Slaughterborn with pSkarre=truckloads of love

[ChaosPhantom104]

So, I recently played a game against Khador, and on feat turn with pSkarre with dark guidance up, Slaughterborn walked through two doom reavers, four widow makers and then slapped a destroyer in the face for a nice 10 damage(as nothing else was in range for the last killing spree hit). Bottom line, MAT8 on three dice is hitting every. Freaking. Thing in the game, and killing every single wound infantry. I can't think of a better caster to take him with, for that level of performance.

[ethsar46]

Yeah, hes really nice when you've got 3d6 to hit as long as you can keep him in range of the spell. He is also pretty great for eGaspy's feat.

[2LiveIs2Die]

I find he is better at the infantry train with Mortenebra, because even with 3 dice to hit you will still botch a roll pretty quickly. Getting to reroll every single roll under her feat gives you a much higher chance of not screwing it up. Granted either one is nice.

[Sanctjud]

You could add puppet strings as the cherry on top

[Decade]

Now only if we could have a way to give him Grievous Wounds on his weapon, because few things are quite as upsetting as having the General stop dead in his tracks on the first guy because of a tough roll. I know we've got the blood hag, but that's not nearly the same. Giving him personally the ability to cancel tough, heals and transfers would make him, honestly, ridiculous.

[Gamingdevil]

Giving him personally the ability to cancel tough, heals and transfers would make him, honestly, ridiculous.

Which is entirely the point We'll just have to be content with parking a Blood Hag behind him.

[Quizboy]

eSlaughterborn, in the spirit of all the recent cavalry casters: he's riding a Stalker!

[ZombieWar]

I played a game against dwarves where he killed an entire forgeguard unit without rolling dice. Cant fail the hit with 3 dice and pow 18 means he couldnt help but kill them.

[Chad]

I find he is better at the infantry train with Mortenebra, because even with 3 dice to hit you will still botch a roll pretty quickly. Getting to reroll every single roll under her feat gives you a much higher chance of not screwing it up. Granted either one is nice.

I don't think the math bears this out. If he needed 7s to hit - on 3 dice that's a 90.7% chance to hit. With needing 7s on two dice with at least one hitting I think you're in the 82 ish percent range. At the low end needing 4s, 3 dice nets you 99.5% and Mortenebra's reroll hits at 99.3. At the higher end needing a 10 Skarre hits 62.5% of the time, Mortenebra is about 30.6%.

Skarre + 3 dice to hit is superior to a reroll. Besides which, if you can catch him in Skarre's feat he'll be swinging at P&S 18s.

Now only if we could have a way to give him Grievous Wounds on his weapon, because few things are quite as upsetting as having the General stop dead in his tracks on the first guy because of a tough roll. I know we've got the blood hag, but that's not nearly the same. Giving him personally the ability to cancel tough, heals and transfers would make him, honestly, ridiculous.

Tough is one of the best abilities in the game now, since it trumps so many things. In this case though, I think it's just greedy.

If you really want it though, there's always a blood hag.

[blakeh1]

Yes, but with Skarre you can't reroll those all 1's rolls and miss even if you only need 3 or less to hit in the first place. Plus you also get to reroll those botched damage rolls where you might need a 2 or 3 to kill and roll that 2 or 3. Under Skarre's feat it is a different story since he auto kills pretty much any infantry.

Against higher DEF (14 and up), yes Dark Guidance is probably better, but against DEF 12, I think the rerolls on both attack and damage from Mortenebra's feat are better.

You've got 2 extra inches under Mortenebra to go on your killing spree and still benefit from her feat, but then again, she is not going to be playing quite as up front as Skarre.

[Iixil]

eSlaughterborn, in the spirit of all the recent cavalry casters: he's riding a Stalker!

LOL omg this!

[Chad]

Yes, but with Skarre you can't reroll those all 1's rolls and miss even if you only need 3 or less to hit in the first place. Plus you also get to reroll those botched damage rolls where you might need a 2 or 3 to kill and roll that 2 or 3. Under Skarre's feat it is a different story since he auto kills pretty much any infantry.

The damage roll point is valid - if you discount Skarre's +5 strength on her feat. At which point very few reroll situations are going to net you more. Skarre's +5 damage skews the curve as both minimum and maximums are increased.

Say Gerlak at P&S 13 is rolling against an ARM 20 model. On 7s you won't breach (it's actually better odds than average because of the way armor calculation works), even a re-roll gives you the same odds of not breaching ARM, but Skarre's amazing feat changes the curve. With you only failing to breach on a roll of snakeyes. Anything less than 20 and you'll do at least a point of damage no matter what. At higher ARM values (22-24) Mortenebra offers disappointingly low chances of doing damage, whereas Skarre still maintains decent chances of doing some damage. At a certain threshhold (25+) mortenebra can't even breach ARM with Gerlack. Skarre still can.

