Post-mortem discussion of Cygnar 3Mo v. Khador EShorcha collosal battle on BOLS

[unyuzyall]

Here is a link to the BOLS battle report: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/...khador-vs.html

I think the Khador player made some obvious mistakes, like feeding Beast09 to the stormclad; but I think the Cygnar player played a Epic3 Nemo army that will be played a lot to maximize arcing lightning shots, and this army is an effective counter to Iron-fleshed winterguard or stealthed Kayazy.

The Khador player took a reasonable risk- win the game if you can roll 10 on three dice, as damage would be about 3d6-1 and then doubled.

But, what would be a better army to play against the Epic3 Nemo Stormwall army, given all of the auto-hitting lightning flying around?

Maybe this new meta will push Khador players to dust off their MOWST?

[x3tsniper]

Already been dusting mine off. Got in 8-9 games with them in the past month or so.

[unyuzyall]

So far, Khador's Arm17 infantry, and arm19 Cav, and cheap beatsticks like Juggs and Kodiak seem to be the best response to auto-hitting pow10s, and boosted electrical shots.

[@Kriegsspiele]

So far, Khador's Arm17 infantry, and arm19 Cav, and cheap beatsticks like Juggs and Kodiak seem to be the best response to auto-hitting pow10s, and boosted electrical shots.

I'm definitely putting one of my bets on the good old Uhlans with p/eVlad or Butcher vs. the Stormwall and other http://j.mp/Colossals

[KhaosSpectyr]

Maybe this new meta will push Khador players to dust off their MOWST?

mmm i love my MOW, and im glad that theyre becoming popular again

[ScottEBJJ]

Here is a link to the BOLS battle report: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/...khador-vs.html

I think the Khador player made some obvious mistakes, like feeding Beast09 to the stormclad; but I think the Cygnar player played a Epic3 Nemo army that will be played a lot to maximize arcing lightning shots, and this army is an effective counter to Iron-fleshed winterguard or stealthed Kayazy.

The Khador player took a reasonable risk- win the game if you can roll 10 on three dice, as damage would be about 3d6-1 and then doubled.

But, what would be a better army to play against the Epic3 Nemo Stormwall army, given all of the auto-hitting lightning flying around?

Maybe this new meta will push Khador players to dust off their MOWST?

Which is something that Cygnar has always handled very well. I would not define Cygnar blowing away single wound low-arm infantry as anything approaching a new meta.

[Sinsation]

Something I don't know about, if Beast 09 had taken his hyper-aggressive to shuffle forwards, up behind the wall, could that have been important?

[Jake the Dog]

I'm glad there is a push towards using higher ARM infantry. Man-o-Wars have always looked solid to me and we're the only faction with Multiple Wound Medium based Infantry than can be reasonable healed. I can't understand why that hasn't been exploited at some major event yet.

[Tyr852]

I'm glad there is a push towards using higher ARM infantry. Man-o-Wars have always looked solid to me and we're the only faction with Multiple Wound Medium based Infantry than can be reasonable healed. I can't understand why that hasn't been exploited at some major event yet.

Imo because for the points you can get things that did a similar if not better job , I wouldn't say they will become popular so much as might have to use as it's not like they became better costed they just became better suited to the meta.

[x3tsniper]

I suspect our meta will head a bit paper rock scissors in the future. Heavy armor lists and infantry machine list. Hopefully you choose the right one to fight whichever list your opponent decides to pick.

You could mix them up I suppose. >.>

[DemonCalibre]

Which is something that Cygnar has always handled very well. I would not define Cygnar blowing away single wound low-arm infantry as anything approaching a new meta.

This

Dead Eyed Gun Mages have been doing this forever. I am not really concerned about Cygnar killing Kayazy and Nyss dead, they already did.

[quindraco]

Maybe this new meta will push Khador players to dust off their MOWST?

When people say this, it always makes me think they don't understand why MoW are unpopular. Just because other infantry might be less durable now doesn't mean the MoW's problems have suddenly disappeared. Your MoW ST will still get to the party late and shot up and have very low attack volume for their points when they get there. They're still worse than the medium wound infantry available to many other factions, the most extreme examples continuing to be Trollblood Champions.

