OP models?

[tallted]

I was UNDERwhelmed when I read Son's of Bragg. They will have there place, much like the Great Bears. People will love them and others will find a better use for 5 points.

6 points (10 char)

[lawyerpants]

That's probably why I was underwhelmed actually.

[Septimus]

I just don't understand you here.

So you saying that:



Well lets take an equivilancy test shall we?

Juggernaut vs Crusader with Choir.

Mat 6, Pow 19 vs Mat 8 Pow 20.

Destroyer vs Vanquisher with Choir
Rat 4, Pow 14 (Pow 7 blast Damage) vs Rat 6 Pow 16, AOE 4" (Pow 9 Blast Damage)

Agree with you on the Juggernaut/Crusader thing, but the discrepancy in ranges (and fire, and arcing fire) makes your Destroyer/Vanquisher comparison somewhat disingenuous.

[sourclams]

Menoth is certainly a jack faction, but Khadors not really a jack faction at all. Their jacks are all low MAT and RAT and generally overcosted for what they do. Khador is mostly an infantry faction and they really only use warjacks with warcasters that have ways of increasing their attack rolls.

That's entirely my point. On an individual basis, Menoth jacks are generally as bad or worse than Khador jacks, the faction that generally never takes more than a single 'good' jack. Add about 7 pts worth of synergy models, tho, and suddenly it's best-jacks-in-game territory.

[gaminguy]

Well I wasnt suggesting actually losing enrage or the choir, I was suggesting actually paying for it (2 points is nowhere near the price it should be) or rebalancing it because IMO its too good for its price

I was suggesting exactly that as an illustration of my point; take away the Beast Handlers and Skorne struggles to play effectively, ergo Skorne must be balanced around the Beast Handlers and would need adjustment without them. Skorne isn't winning everything with Beast Handlers, ergo their low point cost must be offset somewhere.

I dont buy your idea that the entire faction is balanced around having this super buffing unit at a such a low price.

Well, at least that's a cognizant statement. I can pile evidence up but I can't make you concede the point; the best argument I can really offer is "go play Skorne without the Beast Handlers and see how they fair", I think you'd be surprised at how limited they feel without that set of buffs.

[SteakAndSpirits]

I can pile evidence up but I can't make you concede the point; the best argument I can really offer is "go play Skorne without the Beast Handlers and see how they fair", I think you'd be surprised at how limited they feel without that set of buffs.

Alternately, you could just quote PPS_Soles from the MK II Field Test for Skorne, where he specifically discussed the limitations of design space around Skorne because they must be balanced around access to Beast Handlers.

I'm not sure if there's better evidence than just quoting the lead designer.

-s&s

Edit: Given the nearly identical design space that both Beast Handlers and Choir occupy, I think that quoting Soles in the context of Skorne should just as well quiet any disagreement on the Protectorate as well.

[gaminguy]

Alternately, you could just quote PPS_Soles from the MK II Field Test for Skorne, where he specifically discussed the limitations of design space around Skorne because they must be balanced around access to Beast Handlers.

I'm not sure if there's better evidence than just quoting the lead designer.

-s&s

Edit: Given the nearly identical design space that both Beast Handlers and Choir occupy, I think that quoting Soles in the context of Skorne should just as well quiet any disagreement on the Protectorate as well.

You would think that, but just look how often people question what the heck PP was thinking with this or that model because it is so blatently OP/UP/meh. Somehow I doubt quoting the lead designer would carry all that much weight.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Somehow I doubt quoting the lead designer would carry all that much weight.

Don't try to confuse us with the facts!

-s&s

[rivenwyrm]

I mean, have you seen Soles in person? That guy's got a creepy glint in his eye. I don't think we can trust him. For goodness' sake, Bane Cavalry! Warmachine has jumped the shark, it's all over, 2xStormwall+pHaley will win all tournaments and UFC fights from here to the moon, plus it's doing well in the poker circuits.

