Which 50 point eKaya is better?

[Malal8]

eKaya (+3)
-Laris
-Warpwolf Stalker (9*)
-Feral Warpwolf (8*)
-Pureblood Warpwolf (8*)
-Gnarlhorn Satyr (7*)
-Gorax (4)

Druids of Orboros (7)
Shifting Stones (2)
-Stone Keeper (1)
Warpborn Skinwalkers (5)
Druid Wilder (2)

50 points


eKaya (+3)
-Laris
-Warpwolf Stalker (9*)
-Feral Warpwolf (8*)
-Pureblood Warpwolf (8*)
-Gnarlhorn Satyr (7*)

Druids of Orboros (7)
-Druid Overseer (2)
Shifting Stones (2)
Shifting Stones (2)
-Stone Keeper (1)
Warpborn Skinwalkers (5)
Druid Wilder (2)

50 points


Basically the choice is between the gorax or druid UA + 2nd stone unit. The stones and UA give me more models but the gorax can give me a free suicide warbeast early game (that will be a nuke kamakaze), hang back and simply have access to primal (with him and wilder), or just be a backup beast to transfer wounds to.

The extra stones and druid UA have their points as well but I am just not sure. Druid UA adds nice anti-infantry and stones are more fury management/blockers/healers.

Both options seem to add versatility. Which one do ya'll like more?

[taffyjoe]

Hmm, I have a very similar problem. My EKaya list is the same as the first with the exception of the Druid UA instead of the wilder. The UA is prefered for advance deploy of the druids allows them to move up the field and vortex etc, this means they keep up with the rest of the army and tend not to get so shot up.

The wilder is dropped as Kaya often has fury to spare to bounce around animi, and the beasts can all cast it once as well, and Kaya can cope with the fury generated in the list with a little serenity, choice frenzy and occasionally a fury left on the pureblood with his high threshold.

I have tried without the Gorax and having the wilder + second unit of stones, and it is more flexible but a lot less hard hitting and accurate. Primal is still needed for big target removal - The Avatar, Camping Warnouns and now Colossals.

I'm sticking the wilder in the reinforcements with some beasts, which works fine (Kaya likes second turn feat+reinforcment redeployment if wanted).

[Malal8]

Hmm, I have a very similar problem. My EKaya list is the same as the first with the exception of the Druid UA instead of the wilder. The UA is prefered for advance deploy of the druids allows them to move up the field and vortex etc, this means they keep up with the rest of the army and tend not to get so shot up.

The wilder is dropped as Kaya often has fury to spare to bounce around animi, and the beasts can all cast it once as well, and Kaya can cope with the fury generated in the list with a little serenity, choice frenzy and occasionally a fury left on the pureblood with his high threshold.

I have tried without the Gorax and having the wilder + second unit of stones, and it is more flexible but a lot less hard hitting and accurate. Primal is still needed for big target removal - The Avatar, Camping Warnouns and now Colossals.

I'm sticking the wilder in the reinforcements with some beasts, which works fine (Kaya likes second turn feat+reinforcment redeployment if wanted).

Ya getting AD on the druids is a big help since they want to be in front of the warbeasts from the start. Plus I do not have a lot of good anti-infantry tools other than pure's spray and a hack n slash stalker. The wilder seemed really good because she can dump a warbeast to help with fury management, cast a number of useful animi for free as well as allow me to use a flank and slide tactic with eKaya's feat which I think is a really cool option. I am brand new to warmahordes and her feat just seems to be so much fun and has a few different solid uses. A guy showed me the "assassination/teleport move followed up with her feat to get the entire army behind enemy lines" trick in my first game the other day and I just fell in love.

I may start out going with the UA + stones at first since I doubt people will bring super hard stuff to my nooby games at first. I was also tempted to keep the gorax in and drop the satyr but his animus is really solid and I fear 3 heavy / 1 light may be too underwhelming for a 50 point game.

[taffyjoe]

Anti-Infantry:

Take your Feral + forced evolution + Bounding, Warp either ghostly or speed (depending on whther the unit your about to mush has reach/weapon master or not - you want to avoid free strikes) and trample for free through them - MAT 9 P+S 13 hit to everything you contact, and your either going 11 or 13 inches in any direction you want. Then giggle.

On the feat you you boune back to Kaya and you havn't spent a single fury on the feral (Upkeeping forced evo and bounding will cost 3).

On - 4 heavies is golden with EKaya, you can get very cavalier with them.

[Blaque]

Both of your lists are actually over by 3pts.