What will really happen if our good infantry options - WGI, Kayazy, Nyss, and to a lesser extent IFP, although I am hoping for a resurgence soon with the new Kovnik - get shut down is that our faction will get shut down, not that we'll switch to winning with Kossites and AKs. This is not a DOOM post and I do not think this is happening - but make no mistake, our bad options aren't just outclassed by our good options, they're outclassed by the good options in other factions as well, and will continue to be until new releases or a new edition change that.

In the unlikely event of a true meta shift in that direction, frankly, you'll also see a strong shift towards Hordes, because they've always relied on their heavies much more than Warmachine, just as we rely on our infantry more. In a format where high ARM is king, only a few warcasters will be able to keep up with things like a Skorne list with three or four titans in it. It is my firm opinion that this is not happening, so I am not worried, but that is what would happen. Actually, the order I'd rank the Colossals in roughly corresponds to the factions I think needed the most help competitively, which might explain why we got the worst or second worst one of the lot, since we do so well in tournaments, and I suspect the overall shift will simply be towards more equality, not less.

[Tico Love]

Just because other infantry might be less durable now doesn't mean the MoW's problems have suddenly disappeared.

Thank you!

[thrasymacus]

You saved me the trouble of writing pretty much the exact same thing quindraco. Most Khador players got into the game for the vanilla jacks and the MoW's, only shifting to the light infantry later after getting hammered into the dirt game after game. A big part of that is the learning curve (so they'd be losing no matter what they took), but part of that curve is learning which models under perform and that's usually are MoW's and cheaper jacks. I haven't run Uhlans since MKI and I don't see how they've improved except for formation rules. Vlad3 didn't do much for them and Vlad2 turns everyone into a monster.

[Tossy]

Why does everyone think that the meta will shift because of a single faction? Are that many people playing Cygnar that we all have to run screaming to the high arm. Not only that but how many people have played against the stormwall at this point and lost so badly that they don't think they could have won in any way? Even to look at it the other way, if Cygnar came up against Skorne for example, could the list hold its own. Mostly likely not, anti-infantry against 2 bronzebacks if not a good strategy. The lists will be built balanced and with that no bad will come of it.

If you are afraid there are some great lists you can build with eIrusk and Shockies. Uhlans are actually very good, if you don't listen to forum speak, I use them a lot and have performed very well... hell if they are good enough for Jamie P who are we all to argue ^_^.

The rest of the colossals shore up weaknesses of a faction,... except Khador. Saying that, they are not going to be in every list and they are really not that scary. I have faced the stormwall 4 times and most of the others at least once and while they have caused me to take a different strategy, I have not taken a different list.

[Sinsation]

It's not that the meta will shift because of a single faction. It's a shift due to several new model types, new base sizes, and multiple new books. The battle engines have only just recently been out, now a new model type in colossals and gargantuans, with more coming down the pipeline.

Times are a changin.

[Tossy]

I don't deny there is a change, but once again my lists have not... except to add some of these new models. Again I am reading that the shift to high arm infantry is coming because of 1 model (again this turned into a stormwall argument). It is just a fallacy. The stormwall is not that scary. Seriously. Neither are the rest of the large CD size bases. They are good additions but not a massive shift in how the game is played. A shift yes but not the doom and gloom people are crying from the bell towers

[Sinsation]

I don't deny there is a change, but once again my lists have not... except to add some of these new models. Again I am reading that the shift to high arm infantry is coming because of 1 model (again this turned into a stormwall argument). It is just a fallacy. The stormwall is not that scary. Seriously. Neither are the rest of the large CD size bases. They are good additions but not a massive shift in how the game is played. A shift yes but not the doom and gloom people are crying from the bell towers

Wait until you see the new hordes casters, gargantuans, the new Eiryss character unit, and some of the new models coming out in the next Warmachine books. I think you'll change your mind on that.

[ScottEBJJ]

Wait until you see the new hordes casters, gargantuans, the new Eiryss character unit, and some of the new models coming out in the next Warmachine books. I think you'll change your mind on that.

If you actually had information on new models you would not be talking about it on this forum.

[quindraco]

If you actually had information on new models you would not be talking about it on this forum.

Well, we DO know that legendairy Lylyth will be a Battle Engine, so there's definitely a high ARM warlock on the horizon.

[Sinsation]

If you actually had information on new models you would not be talking about it on this forum.

