Tactica: Feral Warpwolf/ Warpwolf Stalker

[PG_Darkblood]

Tactical Comparison of possibly our two heaviest hitters the Feral Warpwolf and the Warpwolf Stalker

"The druid army is recruiting, here drink some off this potion.. er punch... and I'll go over the details...."
vs.

So I never noticed neither of these models where in our Wilding Way. And given their general profile being the same, a hard hitting heavy I'm forgoing writing different tacticas and instead compare them since these models are normally fighting for a spot in my 35 point list. Don't get me wrong absolutely nothing wrong with taking both but knowing what separates these models is good, since knowing the strengths/ weaknesses can help a new player know which he should take first in his list. As always feel free to disagree and if i get something wrong let me know and I'll edit i9t right away.

Overview:
[Both these models have the same overview to me with slight differences. This is my heavy hunter model, our factions generic heavy warbeast.

Stats:
Both have the same fairly high speed. The Feral has +1 Str over the stalker giving him bonuses to power attacks. Feral also has +1 Mat which is AMAZING you will really be amazed how much that extra Mat comes into handy especially when trying to munch on warcasters/warlocks. Same high Def for a heavy and the Stalker has +1 natural Arm. Same Fury and Thr. The Stalker comes in at +1 point Arm which is good but not game breaking, these models survive more often then not on their defense stat. The feral lacks pathfinder which can be worked around but is something bad to lose out on in circle.

Weapons:
So the choice here is an extra attack or and extra pow and reach. This means the feral has better damage against things under arm about 22, also he hits better which is astronomical to damage, and has increased benefits from buffs. The stalker has better damage to heavier targets, those evil combos you'll see some times and things like the Khador clam.

Warps:
Feral has Str Arm and Spd. Spd helps mitigate his lack of reach and arm his lower arm, but youll be using Str most of the time
Stalker gets Prowl Berserk and Str. Prowl is slightly better then arm since you completely mitigate ranged dmg. Str is what youll use most of the time. Berserker will tear threw infantry with poor defenses so most the 4-6 units out there.

Animus:
The feral's is crap and the Stalkers is game changing, the ability to retreat especially with pathfinder or give that to other models is really really nice and comes really in handy.

Synergies:

I've tried writing this 3 times now so I'm going to go over the huge ones

Baldur: He likes wolds

pKaya: She likes the stalker, she helps his mat and his higher maneuverability is better for yo-yo's

eKaya: She likes both, but I like forced evo on the feral better. Dog pile mitigates the lack of pathfinder too. Honestly she benefits the feral more but I'd take both. Don't discount the Stalkers animus for helping her army though, I'll leave my suggestion to both!

pKrug: Feral, Feral, Feral. Giving him reach makes him an auto take over the stalker with this caster. A max of 7 electro leaps will tear through infantry too.

Kromac: Stalker for the most part. Warpath adds to your movement shenanigans and when you add sprint to it your movement really gets crazy. Wild Aggression really covers for the low Mat too. Check the discussion bellow

Mohsar: Sprint when coupled with Pillars of salt really let you keep your beasts safe!

After that our support models support both of them almost equally.

Conclusion:

Nice pros and cons. Here is the thing these models both fit the same profile and generally get the same thing done, it depends on how exactly you want to play them and your personal preference, I can honestly say except for pKruger there is no auto decision to which is better
Feral
+Higher Mat
+Lower Cost
+Better Power Attacks
+Better use off str buffs
-no pathfinder
-no reach

Stalker
+Reach
+Good maneuverability
+Good animus
-Lack of two open fists
-Low Mat

I've tried writing this 3-4 times now so its admittedly kinda shallow after the 3rd rewrite. Feel free to leave opinions if they are well thought out I'll edit to include them! Hope you enjoyed.

*Check the discussion below for other people opinions, I want to stress again how much the choice between these models is generally personal opinion bar certain casters, the discussion below can almost help to prove that!

[PG_Darkblood]

Saved for more items

[Cronix]

Kromac + Stalkers, feral aggression + warpath is a silly good combination.

[Orbis Orboros]

While I like the rules of the Feral better in other regards, the stalker makes it into ALL of my non Baldur lists because a of his animus, which our faction is pretty nearly built around (IMO anyway). The animus is so good, I often take the Wilder to facilitate throwing it out there, especially if I'm bringing the Gorax (most games) or Gnarlhorn. Comparatively, the Feral has little to do with the Wilder. So, the Stalker and Wilder go together (relevant to your equal support piece comment).

