Worst Skorne Warlocks?

[Sinjin]

I'm fairly new to WarmaHordes, and I often enjoy the challange of running bad models when I start a new system.

So which three Warlocks are generally considered to be the worst? (looking for three so I can pick some different play styles)

[PowerToast]

Yowza. Anything I say is going to incite an angry response from someone.

eMorghoul is generally considered pretty bad, but I believe someone just won a major tournament with him.

Mordikaar was considered terrible near the beginning of MkII, the current edition, but once people figured out how to play him, the consensus shifted to 'He's Awesome!'.

I don't think there has ever really been a third 'everyone thinks this model sucks' warlock.

I think we in Skorne have a few warlocks that are harder to play than others. Coincidentaly, I think eMorghoul and Mordikaar are both fairly hard to play, especially at low point values.

My recomendation? Put aside your masochism for now and pick up the battle box. While we don't have many (any?) bad warlocks, we do have warlocks that don't play well at low points values, to the point where it's just not fun. Mordikaar is an example of this, so is Zaal. They both need lots of infantry and a minimum of beasts to feed them fury. Thus, they function best at 50 points or so.

If you have some games under your belt and you're up to, say, 35 point matches, Mordikaar and Zaal become difficult to play, but still fun. You just have to really squeeze what you need into your list, which is a fun challenge in itself.

As your play progresses and your collection grows, you will find that you can provide yourself a challenge from time to time just by shaking up your selection of models. If you've been playing a lot of melee warlocks, bring out Rasheth, for example. If your lists have had lots of venetors lately, put them away and bring no guns or spells at all! Don't focus on 'good' or 'bad' models, because it's very hard to find models that are 'good' or 'bad' in this system. Instead, focus on interesting play that challenges both you and your opponent.

[jettzypher]

i think most people (especially those from the outside looking in) will say e.morghoul is bad. the people in my area that i play with typically can agree that most of the casters are good, with a few that are great. the important part is taking the right tools that go with them.

[Triumph Of Man]

Rasheth was also hated for quite a while, then people figured out he was really good.

[kantoboy]

Rasheth was also hated for quite a while, then people figured out he was really good.

I think he was hated not because Rasheth was considered weak. Most were just expecting a beast caster. eMorghoul is considered a weak caster. He brings very little buffs or synergy to typical skorne beasts / units.

[Talamare]

Emorghoul is bad

but he just dominated a major tournament...

So I would say then he is just hard to use

If you have to pick the 3 hardest to use Warlocks, then its probably Emorg, Rasheth and Mordikaar

[Delrogue]

If you have just started the game, then they are all going to be bad locks for you.

[NavyGodzilla]

I've been having a lot of success with eMorghoul since I started using him, but I do agree that it takes more effort to use him. The only time I've had much problem with our warlocks is at 15pt games. Xerxis at 15 has netted me quite a few loses against Circle. I would go with our casters just suffer at lower pt games than that any suck.

[David_Mac]

Mate you're really jumping in the deep end. Wish you the best of luck on your journey!

From my experience as a new player pMorghoul out of the battle-box was tough enough. Low Fury and terrible ARM. Control area is highly limiting, yet he runs well with beasts, so you've always got to keep him sneaking around just behind the action. On top of getting my head around the rules, that fact that pMorg was going to make me immediately pay for each positioning mistake lit up my new player experience with adrenaline, groans and expletives.

[PG_carnage4u]

If your going into the game, just pick 1-2 warlocks that look like fun to you. Every skorne warlock can be played well if you understand them and focus enough to make good lists with them.

I would not recommend E makeda to new players. She is considered an easy button by many, and I think she creates bad habbits for new playesr to the faction.

[Rynth]

Skorne's warlocks are all good. Most of their deficiencies are covered by army build so when I name these as "worst" think of it more as "least awesome," because I know I do.

Morghoul2- He is a super solo leading a synergy faction. He barely helps his army and he needs a lot from them(ranged DEF, knock down protection, screening, etc). His feat is weak. Archidons give him a good tool to that lets him work well with his army and gives him the ability to contribute to combat without committing. Very boring, very repetitive; but he will kill things dead.

Naaresh- Like Morghoul2 he is a bit super soloy, but he interacts more with his army. His feat is great and Iron Flesh is always solid. However, he lacks a late game. His personal killing ability is low. Painmonger can help, but makes him fragile since a few high damage rolls might damage him quicker than he can heal himself turn to turn. I've lost several games where Naaresh ends up within charge range of the opposing caster but had so few health he couldn't cut for much fury and/or get blood tokens to be an actual threat. A lot of his stuff, including his feat, involves healing and there are more ways to prevent healing than I care to think about.