I personally kind of take a middle ground, and take a Shadowhorn instead of a Feral so that I can get the Druid UA in there. I only run minimum Skinwalkers for it to fit. Those together I actually prefer since it creates a nice variety of animi that the Wilder can grant, warbeast that synergizes very well with Kaya2's feat, and takes Forced Evolution pretty well, and the ADing Druids with the advantages above.

And stuff.

[Malal8]

Well thanks for the responses guys.

@ Blaque

I like the idea of using a Shadowhorn instead of the Feral to get the UA in. The Feral has a horrible animi but he does seem like a really versatile beater. Now I must ponder

Also I am running the skinwalkers at minimum at the moment. The (5) shows their point cost. Is that why you think I am over? Because I am counting 53 and then adjusting it down to 50 with kayas +3. I think I am doing this right.

[Sp1ice]

No you actually have your points off.. the Pureblood is 9 and the Stalker is 10 and the Feral is 9 so you are off 3 points there already

[taffyjoe]

No you actually have your points off.. the Pureblood is 9 and the Stalker is 10 and the Feral is 9 so you are off 3 points there already

EKaya tier 4 bonus is a discount on heavy beasts. I think Blaque was counting max skinwalkers rather than min?

I like the Ferals MAT, but there is no 'right' answer here - I compromise to get him in the list, Blaque works around it and takes a more versatile beast.

[mercury]

Both of your lists are correct. I think that Blaque was assuming that you were selecting a max unit of Skinwalkers.

@Taffyjoe

I'm sticking the wilder in the reinforcements with some beasts, which works fine (Kaya likes second turn feat+reinforcment redeployment if wanted).

Unfortunately, you cannot use the Wilder as a reinforcement. Her 'Attached' rule prevents this - see page 10 of the SR2012 pdf.

@Sp1ce: eKaya's Theme Force grants you a 1-point discount on living heavy Warbeasts, hence the reductions in the cost of the Warpwolves and Gnarlhorn.

@ The OP: I'm not sure if you have the models for it, but I would personally select:

eKaya
- Stalker
- Stalker
- Pureblood
- Feral
Druids + UA
Shifting Stones + UA
3 Skinwalkers
Wilder

Forced Evolution means that a Gorax is less necessary than in some other Circle lists. I play pure hit-and-run with eKaya, and don't want my Warbeasts Frenzying when I pull them back, so a Gorax is less of a priority for me. I would add that I do rather like the Shadowhorn with eKaya. A Force Evo'd Shadowhorn is DEF17 against charge attacks. This makes him an excellent gambit piece. Play him up front to bait your opponent to charge him. If they miss with their charge attack (reasonably likely against DEF17), then they will be knocked down. This should tip the subsequent piece trades in your favour. It is a bit of a risky strategy though.

[Malal8]

@ The OP: I'm not sure if you have the models for it, but I would personally select:

At the moment I have nothing. I am literally a Warmahorde baby who just played his first 15 point game on Tuesday. Been researching the game all week. I do plan on buying enough stuff to make a 25 point list tomorrow when I go in for Friday Night Fantasy though!

eKaya
- Stalker
- Stalker
- Pureblood
- Feral
Druids + UA
Shifting Stones + UA
3 Skinwalkers
Wilder

A second stalker seems like the strongest choice on paper because his stats and the general opinion from forum cruising is that he is our "premier beast". A part of me does really like the tricks and extra animus a satyr can bring though. And a part of me really really wants to run two stones because I want to double teleport something in a really clever way and make my opponent say ***! Although I will probably get a second stalker at some point since I do think I will dabble with Kromac eventually.

I can't say DoubleUTF here? Sad panda

Forced Evolution means that a Gorax is less necessary than in some other Circle lists. I play pure hit-and-run with eKaya, and don't want my Warbeasts Frenzying when I pull them back, so a Gorax is less of a priority for me.

I am so happy you said this! Everywhere I turn I just keep reading on these forums that gorax is a must have and we can't open cans without gorax. The buff is awesome but I don't want an angry beast after I feat. He hits my guys and wastes his next turn. Yikes! Plus bounding and forced evo while not as fury efficient each provide half of primal with another perk attached. I am glad to hear I am not crazy.

I would add that I do rather like the Shadowhorn with eKaya. A Force Evo'd Shadowhorn is DEF17 against charge attacks. This makes him an excellent gambit piece. Play him up front to bait your opponent to charge him. If they miss with their charge attack (reasonably likely against DEF17), then they will be knocked down. This should tip the subsequent piece trades in your favour. It is a bit of a risky strategy though.

Okay so now I understand how his reversal works. Much thanks. Although you aren't helping in narrowing my decisions because now I want all the wolves and both the satyrs!

