What can?t the Retribution of Scyrah have?

[rwould]

Bearing in mind our alloyed steel is almost the equal of Rhul's there is no reason we should not get high Arm stuff

[Darque]

Well according to my son the answer is "Anything with Tough."

[joelker41]

You *have* a strength buff, the Arcanist has one (so it can even go in any list!).

*facepalm*

Honestly if you're going to comment on another faction's strengths at least know the abilities.

I don't get why people say Ret players complain. I fully enjoy playing Ret the most out of the 6 factions I have played. They are unique and still have a lot of room for improvement and their best is just now getting discovered.

It ain't Cryx. We actual get to play a creative faction with real thought and strategy. Perish the thought!

[quindraco]

*facepalm*

Honestly if you're going to comment on another faction's strengths at least know the abilities.

I don't get why people say Ret players complain. I fully enjoy playing Ret the most out of the 6 factions I have played. They are unique and still have a lot of room for improvement and their best is just now getting discovered.

It ain't Cryx. We actual get to play a creative faction with real thought and strategy. Perish the thought!

"Concentrated Power" on the arcanist improves melee damage; the only difference between that and a strength buff is throws, and it seemed clear from context the poster I was replying to wanted more melee damage, since he was saying he wanted Fury.

[PG_SMDVogrin]

Worst *Reach* Weaponmaster, because they can lose Vengance if the UA officer dies, unlike I guess Bane Knights, their only competition in that category. Sentinels are better than Bane Knights too, especially if you're not counting Tartarus.

Rereading that post, it does have a slight odor of traffic and water to it.

*Ahem*

Doom Reavers.

You're not in last place.

[joelker41]

"Concentrated Power" on the arcanist improves melee damage; the only difference between that and a strength buff is throws, and it seemed clear from context the poster I was replying to wanted more melee damage, since he was saying he wanted Fury.

LOL that is a gross and inaccurate oversimplification.

[FranzGrenstein]

An entire week without being complained about.

I am not complaining, I reread the OP, not seeing a complaint.

What I am asking for is clarification. I am asking points in the negative to further define the positive.

Why don’t you and others use this as an opportunity to discuss what you think would be truly broken synergies with Ret.

[Maou_Mint]

I don't think getting eyeless sight for Ret is all that unlikely. It's on the bond effects chart for league play after all. :-)

[jandrese]

*Ahem*

Doom Reavers.

You're not in last place.

Doom Reavers have Vengance now? Why don't I see these guys more often? That's terrifying.

[PG_thegreatblah]

I don't think Ret will ever get, a ham sandwich?

[FranzGrenstein]

I hardly consider what is clearly a multi-faction/player game to really factor into faction balance in a 1 on 1 setting.

I disagree, in the case I was talking about. Very little was done to the jack except for the parasite, and a full unit of MHSF dropped it from full to dead in one activation of the MHSF. We are talking about that solid menoth jack grid. The only differance was parasite, no other actions where done to it by the cryx player.

[Demeritus]

I disagree, in the case I was talking about. Very little was done to the jack except for the parasite, and a full unit of MHSF dropped it from full to dead in one activation of the MHSF. We are talking about that solid menoth jack grid. The only differance was parasite, no other actions where done to it by the cryx player.

It does make a significant difference though when you make the MHSF effectively a pow 13 they go from doing 1-2 points on average to doing 4-5 points on average against a Protectorate warjack.

[FranzGrenstein]

It does make a significant difference though when you make the MHSF effectively a pow 13 they go from doing 1-2 points on average to doing 4-5 points on average against a Protectorate warjack.

Yes, Joe in my understanding, is saying that since it was a cross faction 2v2 match I should discount my observations of using MHSF inconjuction with parasite. (Appologies to Joe if I have that wrong, that is the way I read it.)

I am just further reinforcing my point that Ret will never get an armor debuff like parasite.

[Murkhadh]

Yes, Joe in my understanding, is saying that since it was a cross faction 2v2 match I should discount my observations of using MHSF inconjuction with parasite. (Appologies to Joe if I have that wrong, that is the way I read it.)

I am just further reinforcing my point that Ret will never get an armor debuff like parasite.

you can do the same thing in faction with Aiyana's damage buff unless its the avatar. or the choir are still alive.

[Mastershake]

Ret could get deadeye, but never with Snipe (no pCaine, Ravyn is the closest).

