kind of presenting worst-case scenarios when dealing with these guys. With eNemo, he's balanced around giving them that extra damage, and is only one of our many casters.

They're also only range 10, so their threat range is super easy to predict and mitigate. All i'm saying is that they aren't worth more than one point; they're fine. I could see them being overpowered if you had 10 of them, but 3 is really not a big deal.

[DemonCalibre]

When there's 15-20 of them, sometimes it's hard to even get around them all.

Actually it's really easy.

"I cast inhospitiable ground", or "My Gun Carriage fires at this guy and this guy", or "My Teleforce cannon fires at this guy", or even "I channel rift through my arc node here"

20 Man'o'War are stopped ice cold by anything that generates terrain. They are slow on the open field, they are useless at speed 2.

[Custardboy]

They cost 5 because Cryx cant take eEiryss. Thats my rationale at least.

So because they can't take her, they don't pay for upkeep removal? If they lost that ability, puppet strings and the free upkeep they'd STILL be worth it.

[Crate123]

So because they can't take her, they don't pay for upkeep removal? If they lost that ability, puppet strings and the free upkeep they'd STILL be worth it.

Aah that would be pushing it, I wouldnt pay 5 points for that. Especially not when b13 cost 4 points.
With Sons of Bragg costing 6 points I could see most of the character units go to 6 points as well tbh.

[Scottl1]

So because they can't take her, they don't pay for upkeep removal? If they lost that ability, puppet strings and the free upkeep they'd STILL be worth it.

That upkeep removal is pretty short range... 5 in whoop di do. Without those abilities I'd just a skarlock and call it a day. It's one of the only ways to get upkeeps off even your own dudes like when they try to drop it on a caster.

[katadder]

Hmm, there's one unit that hasn't been discussed that I consider the most overpowered in the game. The Withershadow Combine.
Seriously, take a look at their rules again. And back down at the '5 points' tag.

did mention them when comparing to black frost shard (and legion cant take eiryss either).
same points but withershadow get stealth always on instead of an action.
same points but withershadow get to dispel any enemy spells within 5" and damage the caster, BFS just get to dispel spells on themselves.
yes BFS can add+2 damage if the guy survives but withershadow get puppet master (which i have found to be nastier), free upkeep, and can create jacks out of enemy ones too.

[Triumph Of Man]

Even though I find MOW sub-par I understand. When there are a ton of them you go "AAAAAh-How am I supposed to get rid of all of them!" instead of just walking around them/ just out maneuvering them.

Squish them with a heavy and laugh? Shred them with banes?

They're pretty easy to tackle head on as well.

[Jables]

For Cryx: Bane Lord Tartarus, Revenant Gun Crew and Death Jack.

For Khador: Man-O-Wars (any variant) and Widowmakers.

For Menoth: Errants, Senecshals, Deliverers and Bastions.

For Cygnar: You're kidding? We're talking about a faction with no multi-wound heavy infantry...

For Retribution: Have not played against a Retribution army yet.

For Mercenaries: None.

Oh man, wish I played in your meta. Not meaning to be rude, but this made my day. If Khador lost Kayazys and Winterguard and Man-O-Wars became their go to unit I would be a much saner player.

Gonna hold my tongue about the rest.

[Josh-o-Lantern]

I can't think of any one point solo that could reliably kill them

they arn't a solo but the Widowmakers are 4 points for 4, making them 1 point a piece and can kill them rather reliably

[Septimus]

Actually it's really easy.

"I cast inhospitiable ground", or "My Gun Carriage fires at this guy and this guy", or "My Teleforce cannon fires at this guy", or even "I channel rift through my arc node here"

20 Man'o'War are stopped ice cold by anything that generates terrain. They are slow on the open field, they are useless at speed 2.

But then the MoW player would just cast Artifice of Deviation or pop eIrusk's feat, wouldn't they?

[x3tsniper]

Squish them with a heavy and laugh? Shred them with banes?