I wouldn't, but then again, others would. Point stands clear though. We have no idea what will be coming down the pipeline, and wrath was really just the beginning of a big change in the game. We don't even fully know what the gargantuans will do, let alone the new casters, units, solos, and so on, so saying that infantry won't be affected by them is greatly premature. A shift is coming, maybe small, but not likely.

Every circle caster will have access to an animus which is essentially a second feat at fury 5, for boosted magic attack rolls in a magic heavy faction with plentiful access to crit KD. Many other factions are getting more access to strong AoE carpet bombing, resistance to low power infantry attacks (WGI/WGRC/Kayazy), and other ways to kill our light infantry. When the current khador groupthink is that our tier of options goes WGI/Kayazy/IFP -> Kossites/AK -> Quit playing Khador altogether, yeah. I don't think that's going to stick around.

[Tossy]

WGI/Kayazy/IFP -> Kossites/AK -> Quit playing Khador altogether, yeah. I don't think that's going to stick around.

lets be fair, people put Man-o-Wars, Uhlans, Nyss, Boomhowlers, Doomreavers and widowmakers somewhere between all of that. Mercs are awesome. Boomie in Khador might just be making a comeback though. I would love that

[scout's honor]

I'm pretty sure that for myself at least I'll be going more jack-heavy (even if the options there are few) long before I'll start using MoW with any regularity, when it comes to adapting to anti light infantry becoming more prevalent. As so eloquently explained by quindraco, MoW didn't suddenly become better than they were just now. I had some hope for the Mechanik UA, but practical experience so far doesn't lead me to believe he makes a big difference in how viable MoW are (or aren't, as the case may be). Besides, whatever shift there is it's not just about the light infantry shredding, it's also about more - and more effective - large to colossal/gargantuan models. MoW aren't the answer to that either, in my experience.

Boomie in Khador might just be making a comeback though.

Never went away, as far as I'm concerned.

[Tossy]

I'm pretty sure that for myself at least I'll be going more jack-heavy (even if the options there are few) long before I'll start using MoW with any regularity, when it comes to adapting to anti light infantry becoming more prevalent. As so eloquently explained by quindraco, MoW didn't suddenly become better than they were just now. I had some hope for the Mechanik UA, but practical experience so far doesn't lead me to believe he makes a big difference in how viable MoW are (or aren't, as the case may be). Besides, whatever shift there is it's not just about the light infantry shredding, it's also about more - and more effective - large to colossal/gargantuan models. MoW aren't the answer to that either, in my experience.


Never went away, as far as I'm concerned.

I do love boomie. People really have to realise that a good scenario piece is worth its weight in gold.

[Kurb]

Whenever people say "X is harder to use than Y" I read it as "I don't use Y because X requires less thought"

[scout's honor]

People really have to realise that a good scenario piece is worth its weight in gold.

Other than with the Old Witch and sometimes (but usually not) an Irusk, I rarely see Khador players make a concerted effort to work towards the scenario. It's probably a meta thing, but still. I agree some good scenario models are still very valuable even if you're not playing towards a scenario win just to deny the opponent that possibility, but for the cost (especially if Valachev should probably be included as well) it's hard to justify bringing Boomie just for that.

[Tico Love]

Whenever people say "X is harder to use than Y" I read it as "I don't use Y because X requires less thought"

I think you wrote that backwards. But I know where you are coming from. This game gives players a very diverse list of options in the pieces that they can play with. It allows us the ability to challenge ourselves by using models that are require varying levels of strategy to be effective. I think it's one of the things that makes the game great.

[scout's honor]

It allows us the ability to challenge ourselves by using models that are require varying levels of strategy to be effective.

That sounds very noble, but if I can be crude for a moment: in practice a lot of what might be construed as requiring a higher level of strategy comes down to requiring better dice rolls - in other words, better luck. Sure, a more effective strategy will make models work better - it still won't make the models themselves better. And considering this is a game of human opponents, it's not like you have the option to select the difficulty you want to play against.

[Sinsation]

lets be fair, people put Man-o-Wars, Uhlans, Nyss, Boomhowlers, Doomreavers and widowmakers somewhere between all of that. Mercs are awesome. Boomie in Khador might just be making a comeback though. I would love that

I would, and while I missed nyss in my typing, I should have wrote it as:
WGI/Kayazy/IFP/Nyss -> Quit playing Khador altogether and go to Hordes or other factions -> Kossites/AK/MoW
Doomreavers/widowmakers aren't in there since those usually get classed as specialist units, rather than the infantry body of your army.
I don't agree with it. That's just what seems to get pushed as the viable way to play Khador.