Mordikaar- Like Naaresh he lacks a late game. He is upkeep dependent in a world where upkeep hat is fairly rampant. He likes taking a fair amount of infantry in a faction that loves its beasts.

[dboeren]

If you have just started the game, then they are all going to be bad locks for you.

+1. You're going to suck with everyone until your skills improve.

If I had to identify anyone as below average, it would probably be EMorghoul, but with a couple of caveats...

1. He's actually quite good in very small games (the size you'll be playing no doubt) so using him at those sizes will do you no good in accomplishing your goal

2. He got a nice bump up when the Archidon came out

Also, (and listen up because this part is important) it's very difficult to say that a model is good or bad in this game because you never use them alone. It's a lot more meaningful to talk about good or bad combinations because synergy is a major factor in Warmachine/Hordes. Some casters are good in smaller games, others in larger games. Most of them tend to like certain models in their army or certain TYPES of models. For instance, Mordikaar wants living troops because he collects their souls. Makeda wants some troops, but isn't so picky about what kind. Xerxis specifically wants some troops with medium bases to block LOS to him. Morghoul primarily wants melee beasts, and may run few or no troops at all besides some Paingivers. eMorghoul likes small games because the board is more open and he thrives on mobility. Some casters can run well with a variety of lists like Hexeris or Makeda. Some want one specific thing and may be fairly open outside of that. Morghoul in either form appreciates a Brute. Rasheth really likes having a Void Spirit (so does Mordikaar). You can go on all day with this.

So, what do you really want? Do you want to pick a "bad" caster, or do you want a bad list? If you take a "bad" caster and build a good list for them, are you defeating your point? Is it any different than picking a "good" caster and giving them a sub-par list? I'll tell you it's a lot easier to build a really dumb list if you just want to handicap yourself. Hey, literally ANYBODY and no beasts - go!

Figure out what your goal really is and you'll be much more likely to achieve it.

[Vinsklortho]

With a meta possibly shifting towards colossals/gargantuans shouldn't eMorghoul be getting a bump indirectly? Blind is absolutely amazing as anyone who has ever played with/against Gorman can attest to.

[Hasten]

With a meta possibly shifting towards colossals/gargantuans shouldn't eMorghoul be getting a bump indirectly? Blind is absolutely amazing as anyone who has ever played with/against Gorman can attest to.

I've wondered this too. Particularly if the meta shifts more towards not just gargossals, but multiple heavy warbeasts/warjacks to compensate for the anti-infantry that gargossals brings and the armor-cracking necessary to eliminate them. So Morghoul2's ability to mess up high-points-concentration models, either via blind or just stabbiness, may become more valuable.

As far as the OP's main question, I think Morghoul1 (the battlebox caster) may be a good fit for you. Not that he's bad at all, but he's sort of a "finesse" caster. He tends to punish your mistakes and reward you for figuring out how he works and playing well. Additionally, since he emphasizes our heavy melee warbeasts (one of the highlights of our faction), you'll end up learning their ins and outs, and they will generally transfer fairly well to another warlock when you decide to make the switch.

But yes, if I were to pick our "bad" warlocks, the bottom two would probably be Morghoul2 and Mordikaar, though you'll get different answers depending on who you ask. I'd say that Hexeris1, despite being my favorite warlock to play, can be pretty hit-and-miss depending on the matchup. If your opponent doesn't bring the right sort of infantry, you end up playing virtually without a feat, which can be painful. He might be another one to look at as he's a fairly well-rounded warlock (besides his feat) with a number of interesting tools, and thus he almost always has something important to be doing. Generally you're arcing spells early on, and end up transitioning to melee at some point in the mid-to-late game. In that sense he can be a good warlock to learn with because he requires you to learn how and when to expose your warlock to danger to get the most out of him.

Anyways, welcome to Skorne, we hope you enjoy your torture. I mean "stay". We hope you enjoy your "stay".

-H

[Jaradakar]

Hexeris1 to me is one of the weakest (Note: all Skorne locks are pretty good if you know how to use them) But as Hasten said, with Hexeris1 you're often playing without a feat.

Morghoul 2 is often talked about being weak, but as others have said, I think his value is going up with colossals/gargantuans (at Lock & Load, I blinded a Colossal over and over with him). Also i've heard the Archidon really helps him out.

[PG_dungeongod]

It is funny that people hate Mordikaar so much - he is one of my best warlocks, IMO. I love him and Rasheth, as well as Zaal. That said - I tend to agree that Skorne doesn't really have any horrific warlocks, unlike some other factions. We have some that are really good, and some that are just solid. I also agree with others - while I appreciate your desire for a challenge, I have shepherded a large number of players into this game now (~20 or so) and have seen players who are terrible with the game (and still are) and those who are really quick to pick it up. Even those who are quick to pick it up have a 4-6 month learning curve where EVERY warlock or warcaster they play is "challenging." This is a bit different from other wargames, and I think it is because it is a high-detail game, vs. other games that tend to be low-detail games. This means that different models behave VERY differently on the table, and that changing one or two models in a list can completely change the way that list plays (especially with different warlocks!)