Ret could get STR buffs/Debuffs easily enough (Skorne and Khador have no problems putting out damage, but still get Fury)

Even a fire beacon as long as it's not an entire unit with the ability (A Stormfall UA who him/herself had one would make sense and with FA:1, seems perfectly fine)

Really I think much of "Ret can't get X" is people spassing out, and as much fun as it is to watch people cry about my faction, it doesn't go anywhere or mean anything.

[Antigonus]

If you're the least supported faction (no, minions you're not least supported, PP made that evident when they stated you're getting 2 warlocks next book) then you get the right to complain. Deal.

*facepalm*

You do remember that Minions are two semi-factions in one, so giving one pact a 'lock instead of the other would not make any sense whatsoever.

And remind me how much Ret got in Wrath, compared to either Blindwater or Thornfall in Domination? Oh yes, 10 for Ret, 4 each for the Minion semi-factions.

Least supported my ***.

Decent looking models?

*ding* *ding* *ding*

We have a winner!

[NEoJoe]

*ding* *ding* *ding*

We have a winner!

*Looks at my stuff*

Aw man. I didn't know my cool looking Ret models were actually ugly. I wish someone would have told me. Now I'm sad.

And minions isn't two subfactions. Minions is a faction.

[Antigonus]

And minions isn't two subfactions. Minions is a faction.

For a given value of faction, I'd agree with you - they share a slot in the release window & books, for instance.

But when there is only one model overlap between the two main halves (excluding models such as Brun & Lug, who are Minions that don't work for a pact), it makes more sense to view them as semi-factions rather than factions. Contrast this with Mercs, where with a few exceptions the vast majority of the models will work for at least two contracts

[joelker41]

*facepalm*

You do remember that Minions are two semi-factions in one, so giving one pact a 'lock instead of the other would not make any sense whatsoever.

And remind me how much Ret got in Wrath, compared to either Blindwater or Thornfall in Domination? Oh yes, 10 for Ret, 4 each for the Minion semi-factions.

Least supported my ***.



*ding* *ding* *ding*

We have a winner!

Might want to put down the haterade there...

Minions got plenty in Domination as well.

Ret models are actually cool looking, it's the studio color scheme that is so bad.

[Driver]

I did not think Minions is a faction, the same way Mercs are not a faction? They are just a side project, a hip way to be cool.

Comparing Apples and Oranges IMO.

[Murkhadh]

Mercs and Minion aren't real factions, lets not sugar coat this anymore, they don't get the same attention as the rest and using them in comparisons sake is just dumb. They will NEVER be the same as other factions either. The fact that you can take them with other factions is the reason why.

This is proven by releases, they are getting a colossal but they didn't get a battle engine. They just aren't treated the same, never will be and shouldn't be. They aren't the same.

[joelker41]

Mercs and Minion aren't real factions, lets not sugar coat this anymore, they don't get the same attention as the rest and using them in comparisons sake is just dumb. They will NEVER be the same as other factions either. The fact that you can take them with other factions is the reason why.

This is proven by releases, they are getting a colossal but they didn't get a battle engine. They just aren't treated the same, never will be and shouldn't be. They aren't the same.

I strongly disagree with this for Mercs sake. 4 different contracts, more casters available to them than any other faction, very interesting theme forces, overall they can be just as if not more effective than 'real' factions oftentimes.

Minions is a different topic altogether that I won't touch LOL.

[Murkhadh]

I strongly disagree with this for Mercs sake. 4 different contracts, more casters available to them than any other faction, very interesting theme forces, overall they can be just as if not more effective than 'real' factions oftentimes.

Minions is a different topic altogether that I won't touch LOL.

Why don't they get the same treatment as the rest then, where is their battle engine?

[joelker41]

Why don't they get the same treatment as the rest then, where is their battle engine?

Ret and Skorne don't really have battle engines LOL.

Mercs got an AMAZING colossal. That thing is a game/Meta changer.

[Murkhadh]

Ret and Skorne don't really have battle engines LOL.

Mercs got an AMAZING colossal. That thing is a game/Meta changer.

the ret engine is significantly better than the skorne and troll engine. Even though I don't use it.

Yes they got a fantastic colossal, but the point remains, they do not get the same treatment as the real factions.

[Tiran]

Why don't they get the same treatment as the rest then, where is their battle engine?

Coming, according to Lock and Load, just not in Colossals or Wrath.