[OrsusSmash]

This

Dead Eyed Gun Mages have been doing this forever. I am not really concerned about Cygnar killing Kayazy and Nyss dead, they already did.

Fully agreed. Some factions are just great at infantry lawnmowing, and Cygnar is up there. Circle is another one that tends to eat infantry by the handful (the "Hordes Cygnar", kinda, so it makes sense.)

Having played against both for years, I agree: this isn't a new problem for us. If you make your armies just a little bit more dense (take one more heavy than usual,) you'll usually do alright. Considering that an extra heavy will be useful in dealing with potential colossals/gargantuans, it's not a bad investment in general.

[Kurb]

I think you wrote that backwards. But I know where you are coming from. This game gives players a very diverse list of options in the pieces that they can play with. It allows us the ability to challenge ourselves by using models that are require varying levels of strategy to be effective. I think it's one of the things that makes the game great.

Forgive me, I have a 5 month old, he is an excuse for these things

[philipcryx]

meh Khador will still kick *** in low point games, in my opinion, I dont see a collosal being all that dangerous at 35 points if I decided to bring in i dont know 19 points in other stuff..Harvich and a bunch of range stuff...

[MediumYellow]

We will just have to go with a more combined arms approach and... wait I already do.

If you want to avoid getting killed by just lighting mix your defense types up. Sadly we don't have a really good unit that occupies our heavy infantry defense type slot, but Democorps can still be included as a second wave unit.

So I could run esorcha with WGDS, Demo Corps, Uhlans (min), Markhov, a spriggan, and BD IFP. I don't see that list being annhilated by lighting if I play it right.

[OMM_Lukav]

I see the current state of the game much like my early experience with WarmaHordes when I played Karchev exclusively. Karchev was an easy button choice for caster in MK I (and still for the most part in MK II), and had so many advantages over most lists that I could bully my way through a game making huge mistakes with little consequence. I didn't learn fitness or play much in the way of tactics well, but against new and semi seasoned players I could get away with it. Then i started playing against very skilled opponents and my Karchev lists started getting shut down because I didn't learn any tactics that didn't involve towing my jacks and hurtling them at my opponents.

This is much like the case we were just in with our list building. What units should I take...well Kayzay, Nyss, and IF Winterguard of course. People took these units because they worked with little effort in figuring them out how to be used best. Now we have new weapons and old tactics being thrown at us again that counter our high def crutch. It is time we start learning that our other tools in our list can be effective.

I watch Vassal much like people watch football. I have seen many a MoW lists eat up their opponent. Hell I saw MoW Bombardiers wreck major face in a handful of games. Yes they are slow, yes i would love to see their speed boosted...but they are far from broken.

It is seriously sad those people think that Khador players will rush to Hordes because they think they are broken. WarmaHordes is one of the best balanced games I have ever seen. Khador is not broken, but it does require different tactics. The community would do Khador a great favor in working on developing said new/different tactics.

[OrsusSmash]

I see the current state of the game much like my early experience with WarmaHordes when I played Karchev exclusively. Karchev was an easy button choice for caster in MK I (and still for the most part in MK II), and had so many advantages over most lists that I could bully my way through a game making huge mistakes with little consequence. I didn't learn fitness or play much in the way of tactics well, but against new and semi seasoned players I could get away with it. Then i started playing against very skilled opponents and my Karchev lists started getting shut down because I didn't learn any tactics that didn't involve towing my jacks and hurtling them at my opponents.

This is much like the case we were just in with our list building. What units should I take...well Kayzay, Nyss, and IF Winterguard of course. People took these units because they worked with little effort in figuring them out how to be used best. Now we have new weapons and old tactics being thrown at us again that counter our high def crutch. It is time we start learning that our other tools in our list can be effective.

I watch Vassal much like people watch football. I have seen many a MoW lists eat up their opponent. Hell I saw MoW Bombardiers wreck major face in a handful of games. Yes they are slow, yes i would love to see their speed boosted...but they are far from broken.