The ability to re-rolling the 'all 1s rolls' isn't really a very good reason to value Mort over Skarre, since you are more likely to miss in the first place. With Mortenebra you're odds of double 1s is 1 in 36 (2.8 ish percent), whereas your odds with Skarre are 1 in 216 (0.46%). Your odds of double failing the double 1s roll is very very small, but it isn't a good enough to offset the value of the additional die.

You're essentially trading off the higher percentage chance to hit on every to hit (which gets wider for each DEF point added) roll for the insurance on something that is relatively rare.

Against higher DEF (14 and up), yes Dark Guidance is probably better, but against DEF 12, I think the rerolls on both attack and damage from Mortenebra's feat are better.

Unfortunately, the facts show differently.

DEF 12, with Gerlak's MAT 8 needs 4s (this was in my first example). Needing 4s on 3 dice is the lowest roll you can have without a miss - which gives Gerlack a 99.5 (ish) percent to hit. With Mortenebra needing 4s - including rerolls - she hits in the 99.1 percent area. Which is less, though not significantly, than Skarre.

Re-rolling damage is a cool ability, especially with models that can have multiple attacks, but it doesn't hold a candle to +5 STR with a melee model. Here's another way to think about it - a Mortenebra reroll must be at least 6 higher than the previous roll in order to make it better than Skarre's straight +5. Against an ARM 18 opponent, for example - Gerlak under rolls a 9 for 4 damage. You're not going to re-roll that unless you're desperate. But Skarre has done 9 damage. Say instead you rolled a 7, Mortenebra might reroll that but she's gambling against the odds - if she doesn't she scores two damage and Skarre in the same circumstance has done 7 and no re-roll will let Mortenebra roll greater than 7, and you could also roll less. If you roll a dismal 4, Mort doesn't breach ARM and Skarre does - though it's only 4. Mort's re-roll must be an 10+ to get the advantage over Skarre.

In the realm of melee - Skarre just does it better.

[NecroticDischarge]

I find he is better at the infantry train with Mortenebra, because even with 3 dice to hit you will still botch a roll pretty quickly. Getting to reroll every single roll under her feat gives you a much higher chance of not screwing it up. Granted either one is nice.

I agree with this he is excellent w morty if you want to sacrifice tier hotness but he is equally awesome w pskarre when you see IFassassins or IFWG. A reroll via combine should float your through most situations though unless the dice gods just hate you that day.

[max2323]

I played a game against dwarves where he killed an entire forgeguard unit without rolling dice. Cant fail the hit with 3 dice and pow 18 means he couldnt help but kill them.

As far as I know, even with boosted attack rolls you need to roll to hit...wouldn't three one's be considered a critical miss?

[ZombieWar]

I was under the impression that it did not but i guess i could be wrong about that. trip 1s looks to have about .45% chance of happening so it very well could still be an autofail. I dont have my book handy so i will need to look that up when i get home.

[Sanctjud]

All 1s is a fail, no matter how many dice you roll.
My problem is delivering him and the opponent not spacing nicely for me, unless it is with eGaspy, then he has a chance, and even then, he ends his chain early for me...always.

[Chad]

As far as I know, even with boosted attack rolls you need to roll to hit...wouldn't three one's be considered a critical miss?

Three ones is a fail to hit, I pointed this out earlier in the thread.

I want to put this puppy to bed, so here's some numbers -

Mort vs. Skarre chance of miss based on roll needed (approx)

Crit miss or needing 3s - 0.07% vs. 0.46%
4 - 99.3% vs. 99.5%
5 - 97.2% vs. 98.1%
6 - 92.2% vs. 95.4%
7 - 82.6% vs. 90.7%
8 - 66% vs. 83.8%
9 - 47.7% vs. 74.1%
10 - 30.6% vs 62.5%
11 - 15.9% vs. 50%
12 - 5.5% vs. 37.5%
13 - 5.5% vs. 25.9%
14 - 5.5% vs. 16.2%
15 - 5.5% vs. 9.3%
16 - 5.5% vs. 4.6%
17 - 5.5% vs. 1.8%
18 - 5.5% vs. 0.05%

As you can see - Mort is slightly behind the curve until about the 'needing 7' point at which she starts dropping off appreciably. She stays way behind until the point of needing 15s and gains again at 16s. Now, Mortenebra really does well when it's rerolls on 3 dice, but then you'd be comparing that to Skarre's rolling 4s to hit in the same scenario.