Sorry, I just had to say it. I actually think this is a fun discussion topic.

The game is structured and point costed in such a way that some models can feel exceedingly different for near the same cost. A good puzzle, as stated above, is comparing Yuri and Tartarus. The issue is that we can't really know if there's just bad balance on one of the models, if they had in mind particular synergies or if other ethereal qualities (such as Tartarus being a "flagship" model) weighed in. We can debate it endlessly however.

[gaminguy]

Don't try to confuse us with the facts!

-s&s

Let me confuse you with some facts:

Look at a Gladiator charging an ARM 20 target. By itself it can make 5 attacks at dice -4 damage for roughty 18 damage, with Enrage it can make an extra attack at dice -2 damage for roughly 33 damage. By those numbers the Beast handlers are "worth" roughly 90% of the Gladiator, call it 7 points for conversation, per Gladiator up to the number of Beast Handlers on the table. The percentage is lower for a Bronzeback because he already kills things, and much lower for a Savage since P+S 15 isn't that much more impressive than P+S 13 against a lot of armor.

In theory, if I take a Gladiator, Bronzeback, and Brute, my Beast Handlers should actually cost around 16 points. There's no sane way to balance that other than building the cost into the beasts.

Edit: In retrospect I guess I can make a more convincing argument than "go try it".

[Crate123]

Let me confuse you with some facts:

Look at a Gladiator charging an ARM 20 target. By itself it can make 5 attacks at dice -4 damage for roughty 18 damage, with Enrage it can make an extra attack at dice -2 damage for roughly 33 damage. By those numbers the Beast handlers are "worth" roughly 90% of the Gladiator, call it 7 points for conversation, per Gladiator up to the number of Beast Handlers on the table. The percentage is lower for a Bronzeback because he already kills things, and much lower for a Savage since P+S 15 isn't that much more impressive than P+S 13 against a lot of armor.

In theory, if I take a Gladiator, Bronzeback, and Brute, my Beast Handlers should actually cost around 16 points. There's no sane way to balance that other than building the cost into the beasts.

Edit: In retrospect I guess I can make a more convincing argument than "go try it".

So how much would a gladiator be if you didnt have access to the beasthandlers ?

[Craaag]

I think the things that strike me as overpowering in the game are the 2 pt solos and mini units which can have such an impact on the game, often capable of directly aiding in a win.

Things like Covenant, Agonizer (denies Focus allocation to all jacks around it- ouch!) and little buff units like Choir and Beasthandlers. Not that the models and effects are so OP that your opponent can't deal with it just that for the point cost the relative benefits seem to be worth alot more.

I fully expect the 9-12 point models to be powerful and be able to singlehandedly trash things and directly aid in the win. It just surprises me when these "little guys" have such a huge impact.

[West996]

I think the things that strike me as overpowering in the game are the 2 pt solos and mini units which can have such an impact on the game, often capable of directly aiding in a win.

Things like Covenant, Agonizer (denies Focus allocation to all jacks around it- ouch!) and little buff units like Choir and Beasthandlers. Not that the models and effects are so OP that your opponent can't deal with it just that for the point cost the relative benefits seem to be worth alot more.

I fully expect the 9-12 point models to be powerful and be able to singlehandedly trash things and directly aid in the win. It just surprises me when these "little guys" have such a huge impact.

The thing to keep in mind here is that those are support models. By themselves they are worth next to nothing. So you have to factor the points into the things they support.

Imagine you doubled the points of the choir but reduced the costs of the Jacks they support. Players would then just flood the field with cheap Jacks and forgo the support.

If you fielded the cheap choir with no Jacks they are worthless. So they are cheap because they only become useful after you field the more expensive pieces they are intended to support.

The Yuri/Tartar debate is interesting too, but it always comes down to what each model provides for its respective faction. Which holes do they fill?

Would TarTar be taken as often in Khdor as it is in Cryx?