For instance, I have a Hexeris2 list and a Rasheth list that look fairly similar beast-wise, with a few minor modifications, with different troops. They play completely differently, in part because of different units, but in larger part because the warlocks want to do different things. I would honestly pick up the battle box - Morghoul1 is a solid warlock, and he can really lay down some heat. The savages and the Gladiator are nasty with him, and when you move to 15 points, you add a unit of Beast Handlers and an Agonizer and you are good to go. That is a solid list that still requires a lot of finesse to follow through.

Also, it might help to understand what you mean by a "challenge" - do you mean finesse play styles (i.e. if you mess up, you are punished, but you have lots of reward from it)? Do you mean bad matchups? Do you mean finding ways to make bad models play well? I think if you mean the last, then you will probably have to wait, and get some good experience first. You could be the exception to the rule, certainly, but I have found that players who try and go right after the worst models immediately to "make them good" find that they get frustrated very quickly. This is not to say that you are a bad player - just that with so many high-detail things going on in the game, there is sometimes a steep learning curve to get the point of understanding WHAT things work well, and how you can make those things work better. Yes, dark horses can be fun, but I find them more fun after I learn a faction well enough to hold my own.

[dboeren]

True, the Colossals help him out too. Perhaps we'll see Morghoul2 get more popular in the upcoming months as the rest of them come out.

Hexeris I wouldn't say is weak, he's just a generalist and I feel like a lot of people hate generalist models. They want things that do one thing really well, so they don't have to think much to figure out what they should be doing with them. But flexible models can be awesome if you're willing to learn how they work and take on the responsibility of making good choices. Go run Farrow Brigands for a while and you'll see

Also, a lot of the casters that get ragged on are perfectly fine guys who have certain bad matchups. Mordikaar is great, unless your opponent has good upkeep removal. Hexeris's feat is fine, until you go up against the wrong guys who aren't affected by it. Stuff like that. They're good most of the time, and then occasionally you hit a situation where a tool gets taken away or nerfed and then you're relying on some out of the box thinking and good moves to make up the difference.

[PG_petegrrrr]

True, but one the "General" things he does is "Generally kick the crap out of cryx" which is always a good thing.

Clearly, I am biased towards Rasheth, but I'd also lump both hexeris 1 and 2 into the upper tier of our warlocks. Even the "bad" warlocks are not unplayable.

eMorg does not offer much support, but with the right set up he can win tournies (no free strike archidons are great). Same with Mordy.

[Hasten]

Hexeris I wouldn't say is weak, he's just a generalist and I feel like a lot of people hate generalist models. They want things that do one thing really well, so they don't have to think much to figure out what they should be doing with them. But flexible models can be awesome if you're willing to learn how they work and take on the responsibility of making good choices.

True, but one the "General" things he does is "Generally kick the crap out of cryx" which is always a good thing.

Clearly, I am biased towards Rasheth, but I'd also lump both hexeris 1 and 2 into the upper tier of our warlocks. Even the "bad" warlocks are not unplayable.

Both excellent points. As I said, I love Hexeris, even in matches where his feat is basically non-existent. What I enjoyed about learning to play with him (he was the first warlock I picked up) is his generalist nature, both in what he can do and consequently where on the board he wants to be. He also transitions well between early and lategame (e.g. Life Drinker can off-set having to cut for Fury). He isn't too particular about what you bring with him, as even for his arc-node beast there are a number of good choices (Krea, Razorworm, Shaman, Cannoneer...). All that means that he's flexible in playstyle, and I felt that that was beneficial to learning different aspects of the game. I think he's definitely worth a look if you're interested in picking up something besides the "power" casters.

-H

[Earthcrosser599]

eMorghoul and pHexeris are two I consider bad. eMorghoul is boring to the point where the game is actually not worth playing most of the time, and has the most repetitious set of abilities ever made. I've tried to like pHexeris but he doesn't seem to do anything. Most of his activations for me involve halfheartedly casting an Obliteration at something for lack of anything else to do and watching my feat not do anything of importance. Occasionally I try to go for the attack run via odd charge angles and Beat Back but it hardly ever works for me.

I think they can do okay if you bring them to specific matchups; eMorghoul looks like he's decent for breaking trolls and pHexeris can stop Druids and Battle Mages.

[PG_dungeongod]

I won my first tournament (local) with skorne running Hexeris1. He is a solid caster who has a LOT of options. He is a toolbox, and toolboxes are always useful. Yeah, his feat is either "OMG HE HURTS BAD!!1!1" or "Oh that's cute. Don't worry - it happens to a lot of Warlocks!" But his spell list, and abilities, are all top notch, and more than make up for it in my experience.