It should also be mentioned, or pointed out to new players, that the Shifting Stones benefit both beasts equally... But differently. To expound:
Both beasts are Large base, extremely close to 2". Stones shift very close to 8"+ base. So both beasts shift very close to 10". However, the Stalker has Reach and the Feral does not, giving it an additional 1.5" threat range regardless of movement. So the stalker has a larger threat range when shifted than the Feral.
As for benefiting the Feral, its quite simple. While the Stalker has Pathfinder, the Feral does not, and Shifting Stones place models, which ignores rough terrain (or any other kind). So Shifting Stones help the Feral more than the Stalker, in terms of terrain.

[brokennecron]

I like what you wrote but I don't think you can get deep enough into the synergies and nuances of the models without writing seperate tacticas for them

[mercury]

Personally I prefer the Feral with pKaya. Spirit Door is kind of a better version of Sprint, so you rarely need the Stalker's animus. The Feral has a base MAT of 7, meaning that he is a MAT9 Trampling terror with Kaya's Pack Hunters bonus. He can also use Warp Speed to extend the range of his Tramples to 11". Add in a Gnarlhorn's animus, and this becomes a 13" Trample.

I'd also argue that eKaya prefers the Stalker. Though her abilities superficially interact better with the Feral Warpwolf (as you have surmised above), you also have to think about what the Stalker brings for the list overall. eKaya REALLY wants access to the Stalker's animus to complement her hit-and-run, multi-alpha strike playstyle. For this reason I would select a Stalker first, though I would often choose both the Stalker and Feral (and Pureblood too!) if I were playing an eKaya list.

Kromac wants a Stalker before any other Warbeast (even Ghetorix) because the movement shenanigans you can gain from Warpath + Sprint are really pretty silly. Wild Aggression also makes up for the Stalker's MAT6. The combination of a Wild Aggression'd Stalker using Beserk, Warpath, Berserk (again), then Sprint to safety (all in a single turn) is truly beautiful to behold.

Mohsar also prefers a Stalker because of the animus. Sprint enables Mohsar's Warbeasts to kill something and move back into a position which can be protected by Pillars of Salt. This grants you multiple alpha strikes if your opponent fails to deal with the Pillars, or (as often happens) ends up blocking his own charge lanes whilst taking out the Pillars.

In all honesty, the combination of Pathfinder, Reach and a fantastic animus means that I would select the Stalker over the Feral Warpwolf with all of our Warlocks, except pKaya and pKrueger for reasons already discussed.

[Bakemono]

Personally I prefer the Feral with pKaya. Spirit Door is kind of a better version of Sprint, so you rarely need the Stalker's animus. The Feral has a base MAT of 7, meaning that he is a MAT9 Trampling terror with Kaya's Pack Hunters bonus. He can also use Warp Speed to extend the range of his Tramples to 11". Add in a Gnarlhorn's animus, and this becomes a 13" Trample.

I'm a fan of the Feral too, but I don't think I'd ever call Spirit Door a better version of Sprint. My question is "how" do you deal with the problem that you have to have P-Kaya so close to the front lines to get that +2 MAT? In general, I find she has to be in assassination range to provide her benefit. I'm not too hip to that. Above 25pt games it is really difficult to keep her alive. The Stalker, with the additional range provided by Reach, gives P-Kaya that much more wiggle room. He can start his activation with Primal on him (cast by the Gorax) do a charge to extreme range, remaining just inside P-Kaya's pump. This puts him at an effective MAT-10 and hitting hard as a truck if he warped for STR. He can then be Spirit Doored back on Kaya's activation. My point is that the extra point you pay for the Stalker provides you the 2" of Reach which is an effective match of the Feral's warp of Speed for combat purposes only better since he is more likely to be able to stay in P-Kaya's juicing range. You might not even need Primal depending on the target. I like the Feral, but P-Kaya doesn't generally need one since her innate ability already gives you one of the Feral's most important advantages, i.e. a higher MAT.

I'd also argue that eKaya prefers the Stalker. Though her abilities superficially interact better with the Feral Warpwolf (as you have surmised above), you also have to think about what the Stalker brings for the list overall. eKaya REALLY wants access to the Stalker's animus to complement her hit-and-run, multi-alpha strike playstyle. For this reason I would select a Stalker first, though I would often choose both the Stalker and Feral (and Pureblood too!) if I were playing an eKaya list.