I think my end choice is going to be my second list but now I am unsure about which satyr.

Gnarlhorn
-Better offensive stats
-Counter Slam can help my charged war beast get a charge buff still in the next round
-Grand Slam helps with opening up lanes for assassination tricks and Follow Up allows him to keep punching still
-Bounding looks so sweet!!! The MAT 6 Stalker is just screaming for this!

Shadowhorn
-The bait trick looks really cool. DEF 17 is going to be a coin flip to hit with a boosted attack role. Even if they do hit though I seriously doubt a 17/17 will get killed in one round. Although I question if this trick is needed since you can just double alpha with kayas feat and our beasts seem to be pretty quick in comparison to others so charging should't be a massive problem to achieve.
-Bounding Leap makes this guy pretty mobile
-Animus is very lacking compared to the gnarlhorn's. At least from my nooby point of view.


While you have brought light to the Shadowhorn, the Gnarlhorn still looks slightly better. Also quick nooby question. Can these guys use their horns as normal attacks like a wolf's bite profile? Or is it only there for slams and headbutts?

[mercury]

Each Satyr has 3 base attacks: one from horns and one from each fist. The horns are special because you can add their POW to slam and headbutt attacks, which would usually be resolved at base STR (so you are effectively Slamming or Headbutting at STR+4).

[mercury]

-The bait trick looks really cool. DEF 17 is going to be a coin flip to hit with a boosted attack role. Even if they do hit though I seriously doubt a 17/17 will get killed in one round. Although I question if this trick is needed since you can just double alpha with kayas feat and our beasts seem to be pretty quick in comparison to others so charging should't be a massive problem to achieve.

It is, but it's one of those tricks that will rarely work twice against the same opponent. First off, Reversal only works against Charge or Slam attacks so if that attack hits (and the odds are often ~50/50, as you have pointed out), then you are likely to lose the Shadowhorn. It simply doesn't have enough ARM or damage boxes to stand up to another heavy in melee, regardless of DEF. Obviously, the Shadowhorn's value diminishes against high-MAT heavies (a Feral in a pKaya army springs to mind, but there are many others). Additionally a canny opponent can just avoid charging or slamming it. If they've had a charging Warjack knocked down in the past, they will probably just try to walk up to the Shadowhorn and Headbutt it instead, for example (or ignore your gambit altogether).

In short the Shadowhorn is a good match for eKaya, but a gimmicky one. You will probably be better of with other choices in the long-run.

[taffyjoe]

@Taffyjoe

Unfortunately, you cannot use the Wilder as a reinforcement. Her 'Attached' rule prevents this - see page 10 of the SR2012 pdf.

Forced Evolution means that a Gorax is less necessary than in some other Circle lists. I play pure hit-and-run with eKaya, and don't want my Warbeasts Frenzying when I pull them back, so a Gorax is less of a priority for me.

Damm it, a prefectly good idea ruined by being illegal (ta for the heads up - I had missed that in the pdf)

The Gorax is a funny one with EKaya, she can replicate the damage affects and Bounding helps the charge attack, but the payoff comes with the double dipping/stacking effect as well as the subsequent MAT bonus.

With Primal and forced Evo a Feral is MAT just under 10 and P+S over 20, thats crazy on something with 7 attacks (including the slightly weaker bite attack), a stalker has a point less MAT and a point more P+S. Getting that MAT up really matters, many warjacks/beasts are DEF 12, and you can easily miss one or two of those reach attacks, and thats before we get to the high Def Circle and Legion beasts.

That crazy P+S also matters for hard target removal, which would include the Avatar, Templar, Centurian and now - Collossals, and Kaya2 is one of Circles obvious go to casters against the big boys.

The frenzy is a pain, it can't be denied. You lose your beast for a turn, and you don't really want it near Kaya, but on feat turn you have the option to bring it back. You have to make sure you can determine what is nearest to it for it to chomp on (a druid or shifting stone) - you don't really want it faceing nothing as it'll be out of action for 2 turns.

For a 1 shot, removal of a target of worth (and that includes casters), a turn of inaction is often worth it. Also - you bring 4 big beasts with eKaya - some of the others should still be functioning.

[mercury]

I'm inclined to agree with you about the high-ARM stuff and Colossals; though my approach tends to be hit it once, withdraw to safety, repeat if necessary. My eKaya list has 2 Stalkers and a Feral. I will be happy to send two, or even all of these in to finish a Colossal, provided I could retreat afterwards. That's 1 P+S20, 1 P+S19 and 1 P+S18 Warbeast. They should do a job without a Gorax. In all honesty, it's my eBaldur Theme Force that I am worried about since I have no way of getting above P+S17 there. Most of our other Warlocks cannot buff their Warbeasts to P+S+4 with free charges, and I don't think that they will be rendered obsolete by Colossals. My point is that eKaya is better equipped than any of our other Warlocks to deal with Colossals, and might not therefore require a Gorax.