[PG_petegrrrr]

eMorghoul and pHexeris are two I consider bad. eMorghoul is boring to the point where the game is actually not worth playing most of the time, and has the most repetitious set of abilities ever made. I've tried to like pHexeris but he doesn't seem to do anything. Most of his activations for me involve halfheartedly casting an Obliteration at something for lack of anything else to do and watching my feat not do anything of importance. Occasionally I try to go for the attack run via odd charge angles and Beat Back but it hardly ever works for me.

I think they can do okay if you bring them to specific matchups; eMorghoul looks like he's decent for breaking trolls and pHexeris can stop Druids and Battle Mages.

The point is, in most tournaments you CAN bring them to specific match ups.

I generally builds an anti hordes/armor cracking list (i.e. Rasheth Tier 4) and an anti troop spam/warmachine list (which pHexeris is amazing at).

You will blow your extension on his feat turn every time, but in a multi list format he cannot possibly be a low end warlock. He's just too devastating against troop spam.

[PG_Chris Cuevas]

I think he was hated not because Rasheth was considered weak. Most were just expecting a beast caster.

You guys kill me with this. How is Rasheth not a ridiculously good "beast caster"!?!?

[PG_dungeongod]

He isn't the "OMG Morghoul1 With lots of FURY!!!" that I think some people wanted. He is a solid warlock, and has lots of good support across the board. I agree with you Chris Cuevas, for what it is worth

[PG_Chris Cuevas]

He isn't the "OMG Morghoul1 With lots of FURY!!!" that I think some people wanted. He is a solid warlock, and has lots of good support across the board. I agree with you Chris Cuevas, for what it is worth

Lol, thanks Dungeongod. I think thats the answer I've been looking for , for so long; Morghoul with 8 fury

[Hasten]

Lol, thanks Dungeongod. I think thats the answer I've been looking for , for so long; Morghoul with 8 fury

Amusingly, that was pretty much what he was "spoiled" to be. Prior to his release someone had put some fake "spoilers" up claiming that he had 8 Fury, a rocking spell list including Abuse, and a Titan-centric feat. So that certainly biased our initial impressions.

-H

[gaminguy]

Well, he does have 8 Fury, a rocking spell list with Blood Mark (which has about the same effect as abuse...), and a titan-centric tier list, so the spoilers weren't totally off.

OT:

I'd go with EMorg, Mordikaar, and Naaresh:

EMorg is a selfish assassing in a faction designed around warlock-supports-army.
Mordikaar is actually pretty good, but he can lose a major chunk of his design spec to EEyriss.
Naaresh is just a heck of a balancing act, he punishes even small mistakes.

[gaminguy]

Oh for Pete's sake.

[muffinman331]

I think it's hard to class any of our warlocks as "bad". I have seen lots of rankings that look like:
1. eMakeda, eHexeris
2. everyone else
3. eMorghoul

I really think eMorghoul is better than people give him credit for. It's hard to say he's below "everyone else".

One of the things I love about Skorne is the variety in our casters. we don't really have "bad" casters, but we have a ton of different approaches. A caster I don't play well with might be the best caster in another player's arsenal. Some are definitely easier to start with (pHexeris, either Makeda), but once you get the hang of the faction you can make any caster work for you if you want to.

[gaminguy]

Hard to argue against that, we do cover a lot of ground.

[PG_dungeongod]

I agree with your muffinman331. I have had a terrible time with Makeda2, despite her being considered an "easy mode" warlock, but I love Rasheth, Mordikaar and Hexeris1. I do really well with them too, at least locally.

[Unknown_Lifeform]

If you want to be challenged I'd mostly recommend staying away from Molik Karn who is generally seen as a bit of an easy button. In fact, as a new player it might be best to stay away from him anyway whilst you're learning to avoid comming to rely on him as a crutch.

eMorghoul is our main "sub par" caster. However, I wouldn't necessarily recommend picking him for a challenge because playing him well involves using very specific models that contribute to his play style and won't necessarily be staples of any other warlock. You might get some milage out of finding uses for some of the less liked units and beasts, all of which can in my view be made to work with the right list and play style.

[Talamare]

Hard to argue against that, we do cover a lot of ground.

That is because Skorne is the best Army!

CHEERS!

[BCS]

Yeah. eMorgoul isn't "bad". He's an assassin, which means that he and his army will need to be tailored to that purpose if you hope to have any success with him. You'll also need to risk getting him killed. That's just how he likes to be played.

So if you're risk averse and like an army that does several tricks fairly well rather than one trick very well, eMorgoul isn't the guy for you.