It is seriously sad those people think that Khador players will rush to Hordes because they think they are broken. WarmaHordes is one of the best balanced games I have ever seen. Khador is not broken, but it does require different tactics. The community would do Khador a great favor in working on developing said new/different tactics.

Very well said.

Another thing players should bear in mind moving forward: new releases always shake stuff up, and we have another wave of releases coming not too far off. Much like how the Stormwall has breathed new life into Cygnar, there's every possibility that a release in the next cycle will jump start our less used options and give us lots of interesting new options.

I don't think we need something like that as a faction to stay relevant/effective, but I certainly won't mind if it happens.

[Sinsation]

I see the current state of the game much like my early experience with WarmaHordes when I played Karchev exclusively. Karchev was an easy button choice for caster in MK I (and still for the most part in MK II), and had so many advantages over most lists that I could bully my way through a game making huge mistakes with little consequence. I didn't learn fitness or play much in the way of tactics well, but against new and semi seasoned players I could get away with it. Then i started playing against very skilled opponents and my Karchev lists started getting shut down because I didn't learn any tactics that didn't involve towing my jacks and hurtling them at my opponents.

This is much like the case we were just in with our list building. What units should I take...well Kayzay, Nyss, and IF Winterguard of course. People took these units because they worked with little effort in figuring them out how to be used best. Now we have new weapons and old tactics being thrown at us again that counter our high def crutch. It is time we start learning that our other tools in our list can be effective.

I watch Vassal much like people watch football. I have seen many a MoW lists eat up their opponent. Hell I saw MoW Bombardiers wreck major face in a handful of games. Yes they are slow, yes i would love to see their speed boosted...but they are far from broken.

It is seriously sad those people think that Khador players will rush to Hordes because they think they are broken. WarmaHordes is one of the best balanced games I have ever seen. Khador is not broken, but it does require different tactics. The community would do Khador a great favor in working on developing said new/different tactics.

Well said! Only two things to add:
1) Vassal is like football, but with a nice text record, and where it doesn't require constant attention. Pop open a few vassal windows while you're working, check back every now and then, and enjoy I've heard you can set the games to record, so that you could see all the individual movements if you want, but I haven't tried that yet.
2) I fall more in the new tactics camp, rather than just trying to adapt old tactics to new models, or make a subtle shift. Start from scratch and such. The shift between our light infantry and one jack to heavy infantry and/or multiple jacks can almost be like starting a new army.

[Esper]

Another thing players should bear in mind moving forward: new releases always shake stuff up, and we have another wave of releases coming not too far off.

Actually, I disagree with this. New releases tend to provide different options, but they don't "shake stuff up." If they did, they'd most likely be overpowered releases that change the balance of the game. Battle engines and colossals do neither, nor does anything in Wrath or Domination.

[Khador247]

This is stating the obvious but I think that the new meta is going to revolve heavily around dealing with more warjacks and warbeasts. Colossals/Gargantuans have good ARM and a lot of hit boxes. To deal with those threats I think you're going to see people taking more jacks/beasts of their own whether they be Colossals/Gargantuans or just regular jacks/beasts. Weaponmasters will gain value not that they weren't valuable already. Fortunately we have jacks that hit hard and we have infantry and solos that hit hard. Light ARM single wound infantry like WGI, Kayazy and Nyss are still attractive choices but I think they're usefulness will be diminished. DEF has been king for a long time. ARM is quickly gaining ground.

[Digilante]

Well this turned into another one of "those" threads, but back on the topic of the battle report...

That trick with arcing Nemo3's gun off a lightning pod is pretty nasty, I'll have to keep an eye out for that once I start seeing more Stormwalls around.

I've played against lists similar to this (Nemo3 is pretty popular at my FLGS) and I think the key weakness of this list is that it relies on chain lightning and electroleaps to deal with infantry. Otherwise it has a low model count and will struggle to bring enough attacks to the table. Take out the thunderhead first, then any arcnodes and suddenly he'll have a great deal of trouble taking out infantry with iron flesh without exposing the old man. Finch is also an important piece of this list and is very squishy so if he lets you get her go for it (a boosted WGI rocket will do the trick).

[PG_LunarSol]

Boomie in Khador might just be making a comeback though. I would love that

I don't have the models yet, but I'm seriously considering Boomie screening for Conquest with pVlad. I'm not even sure I'd necessarily care whether or not Valachev was included, though he would certainly help.