[gaminguy]

So how much would a gladiator be if you didnt have access to the beasthandlers ?

I would expect changes over the entire range: battlegroup spells (of which we have none), buffing animus for hitting power and "free" charges (Massacre, Rage, etc.), and a number of small tweaks and additional special rules like Regeneration, Snacking, free tramples, free charges, increased STR and increased FUR stats spread over the beast range.

[Crate123]

I would expect changes over the entire range: battlegroup spells (of which we have none), buffing animus for hitting power and "free" charges (Massacre, Rage, etc.), and a number of small tweaks and additional special rules like Regeneration, Snacking, free tramples, free charges, increased STR and increased FUR stats spread over the beast range.

I see what you mean but tbh I still think they are too cheap. I agree that skorne dont get a lot of beast buffing but the beasthandlers do so much for such a low price and its not like the beast themselves are bad at all (and you do have good infantry buffs). I still think the unit could stand to cost 4/5. Your points are good though and while they explain at least why (and possibly the price as well, I just dont agree) you have beasthandlers, I fail to see the same for choir since menoth has bonus focus, battlegroup spells, vassal, good jacks (for their price) and spells that buff them out the wazoo.

[Aylw]

In isolation the BB isn't an 11-12 pt beast. He's Spd4, with medium-pow/high volume attacks. It's only when included in a 20 point module (Glad, BHs) that he begins to shine.

I'd definitely take Stalker/Scythean, maybe even Ravagore, over BB if we were looking at standalone models.

I disagree about BB. It's not just his high number of attacks; His special abilities are sick, and he's got bucketloads of survivability.

Add in the fact of life that is BH and casters with defender's ward, and he's insane.

I thought I just didn't understand the Bronzeback, until I played using him. He makes me feel dirty.

I suppose you're right, though. If defender's ward and BH were appropriately costed (not sure how you do DW?), you wouldn't have to push Bronzeback up to 12.

[Sheer_Falacy]

Let me confuse you with some facts:

Look at a Gladiator charging an ARM 20 target. By itself it can make 5 attacks at dice -4 damage for roughty 18 damage, with Enrage it can make an extra attack at dice -2 damage for roughly 33 damage. By those numbers the Beast handlers are "worth" roughly 90% of the Gladiator, call it 7 points for conversation, per Gladiator up to the number of Beast Handlers on the table. The percentage is lower for a Bronzeback because he already kills things, and much lower for a Savage since P+S 15 isn't that much more impressive than P+S 13 against a lot of armor.

How is doing 33 instead of 18 worth 90% of the model? That sounds like it's worth 50%, at best.

[gaminguy]

How is doing 33 instead of 18 worth 90% of the model? That sounds like it's worth 50%, at best.

33 / 2 = 16.5
16.5 / 18 = .9333 = 93.333%

[Gandalfrockman]

I Play khador pretty much exclusivley.

As far as OP models- I don't really think there are any out there except maybe eiryss (both versions) I'm not saying this because she instantly wins games, but because in my local meta (and many others) you have to either bring eiryss, or something thats specifically dedicated to dealing with her. Even if its just a perception caused by meta I think there is a fundamental truth at the bottom of it all:Eiryss does too much for too little cost.

As far as undercosted units:
Deathjack(cryx) It is capable of doing obscene amounts of damage, casting spells, repairing itself, carrying 5 focus, taking one hell of a beating, etc. And all this for a point less than every other factions equivalent peice?

Great Bears (Khador) Realistically, yeah they are a bit much for 5 points, I havent had to go up against them, but when you see them basically dismantle whole units, and barely take a scratch, all without really tapping into their fun range of bells and whistles? Yeah 5 is prolly a point too low.

Units perceived by newer players to be overpowered/undercosted:
ManoWars/BaneThralls: These are both units that are extremely hard to get rid of in large numbers.
One unit of bane thralls/Man o Wars isnt that bad, a whole army of them is really tough to take down.
and if you don't know how to deal with them they seem pretty much unstoppable.