For a 1 shot, removal of a target of worth (and that includes casters), a turn of inaction is often worth it. Also - you bring 4 big beasts with eKaya - some of the others should still be functioning.

The problem is that I don't think that I could squeeze a fourth heavy into my preferred eKaya list if I also select a Gorax.

As an aside:
IMO the Avatar is a bigger issue (and would more likely necessitate a Gorax) because it is less of an investment for my opponent, meaning that I am less inclined to throw 2 or more Warbeasts at it in a turn as there will likely be other priority targets. Menoth's Gaze also means that Sprint might not function, forcing me to use eKaya's Feat if i want to withdraw. Additionally I cannot Dog Pile the Avatar, so my charges will be more restricted. That Warjack is a real PitA.

[taffyjoe]

I'm inclined to agree with you about the high-ARM stuff and Colossals; though my approach tends to be hit it once, withdraw to safety, repeat if necessary. My eKaya list has 2 Stalkers and a Feral. I will be happy to send two, or even all of these in to finish a Colossal, provided I could retreat afterwards. That's 1 P+S20, 1 P+S19 and 1 P+S18 Warbeast. They should do a job without a Gorax. In all honesty, it's my eBaldur Theme Force that I am worried about since I have no way of getting above P+S17 there. Most of our other Warlocks cannot buff their Warbeasts to P+S+4 with free charges, and I don't think that they will be rendered obsolete by Colossals. My point is that eKaya is better equipped than any of our other Warlocks to deal with Colossals, and might not therefore require a Gorax.

The problem is that I don't think that I could squeeze a fourth heavy into my preferred eKaya list if I also select a Gorax.

As an aside:
IMO the Avatar is a bigger issue (and would more likely necessitate a Gorax) because it is less of an investment for my opponent, meaning that I am less inclined to throw 2 or more Warbeasts at it in a turn as there will likely be other priority targets. Menoth's Gaze also means that Sprint might not function, forcing me to use eKaya's Feat if i want to withdraw. Additionally I cannot Dog Pile the Avatar, so my charges will be more restricted. That Warjack is a real PitA.

Yea, eKaya gets so tight on points. I've found that I want 4 heavies since I first tried it (disposable Warpwolves ftw!), and I'm still flipping between Gorax and Wilder/Stones. With the colossals i'm going to try both approaches, but I favour a pureblood over the second stalker - so there could be issues, and you may have probelms with Arcane Shielded Stormwalls.

@ the Avatar, that thing is undercosted - or shouldn't be a choir target. Still, one shotting it with Feral's is fun, if you can get throught the bloody screen of Errents. Dicegod's Harbinger list is a nightmare for Circle.

[Sp1ice]

EKaya tier 4 bonus is a discount on heavy beasts.

I always forget about that as I never have played a Tier list.

[Blaque]

Clarifying, yeah, I thought the Skinwalkers was how many there were, not how much they cost. My bad.

On a Gorax, I like it for a couple reasons. The first is, as mentioned, the MAT buff and double-stacking STR buffs. Getting even a Pureblood to P+S 20 is pretty important I find against some armies. Being able to simply point and click and kill any heavy out htere save maybe Tiberion with a single warbeast is very strong against some match-ups and helps a lot agains is the aformentioned Colossal match-up, where you might not necessarily kill that warjack, but can put a lot of hurt on it fast for the next go at it.

The other niceity is flexibility of actions. The Gorax's animus being an animus means that the Gorax itself or a Druid Wilder can cast it before or after Kaya goes, without Kaya having to cycle Forced Evolution. With a cycle, you can get some form of STR buff on all four heavies, and at only a cost of 3 fury from Kaya herself, which I think helps a lot in some turns where you find yourself against a lot of super-hard targets.

Primal's double-dip also helps the somewhat softer Satyrs. Getting Gnarlhorns to P+S 19 on the horns is nothing to scoff at. Finally, the frenzy might not be pleasant, but you can plan around it, especially since youc an put beasts such that they attack one-another (I'm willing to take a ding for long term games) or something less vital or that the opponent has somewhere. This frenzy in turn creates fury management, meaning you can on those big push turns crank your fury out higher with a bit of a long-term trade off later. This frees the Wilder up to focus on casting animi and getting more out of the feat, I think.

And stuff.