[kolonelk]

I am not complaining, I reread the OP, not seeing a complaint.

What I am asking for is clarification. I am asking points in the negative to further define the positive.

Why don?t you and others use this as an opportunity to discuss what you think would be truly broken synergies with Ret.

The comment wasn't pointed specifically at your post, but more the complaining that inevitably crops up any time Ret is mentioned. I don't understand the need some people have for all factions to have access to everything. Faction flavour in-game is defined by what they do and don't have in terms of troop types, common buffs or abilities, and ways to deal with problems (high Def, etc). No faction has a generic answer to absolutely everything, and giving everything exactly the same types of units is dumb, at that point you might as well be playing chess (though there'd still be cries of the Queen being OP).

[x3tsniper]

Minions seems much more separated with what they can take. For instance, I want to play Blindwater at some point, but they have 2 units? Gatormen and Bog Trogs. That isn't enough variety for me to start playing. Maybe when minions/mercs gets enough of a following, they will introduce models that will only work for them, or just be much more restricted in who else they work for.

[a spastic ninja]

The only thing I would say I even want in Ret that I don't have is Pathfinder kayazy/sister type unit, which apparently we're getting with 3iryss. Things we're definitely not getting? Maybe MAT buffs for infantry (because of MHA), and an Apotheosis-level character myrmidon. But who knows, Vyre came out of nowhere (from what I've heard; started in September) so we shall see.

[Houston]

Things that Ret won't get:
* A 2 pt. solo that grants pathfinder to a unit. Ios is entirely mountains or forests, and why would elves ever want to move quickly through terrain that reminds them of home?
* Access to more than a dozen mercenaries or a mercenary warcaster. I'm still shocked that Madelyn works for Ret. It's funny how many more people will work for the undead of Cryx than will work for the elves.
* A top level feat like Denny or Haley. Apparently being able to field the MHSF and having a top tier feat would be like crossing the streams on Ghostbusters.
* MAT, RAT or STR buffs that work on warrior models at any time outside of a feat turn.
* A decent tier 4 list for a war caster.
* Medium based infantry unit.
* The ability to stop our best partisans from whoring themselves out to the other factions. I'm looking at you Sylys & Eiryss. or a way to give any elf mercs the partisan rule: Dahlia, Aiyana, Lanyssa, Cylena what did the Retribution do to you ladies to make you dislike us so?
* Anyone with immunity to fire, electricity, or corrosion.
* A good use for Nayl.

[wargrim]

Why don't they get the same treatment as the rest then, where is their battle engine?

Where are Khadors light jacks? Where is Rets character unit? Where is Cygnars medium based infantry? Looks like they aren't real factions, otherwise they had the same treatment.

[Antigonus]

I strongly disagree with this for Mercs sake. 4 different contracts, more casters available to them than any other faction, very interesting theme forces, overall they can be just as if not more effective than 'real' factions oftentimes.

Minions is a different topic altogether that I won't touch LOL.

I was bored, so I went to the Gallery and counted Merc warcasters (including Constance) versus Menoth's warcasters. The scoreline?

Mercs 11 v Menoth 13 (as of the end of Wrath - both gain an additional 'caster in COLOSSALS, but neither have them previewed yet)

However, that ignores the fact that even after COLOSSALS, Mercs will still only have one Epic Warcaster (Magnus the Warlord), while Menoth has 4 Epic Warcasters (Kreoss, Feora, Testament, Severius) and will have their first Legendairy Warcaster in Kreoss the Cavalryman.

* Access to more than a dozen mercenaries or a mercenary warcaster. I'm still shocked that Madelyn works for Ret. It's funny how many more people will work for the undead of Cryx than will work for the elves.
* The ability to stop our best partisans from whoring themselves out to the other factions. I'm looking at you Sylys & Eiryss. or a way to give any elf mercs the partisan rule: Dahlia, Aiyana, Lanyssa, Cylena what did the Retribution do to you ladies to make you dislike us so?

Re point 1 - I think that's more to do with the xenophobia of the Iosans than the Mercs themselves. I imagine the Steelheads, for instance, would be happy to engage in a contract with the Elves, if only the Elves wanted 'em to.

Re point 2: Eyriss was a Merc long before she was a partisan - not sure what Sylas' excuse is. As for the other non-partisans you mention - as far as I recall, the Nyss and Iosans didn't really get on, which would explain Lanyssa and Cylena. I suspect her association with Master Holt might be the reason for Aiyana - I can't see a reason why Snakewoman couldn't be a partisan, unless the snake ate someone important at one time.