Khador isn't the "Jack Faction" But khador can certainly run Some very Jack heavy lists, typically by spamming a spell like unearthly rage or broadsides that effects our entire battlegroup in a way similar to allocating loads of focus to it. We don't have the focus to pull off a menoth style jack list, but we can do our own nasty Jack heavy lists thanks to casters like Harkevich and Karchev, and thanks to our fantastic mechanics (the new mechanik UA is actually pretty damned awesome in this regard)

[Sheer_Falacy]

As far as undercosted units:
Deathjack(cryx) It is capable of doing obscene amounts of damage, casting spells, repairing itself, carrying 5 focus, taking one hell of a beating, etc. And all this for a point less than every other factions equivalent peice?

It's actually that Behemoth does it at a point more. DJ and Thunderhead are 12, Behemoth is 13, Avatar is 11. Not that they're equivalent, but Avatar is the cheap one.

[Scottl1]

I know he's not a jack but mulg is also 12 pts so DJ isn't that above and beyond compared to other 12 pt heavy pieces.

[Drzombieface]

It's actually that Behemoth does it at a point more. DJ and Thunderhead are 12, Behemoth is 13, Avatar is 11. Not that they're equivalent, but Avatar is the cheap one.

The Avatar is only cheaper because it gives up Battlegroup benefits. But thankfully for Menoth, no one cares about battlegroups for buffing the crap out of jacks.

I know he's not a jack but mulg is also 12 pts so DJ isn't that above and beyond compared to other 12 pt heavy pieces.

Except he's still the Deathjack and the Deathjack is really damn good.

[Scottl1]

Never said Dj wasn't good. lol But dudes like Mulg are also very good and can snack, reach, magic weapon, extra attack with doomy, 5 fury, etc.

In the realm of heavy hitters like Avatar, Mulg, DJ, Molik, BB, etc They're all really damn good.

[Tarma]

I think I would devolp further, because I think we perhaps talk past each other.

It looks as you think on effectiveness primarily, when you say: This is the "Jack Faction".

I see more on two other things.

1: How many jacks, can you runn, more or less effectiv, and yes I admit, that a jack in a battlegroup, is more effectiv, than one outside is. Cygnar has so many Jack Marshals, so in bigger games, a cygnar player, can take a ridiculous number of jacks, if he exploit that fully. And one of the most used, (and hatred), jacks, can you not, use any battlegroup spells on: The Avatar.

2: The fuff. I think that a great part, of the Protectorate's population, would be happy, if they could just drop all jacks, and go back to the "old-fashioned" way of making wars on. And the Protectorate is, like Khador, not the most advanced, in the IK.

About the reclaimer versus the Overseer: The Overseer can do something, without souls, the Reclaimer can only walk after the jacks, and hope he get some souls, before he get killed.

About the support: A protectorate player must use, between 1/5 and 1/3 of the point, on suport, like it or not, and all suport models is easy to kill, (in my last game, the half of my Choir get killed, only because a outsize puppy, throw one of my Wracks after them, before it teleport back to safety).

About spells: Remember a type of spells, as the Protectorate is lacking, is speed spells. And it is spells, who is the reason to, that Khador can run jack heavy lists, and overkome its lack of speed.

Tarma

[scout's honor]

About spells: Remember a type of spells, as the Protectorate is lacking, is speed spells. And it is spells, who is the reason to, that Khador can run jack heavy lists, and overkome its lack of speed.

The top-4 casters who can run multiple/3+ jacks well (or at least reasonably well) in Khador are arguably Karchev, Harkevich, pButcher and pVlad. Harkevich has Escort, I'll give you that one, Karchev has Tow, which is already more iffy (and I see the Sidearm-style Karchev more often than the Tow-style Karchev), pVlad has Boundless Charge which he can usually only cast on a single jack since he wants S&P or BoK more and pButcher can't do squat about his jacks' speed.