Damage reroll vs. Skarre +5 a little squidgy - mostly because of certain way the numbers play out with regards to ARM. For example - Mortenebra will re-roll anything that doesn't breach ARM, but she also has the possibility of coming out with a worse roll than the previous.

Skarre's bonus is just a straight +5 - which means (as I noted earlier) that in equitable situations one model damaging another if the roll is 7-12 (or right around 58.3% of the time) Mortenebra cannot re-roll well enough to do better than Skarre in that circumstance. If she rolls a 6, then she has a 2.8% chance of rolling better than Skarre would have, 69.4% ish chance to do better than she did but not good enough to beat Skarre, and a 27.8% ish chance of doing worse. The point at which a re-roll actually has a better chance of improving the roll AND beating Skarre on the re-roll is rolling 4 or less (16.7% of the time) - however, the flip side of that same argument is rolling an 8+ will always be better than a re-roll from Mortenebra - which will happen 41.7% of the time.

Now everyone's experience is different - and I'm sure I'll never convince anyone who believes otherwise - but the numbers are there to support Skarre as the significantly superior choice in melee output in the largest number of realistic cases.

That's not to say Morty is bad, she definitely isn't. Her Jack synergy and shenanigans are fantastic AND her feat covers ranged re-rolls as well I believe, which makes her ranged options far outclass pSkarre in likely output.

[ChaosPhantom104]

Sorry, guys. I didn't mean for this to turn into a "who's better" debate, more of a "let's share our love for slaughterborn and/or pSkarre! ".

[ZombieWar]

both are fap worthy.

[Chad]

Sorry, guys. I didn't mean for this to turn into a "who's better" debate, more of a "let's share our love for slaughterborn and/or pSkarre! ".

No worries, I'm just providing the data to allow people to make informed choices.

Gerlak is a phenomenal model if you can get him in. PSkarre is just about the best possible combination of abilities for him, though I would make the case that P-Deneghra probably allows him to last longer, since her feat denies charges, special attacks, etc., and affects MAT/RAT.

The MK2 unit formation rules generally cluster units together for much more kill-able formations.

For a one time go, though Dark Guidance is just so good with MAT 8.

[Sanctjud]

I like Gerlack with pSkarre, mainly due to the Theme list bonus, he and his Gorgers get to advance move and Pathfinder round 1. It raises eyebrows.

Edit, corrected by The Junkie.

[Rhin0]

Something to think about, Your example with Morty only works on Feat turn, Skarre needs only to cast DG...

Had Gerlack clean up an entire unit of Hex hunters.

He charged out into Bayal and killed him with the boosted damaged, then made his way around, needing 6+ to hit on 3 dice, and auto killing,
removed 11pts in a turn, and got to have a 3 dice damage swing at an injured carni... happy days.

[Cambrian]

I've found him to work best with pSkarre (though admittedly I've never ran him with Morty). eGaspy loves him since he can get there, can come back once he's dead, and always (yes-- *always*) shares the list with the puppeteering WSC.

The biggest drawback for pSkarre is the difficulty of getting him into the action. Satyxis help to engage the shooting enemies early but sometimes it's not enough and it comes down to a tough roll...

[Rhin0]

Something to think about, Your example with Morty only works on Feat turn, Skarre needs only to cast DG...

Had Gerlack clean up an entire unit of Hex hunters.

He charged out into Bayal and killed him with the boosted damaged, then made his way around, needing 6+ to hit on 3 dice, and auto killing,
removed 11pts in a turn, and got to have a 3 dice damage swing at an injured carni... happy days.

[Sanctjud]

Lol, Rhin0 double post (I know it's likely not his fault) with enough time for Cambrian to get sandwiched between.

[Rhin0]

oh man... what an internet fail... said page didn't load

[The Junkie]

I like Gerlack with pSkarre, mainly due to the Theme list bonus, he and his Gorgers get to AD and Pathfinder round 1. It raises eyebrows.

I am playing pSkarre t4 and really love Gerlack and two min units of Gorgers. (btw- the Gorgers get Advance Move, the Helljacks get AD)

[ChaosPhantom104]

Gerlak is a phenomenal model if you can get him in. PSkarre is just about the best possible combination of abilities for him, though I would make the case that P-Deneghra probably allows him to last longer, since her feat denies charges, special attacks, etc., and affects MAT/RAT.

A valid and strong point, yes, but let's face it: pDenny makes EEEEEEVERYTHING last longer and do better. XD hell, even drudges kick *** with her. O.o (my very first unit was the drudges, with my very first caster, pDenny. I guess that why I don't hate them, as she made them awesome. Xd)