[NEoJoe]

Why is anyone saying Mercs and Minions aren't factions? They are, but I think the definition of Faction needs to be made clear. I'm not getting my book out, I'm just gonna take a blind stab at this.

A "Faction" in this game is what you put on your sheet at a tournament. Since Mercenaries and Minions are things you would put on your sheet, they are factions. If I go to a tournament and say I'm playing Mercenaries, I'm not breaking any rules. Furthermore, if I control a Mercenary or Minion model that has an ability that references other Faction models, the game is specifically looking for other Mercenary/Minion models, respectively. This is proof that they are each factions, as defined by the rules of the game.

Faction has nothing to do with power level, model access, how many models you get per expansion, or how many contracts/pacts you have. Mercenaries is a faction, and so is Minions.

Mercenaries and Minions definitely function differently than the other Factions in some ways though, this is obvious. Still Factions, because Wrong Eye casting Spiney Growth on Galleon isn't affected by how many battle engines Galleon gained access to this year vs other factions.

Oh, and they aren't some silly amount of weirdo factions. They're each one faction. If I elect to play Minions at a tournament, I am, between all of my lists, capable of taking all of the models defined as usable by all of the minion pacts. The only funky things are 1) What combinations I'm allowed to play them in and 2) that I can't use some models that are Minions because they don't get along with the current pacts. Mercenaries only has the second problem in a very small degree that most people don't care about (Cephalyx and Dahlia). But that doesn't really matter. If you play Minions or Mercenaries, you are allowed to use, among your lists, any combination of ALL Mercenary and Minion warcasters and warlocks. When Minions gets two warlocks this year, it's getting two warlocks that minions can take to tournaments this year. Bah.

Anyway, Retribution can get basically any mechanic in the game, as long as it combined with fair functions (aforementioned pCaine) and probably stays in our themes, or the mild other themes we may be able to branch out in on a 'caster to 'caster basis (like how Cryx just got a huge infantry buffing 'caster, which is cool, but not as common for them as a blaster meltyerface guy).

[PG_Stevo]

If anything is truly out, I'm guessing it's warjacks at ARM north of 20. Shield and Buckler advantages seem unlikely, and durable multi-wound medium bases are probably a pipe dream.

Well, the Griffon has a shield, so it's not like they won't use them.

*Looks at my stuff*

And minions isn't two subfactions. Minions is a faction.

It always surprises me how often Retribution Players compare the Retribution of Scyrah to Minions.

If Garryth, Kaelyssa, and Ravyn were the "Retribution Pact" and Ossyan, Vyros, and Rahn were the "Dawnguard Pact" then you'd have a valid comparison. As it stands, Minions is half a faction when compared to other factions. It is a faction on its own, but in any given game, a Minions list has access to about half its options versus a Retribution list that has access to *all* its options.

[Lord Sessadore]

It always surprises me how often Retribution Players compare the Retribution of Scyrah to Minions.

If Garryth, Kaelyssa, and Ravyn were the "Retribution Pact" and Ossyan, Vyros, and Rahn were the "Dawnguard Pact" then you'd have a valid comparison. As it stands, Minions is half a faction when compared to other factions. It is a faction on its own, but in any given game, a Minions list has access to about half its options versus a Retribution list that has access to *all* its options.

I think the reason that comparison has been coming up lately is that once Minions has their two new warlocks from Gargantuans, the Minions faction will have 8 casters to Retribution's 7, despite Ret being a playable faction for a couple years longer. Having only half the options in a given game is a fair point, but I don't think many people would disagree with the statement that casters/locks are the largest factor contributing to faction diversity.

[PG_Stevo]

I think the reason that comparison has been coming up lately is that once Minions has their two new warlocks from Gargantuans, the Minions faction will have 8 casters to Retribution's 7, despite Ret being a playable faction for a couple years longer. Having only half the options in a given game is a fair point, but I don't think many people would disagree with the statement that casters/locks are the largest factor contributing to faction diversity.

Retribution has only been playable about a year longer. That comparison is fundamentally flawed.

An appropriate comparison would be to say that when Gargantuans releases Minions will have two pacts with 4 Warlocks each, which is slightly more than half the number of Warcasters that Retribution has.