They're pretty easy to tackle head on as well.

When there are 3 rows of them, it really isn't that easy. On the occasion that I play a tier2 butcher tier list, I run my STs up front, with DCs back and to the left/right and my Bombardiers back and to the other side(depends on my opponent. It usually just crushes them. I have crushed cryx armies running deathjack, nightmare, and seether. Yes they managed to kill ALL of my shock troopers, but they killed one Bombadier and nothing else. I popped feat and killed them with attacks to spare. Granted I can't vouch for the sanity of these jacks under Witch Coven, but there just wasn't anything he could do to get at my back lines.

When I drop them down, my friends usually hate me. I have lost maybe 1/5 games doing this.

Note: It is hugely entertaining when something charges my STs, and Drakhun counter Charges from behind them and rips the arm off something. I usually have fury sitting on him ahead of time specifically for this purpose. Oo Helps them live a little longer. If we ever get a caster attachment that can cast our spells for us, fury with butcher will be amazing on feat turn.

Actually it's really easy.

"I cast inhospitiable ground", or "My Gun Carriage fires at this guy and this guy", or "My Teleforce cannon fires at this guy", or even "I channel rift through my arc node here"

20 Man'o'War are stopped ice cold by anything that generates terrain. They are slow on the open field, they are useless at speed 2.

I have actually had my front line of STs survive maybe 2-3 rounds against dedicated retribution shooting list. Oo

[Rochr]

Avatar and Deathjack are broken as hell. Reckoner could be 9 Pts as well.

[Azuresun]

biles thrawlls. Easy to kill on paper but a smart player keeps them hidden untill one, JUST ONE blows up half your army. For what they do, they're dirt cheap

They only really jump to "broken" when Excarnate is on the field, but yeah. If Purge was LOS-based, Strength 10, didn't affect models behind cover, caused damage or continuous corrosion, if corrosion immunity was actually on more than a handful of models, if it was classed as blast damage...anything, just give me some way to defend against it other than "You missed one, remove your infantry from the table."

[PG_Wankel]

tartarus is the worst offender. if curse was a special action it might make him ok.
withershadow combine, like BFS but better for same points, they get stealth without having to do an action, they can dispel more than just the stuff on their unit.
B13th maybe but at 5pts think they would be over costed. thats the problem with the small number of available points. so many things could be better off half a point more or half a point less.

I feel guitly

[Hai-pe-neki]

Excluding casters, that would need a topic just for them..

Tartarus: "So, we balance Undead rule giving to undeads lower speed and lower MAT compared to other elite melee infantry" "Yeah, but why don't make also a model that is a monster by himself and also has a Free, Auto-hitting offensive ability that grants to those undeads more MAT and speed?"

Warwitch Siren: It's not OP by herself, just...it was really needed to squeeze so much abilities in a single 2pt model?

Forsaken: I'm a legion player, and i feel this one, even if no OP, is incredible in her versatility and possible impact on a game.

Gorman: Saved for last. Completely no-sense IMHO

[HRM]

Squish them with a heavy and laugh? Shred them with banes?

They're pretty easy to tackle head on as well.

Are people really wasting heavies on Man O' Wars?

[Custardboy]

Forsaken: I'm a legion player, and i feel this one, even if no OP, is incredible in her versatility and possible impact on a game.

Have only seen a forsaken do anything interesting twice, both times blight-bombing a camping caster who didn't know what they do. Other than that they just kill maybe 2 guys.

I would totally take the WSC with the nerfs I said in any of my factions. Terror, stealth, good P+S, very hard to kill, boostable high magic ability bolts, weapon master against jacks and then making your own. They just wouldn't be auto-include.

[Falkman]

Are people really wasting heavies on Man O' Wars?

If there's nothing else in the enemy army you might as well.

[MathPasta]

When there are 3 rows of them, it really isn't that easy. On the occasion that I play a tier2 butcher tier list, I run my STs up front, with DCs back and to the left/right and my Bombardiers back and to the other side(depends on my opponent. It usually just crushes them. I have crushed cryx armies running deathjack, nightmare, and seether.