Honestly, the reason Khador can run jack-heavy lists is not that we can increase the speed of a jack. The reason is that some of our casters have a way to be fairly focus-efficient for one or more turns (and having a couple focus-efficient jacks) and really it's the same way for any other jack faction. Movement speed isn't half as important as getting boosted attack rolls, boosted damage rolls or extra attacks without having to spend a ton of focus. pVlad can run jacks because of S&P and because of his feat. pButcher: feat, Fury, Full Throttle. Karchev: feat and Unearthly Rage rather than Tow. Harkevich: feat, Black Ivan's affinity and Fortune - Escort is great for a jack caster to have, but doesn't make a caster a jack caster. Generally speaking you can say that about any kind of ability that improves jack speed: great to have if you're a jack caster, fairly unimpressive if you can't get around the focus limitations on what you can get your jacks to do - and that's exactly what all those support models the PoM has provide. The "charges for free" part of Boundless Charge is easily as important as the added charge range.

Not having a jack under 6 points, 7 if you want something truly effective, doesn't do Khador any favours either.

[Binz]

Would TarTar be taken as often in Khdor as it is in Cryx?

If Khador also had Bane Thralls/Knights, yes

Actually, even without them Tartatus brings Dark Shroud which is a buff only Ragman provides to Khador at the moment, so probably.

[MathPasta]

About spells: Remember a type of spells, as the Protectorate is lacking, is speed spells.

*Wipes away tear*

Heh

Escort
Mobility
Crusaders Call
Perdition
True Path

Some even give Pathfinder. You also have Enliven from the Shackled caster guy

Cygnar has so many Jack Marshals

Not all of them good or have special abilities, and none of them compare to menothian benefits.

They have the Dude (Pretty good. Can provide free snipe)
Sword Night officer (Gives pronto) But you have to take the unit+UA for that
Field Mechanic leader. No special ability
And the Journeyman Warcaster (Can reliably fuel for 3 focus or cast shield) Very good. Exactly a mini caster
And Alan Strangeways can give 1 focus without marshaling.

About the reclaimer versus the Overseer: The Overseer can do something, without souls

Provide stealth and give 1 psuedo focus to each jack at best. You already have a form of Stealth in the form of the Choir. Its use VS stealth is debatable but they do not take away battlegroup abilities.

Reclaimer can only walk after the jacks, and hope he get some souls, before he get killed.

Just like the overseer except cheaper, with a larger range, more effective, and doesn't take away your many speed buffs.

The fuff. I think that a great part, of the Protectorate's population, would be happy, if they could just drop all jacks, and go back to the "old-fashioned" way of making wars on. And the Protectorate is, like Khador, not the most advanced, in the IK.

I honestly think that they are making that part up. They reverse engineered an arcnode before Khador did and constructed Colossals. By this point they can drop the act.

[Gandalfrockman]

Freeking double post !!!!

[Gandalfrockman]

I honestly think that they are making that part up. They reverse engineered an arcnode before Khador did and constructed Colossals. By this point they can drop the act.

I Think Khador has deliberatley chosen not to create arc nodes. Those are resources they would much rather devote to moar axe 2 face.

Also Scouts right, it isn't movement spells that allow Khador to run jack heavy lists. It's spells like Unearthly Rage that are the key, the more jacks we bring the more efficient those spells become.
Unearthly rage with (assuming each jack has two melee attacks):
1 Jacks = 4 Focus
2 Jacks = 8 Focus
3 Jacks = 12 Focus
and so on...
This means Karchev with 3+ Jacks is actually miraculously focus efficient since he only pays out 3 focus and receives benefits that would normally require the expenditure of 12 + focus.
The trade off is flexibility. That isnt getting us charges, power attacks, or extra attacks just boosted attack and damage on all melee. (Which is freaking amazing with units that dont need focus to run or charge)