Hrm. I've had the opposite experience. I like the Stalker (and tend to have one in most lists) but I don't think Epic Kaya prefers it. She already grants her battlegroup Stealth so that ability is pointless. She has a spell that can grant everyone the ability to have Pathfinder to a target which kind of bypasses the built in Pathfinder. She already has a her Feat "super yo-yo" which afford so much threat/board control that opponents are going to either get hit by the whole battlegroup or be kept back which negates easy attrition. When I want an armor cracker I reach for Ghetorix these days in an Epic Kaya list. Don't get me wrong. I do take a Stalker, but only for the anti-infantry option he brings to an E-Kaya list. He is an auto-include for THAT purpose only at 50pts. At 35pts and less, he is the first wolf cut from my E-Kaya lists.

Kromac wants a Stalker before any other Warbeast (even Ghetorix) because the movement shenanigans you can gain from Warpath + Sprint are really pretty silly. Wild Aggression also makes up for the Stalker's MAT6. The combination of a Wild Aggression'd Stalker using Beserk, Warpath, Berserk (again), then Sprint to safety (all in a single turn) is truly beautiful to behold.

We are 100% in agreement here.

Mohsar also prefers a Stalker because of the animus. Sprint enables Mohsar's Warbeasts to kill something and move back into a position which can be protected by Pillars of Salt. This grants you multiple alpha strikes if your opponent fails to deal with the Pillars, or (as often happens) ends up blocking his own charge lanes whilst taking out the Pillars.

Hrm. I don't have an opinion on this because I haven't used this tactic extensively. I'll give it some tests though.

In all honesty, the combination of Pathfinder, Reach and a fantastic animus means that I would select the Stalker over the Feral Warpwolf with all of our Warlocks, except pKaya and pKrueger for reasons already discussed.

We are of the opposite opinion here. I don't think the P-Kaya needs a Feral's MAT. I think many of our other Warlocks benefit a great deal from starting at a MAT-7 and not needing a Gorax just to ensure that hit.

[Patuljak]

I agree with eKaya needing Stalkers. There's a bit of skornergy there with pathfinder and prowl, but I don't really find it significant - Shadow Pack is actually great, I find, because as soon theh Stalker goes in for the first time he's never going to warp Prowl again. He also brings infantry killing to compensate for her weakness (MAT6 is pretty crappy, but it's still a better infantry clearer than most beasts - I find opponents aren't going to let you line up 13" Feral tramples on your feat turn). Also, Lightning Strike has been, illogically, super useful for me with eKaya, as you can hold on with your feat turn if the opponent shoves a tarpit in your face, and enables her to continue the hit-and-run after the feat (it's not as effective as with other casters, but if you managed to cripple them enough it works).

+1 for the Stalker & Mohsar. I love Mohsar, play him the most by far, and Sprint behind Pillars (and possibly into Undergrowth as well) really works wonders. It's also great because he gets to PS20 without Primal with CoS, so you can put Lightning Strike on him, scrap a heavy and sprint back (preferably with a Wilder). It's a very steep learning curve with old Mo' though, placing Pillars properly takes a lot of practice, so I think that's what makes most people shy away from him. I've been experimenting with two Stalkers + Megalith lately (and Trackers or Druids, with a Totem for some out of phase attacks and solo hunting. Stones, Groves and Wilder as well of course) and it worked pretty good as a hit and run/denial list, but I'm still not sold on it as you become prey to some bad matchups that you didn't have before, namely buffed high DEF infantry spam that knows how to play vs Crevasse or, if you're not packing Druids, threat ranges above 11" in mid to late game (I used to take a Pureblood instead of the other Stalker, or min Wolf Riders + Morraig. Wow, a lot of brackets in my post.)

[Patuljak]

What the hell, third double post in three posts. Has quick reply been super buggy for anyone else lately?

[PG_Darkblood]

I like what you wrote but I don't think you can get deep enough into the synergies and nuances of the models without writing seperate tacticas for them

You have a good point I thought it would be more helpful to compare the two instead of making seperate tacticas since both models fit the same general role and in a list these models are fighting for the same spot.

[VOLK]

When in doubt, take both. SPD-warped Ferals with sprint are awesome.