Did they try slamming? Now THATS infuriating. "Alright your shield wall is broken, this guy is knocked down and so are the guys behind them, now I charge the cluster that remains"

[Cambrian]

Stormsmiths... Hate them just so much... A severely under-costed solo that kills my severely under-costed warwitch sirens with ease.

Also bile thralls are not over the top; look at their stats. DEF 10, ARM 13, SPD 5, RAT 3... They take a great deal of work to get across the field since they are so slow and fragile and with that kind of RAT they rarely do anything if not purging.

Cryx... well, they gain Undead and a fair bit of Incorporeal, two positive effects, but then they're Cryx :P

Actually Cryx lacks decent ranged units... The only good "ranged" unit they have is the WSC which is only 3 models large and tends to sling spells as a last resort... Its actually quite painful how much you notice a lack of range...

[scout's honor]

Also bile thralls are not over the top; look at their stats. DEF 10, ARM 13, SPD 5, RAT 3... They take a great deal of work to get across the field since they are so slow and fragile and with that kind of RAT they rarely do anything if not purging.

As already mentioned earlier by someone else, it's not Bile Thralls - it's Bile Thralls in combo with Excarnate. Otherwise it's the same as saying the WGI isn't all that good because the bare bones unit indeed isn't anything special: nobody cares about that because you won't see anyone play a bare bones WGI unit. Other than that: "they rarely do anything if not purging" is not much of an argument when purging seems to be the whole point of the model, and the fact that they're not easy to get across the field doesn't mean that much to me when getting just one across the field is usually enough to earn back the points for all of them that got destroyed underway as well.

Actually Cryx lacks decent ranged units... The only good "ranged" unit they have is the WSC which is only 3 models large and tends to sling spells as a last resort... Its actually quite painful how much you notice a lack of range...

Pirates.

[Hai-pe-neki]

Have only seen a forsaken do anything interesting twice, both times blight-bombing a camping caster who didn't know what they do. Other than that they just kill maybe 2 guys.

I would totally take the WSC with the nerfs I said in any of my factions. Terror, stealth, good P+S, very hard to kill, boostable high magic ability bolts, weapon master against jacks and then making your own. They just wouldn't be auto-include.

Well, if she has done what you described, probably she has also done atleast two times another interesting thing: fury management!

Don't know, i have never seen the fairy tale of a forsaken one-shotting a focus camping caster become true in any of my games

But i have used her plenty of times to soften fully loaded enemy warbeasts, rolling 6-7 dices at -11 usually. Or for clearing low armor infantry. Given that she's a fury management model, even just the 2 full boosted pow 12 attacks often makes her repay her cost!

[gaminguy]

Ranking Officers.
They should all be done away with.

Gotta agree here, that's a screwy concept and it makes the slightly borken Merc stuff that much more annoying.

Im going to say menoth choir and skorne beasthandlers. Those units should be 5 points, B13 should be 5 points and kovnik joe should get a major rewrite. Temporal barrier could do with a major overhaul as well.
There are quite a few OP models in the game but the worst, by far, has to be eEiryss. How that ever got through playtesting I will never know. I would completely remove her from the game if I could.

PEiryss, EEiryss, and Gorman. When a two-three point model puts your whole game plan on hold until they're dead something is wrong.

Choir and Beasthandlers cost so little because the extra points that they should cost are built into the stats of the 'jacks / 'beasts they buff. The Bronzeback is still pretty good, but he's a lot less scary when he has to pay to charge and tops out at P+S 17. A loaded Stormclad matches it for damage on ARM 20 and throws 4 Electro-leaps in the process (so say goodby to those Mechaniks), and that's in range-centric Cygnar. (And it has a gun so it's doing something on the way in, and a higher speed and reach so it's a lot more likely to get the charge.) Choir and Beasthandlers are darn good, but their factions are built around them.