Think about it. Lord Carver never gets to use his feat with Gatormen or Wrastlers or Swamp Horrors. Maelok never gets to cast his cool undead spell on Slaughterhousers and then use his feat on them.

Until Retribution models start having the same issues, there really isn't a valid comparison between Retribution's releases and Minions' releases.

[Antigonus]

It always surprises me how often Retribution Players compare the Retribution of Scyrah to Minions.

Indeed - and what did the Minion players do to deserve that?

[Rogue Sun]

*facepalm*

You do remember that Minions are two semi-factions in one, so giving one pact a 'lock instead of the other would not make any sense whatsoever.

And remind me how much Ret got in Wrath, compared to either Blindwater or Thornfall in Domination? Oh yes, 10 for Ret, 4 each for the Minion semi-factions.

Least supported my ***.

NO. NO. NO.

Don't even try that crap with me. IF you can take Minions to a tournament and play both a pig list and a gator list then they are considered ONE faction. Not two. ONE.

Come the day when you Minion players are forced to declare playing Farrow or Blindwater, then you argument will have the slightest kernel of truth to it. Until then, I think not.

[NEoJoe]

Retribution has only been playable about a year longer. That comparison is fundamentally flawed.

An appropriate comparison would be to say that when Gargantuans releases Minions will have two pacts with 4 Warlocks each, which is slightly more than half the number of Warcasters that Retribution has.

Think about it. Lord Carver never gets to use his feat with Gatormen or Wrastlers or Swamp Horrors. Maelok never gets to cast his cool undead spell on Slaughterhousers and then use his feat on them.

Until Retribution models start having the same issues, there really isn't a valid comparison between Retribution's releases and Minions' releases.

A year is a year.

The comparison you make is not any more appropriate than the comparison I made. You want to say they have two sets of four, I want to say they have eight. We're both sort of right. Cool thing is, when they pick lists, they have eight 'locks to choose from. So I'm more right at what matters.

Lord Carver couldn't feat the stuff you said anyway. He specifies Farrow models. That's kind of like stuff being bad interactions. When Haley uses Blitz, the the Squire doesn't get a bonus attack. Strawman arguments aside, you have a point. They still have more warlocks, which is the biggest thing. It's fine to pretend that eButcher is more blessed because he's allowed to field a whole army of Steelheads and WG rifle corp and Rorch and 'jack marshaled freebooters, but he's not really. Arkadius would maybe like to use Gatorman Posse to hold people back, but he can't, and it isn't that big of a deal because he's designed around the fact.

Look, that's the whole point. Minions is a faction, it's designed to be the way it is, PP thinks it's fine and they know what they're doing, and they've plenty of options and it only looks like they're getting more because their releases have been good.

The only comparison I'm going to make between Ret and Minions is that they're both Factions in the Warmachine/Hordes gaming system, and that's a right fine comparison there.

[PG_Stevo]

A year is a year.

The comparison you make is not any more appropriate than the comparison I made. You want to say they have two sets of four, I want to say they have eight. We're both sort of right. Cool thing is, when they pick lists, they have eight 'locks to choose from. So I'm more right at what matters.

Lord Carver couldn't feat the stuff you said anyway. He specifies Farrow models. That's kind of like stuff being bad interactions. When Haley uses Blitz, the the Squire doesn't get a bonus attack. Strawman arguments aside, you have a point. They still have more warlocks, which is the biggest thing. It's fine to pretend that eButcher is more blessed because he's allowed to field a whole army of Steelheads and WG rifle corp and Rorch and 'jack marshaled freebooters, but he's not really. Arkadius would maybe like to use Gatorman Posse to hold people back, but he can't, and it isn't that big of a deal because he's designed around the fact.

Look, that's the whole point. Minions is a faction, it's designed to be the way it is, PP thinks it's fine and they know what they're doing, and they've plenty of options and it only looks like they're getting more because their releases have been good.

The only comparison I'm going to make between Ret and Minions is that they're both Factions in the Warmachine/Hordes gaming system, and that's a right fine comparison there.

Not quite. It's true that Carver specifies Farrow models, but my point is that he can't take Gatormen at all, even though they are from the *SAME* faction. Your Blitz/Squire comparison is the straw man here.

Minions have 4 Warlocks for two Pacts and the supporting warbeasts, solos, and units *CANNOT* be shared between those Pacts. That's significantly different from the Retribution's options. It's nothing like Mercenaries where you have overlap between Contracts.