Doing it wrong and loving it!

[DSW]

Ah, forums.

I've been playing Warmachine for a while now, and have only recently taken a look at the forums. I've been doing pretty well, only losing a handful of times, mostly at 35 or less points. I tried 50 twice, both against Menoth, and learned what the Harbinger, the dirty, dirty Harbinger, is all about.

I picked up my army from a friend in 2008 or 2009, and it consisted of a few jacks, a couple of casters, doomreavers and a squad of MOW shocktroopers. I have begun to round it out since then. Never having read the forums, and unaware of the 'meta', as it were, I forged happily on ahead in Doing Everything Wrong. I ran Butcher lists with MOW, widowmakers, and multiple jacks. Beatsticking was fine in small point games. I added doomreavers and a solo(or trio ) here or there, and got stomped good by Menoth(dirty, dirty Harbinger).

Ah ha! Time to learn. Instead of shaking everything up, I went back to smaller games and started by changing the caster of the unit. I switched from Butcher to pVlad. I still rolled with the same stuff, but added an element here or there: MOW as the line, widowmakers, no less than 2 jacks. I mess about with mortars and field guns, great bears, and solos, but the meat and potatoes of the list is for the most part the MOW line, the widowmakers, and 2-3 jacks.

According to what I've been reading, this is all wrong. Oddly, my win rate is stellar with these various forces. I don't know, maybe everyone armies up to kill scads of light infantry. I actually don't even own any Winter Guard or Pikemen. I have been curious about them, but never needed the units to win games.

I have seen the game start to change at 50 points, and have been getting units here and there to round out a force to hit the tables with at that level. I am breaking down and getting some Pikemen, finally, as well as a merc here or there. I'm going to be picking up some Rifle Corps and Kovnik Joe. I finally picked up Mechaniks(and the UA).

Originally, I was building forces limited by the models I had. Then I went into the force design and began to design my army as a fairly hard beatstick for anti-armor use that was going to survive without relying on powers or the like. I have a hard time imagining having to play Winter Guard infantry, or Pikemen, or any of the other 'essential' units. That kind of talk actually riles up the contrarian in me, and I make faces at my screen. Why restrict yourself to the prison of the meta? That sort of thinking is poor and restrictive and sorely limits you on the battlefield.

Yes, I have games where my MOW do not get into combat. Yes, they failed to 'get their points back'. I still won. They performed a very important function on the map all the same and were an integral part of a larger strategy that led to victory. Yes, certain scenarios are tough(or very tough) because of the slower movement of the heavy elements of my army. That has led me to work on new tactics and new ways to position and plan with the forces I have. I think it's a better solution than sea changes, and certainly much easier on the wallet(though I want shiny new models!).

Short version for short attention spans: Meta seems fallacious to me, unless you are referring to a strictly contained tournament mindset. Freaking out over percieved changes to it seem counterproductive. We have a deep toolbox full of explody bits and pain sticks. We'll be fine. Honest.


Unless I have to fight the dirty, dirty Harbinger.

[philipcryx]

Your not doing it wrong, i dont know IRP or WGI (YET) and i have been winning. I guess i see it as this, are you having fun win or lose? if you say yes then you are not doing it wrong...its a game/hobby after all, its supposed to be fun.

[Krazy_Ivan]

/agree. Maybe its my meta, but our highly regarded infantry heavy lists just haven't worked for me. I've since switched to running 3 jacks with casters like pButcher, pVlad, and Harkevich at 35 points and have found a lot more success. Three of our Arm20+ models can really cause some headaches.

[philipcryx]

I think i always comes down to who you play and who you play. I am not expert player but i have Won games against armies where i figured i stood no chance and i have lost to armies where i figured i was a shoe in. If the Dice gods is with you any list can beat any list.

[PG_Warsmith]

I like this thread. At my shop we have a player who is returning to the game after leaving in MKI. I spoke with him not too long ago and he was saying how he hates WGDS. He heard from everyone and especially on the forum how overpowered it is and how he could win fairly regularly with it yet he has lost every game with it and told me he doesn't want to field it anymore.

My own personal experience after not playing Khador since the field test is quite similar. I have recently started reading the Khador forum again, and every list I see and every recommendation for a list includes either Kayazy or WGDS. I mean I think most players around here start their list with Kayazy and build from there. It's kind of ridiculous. Talk about playing with a crutch unit.

The last three weeks I have been playing MOW Demo Corp, MOW Shock Troopers, Mechaniks and I have got to say that I am really enjoying myself. I have won or been competitive in every game until the bitter end. So I guess forum advice only goes so far.

[Kuarnix]

My own personal experience after not playing Khador since the field test is quite similar. I have recently started reading the Khador forum again, and every list I see and every recommendation for a list includes either Kayazy or WGDS. I mean I think most players around here start their list with Kayazy and build from there. It's kind of ridiculous. Talk about playing with a crutch unit.

Some of us start from 2 Juggernauts and build from there.....

[PG_Warsmith]

Some of us start from 2 Juggernauts and build from there.....

Now you're talking buddy! I like that kind of thinking. Long time no see at the store.

[mostholycerebus]

Heh, that's cool man. I love MoW, they were of course my first unit. I remember my first time fielding the WGDS;

Opponent: ill shoot everything at the WG
Me: oh well, good game I guess
Opponent: All my shot miss
Me: Wait. What?
Opponent: I guess they will decimate my forces with those shotguns. You should win next turn.
Me: Wait. What?

Hehe, good times. MoW look wiz though!

[Kuarnix]

Yeah I've been doing an rpg on Tuesdays, and I keep being unfortunately busy on the tournie days.....

[Wisible]

Some of us start from 2 Juggernauts and build from there.....

Because some of us take the "Play like you gotta pair!" mantra to mean more than Beast 09 or go home.

[Esper]

Beast 09 is a character jack. You can't play with a pair of those, anyway.

[John of Arc]

Meta has two definitions. There's your local meta, the one that matters. It's what and who you expect to play against in your games. If you're winning a satisfactory number of games and you're having fun, then there's absolutely no reason to change what you're doing. Then there's the other definition: not your meta, but THE meta. The meta that consists of the powerful options chosen by top players at top tournaments, generally taken to counter the choices other top players will make. Very few posters on these forums have experienced that environment first hand (I sure haven't) but still enjoy talking about it. It can even help you grow as a player as long as you pay attention to the why and how instead of just what is taken. Some people, though, will just tell you to play Iron Flesh casters, don't take Man o War, only bring a single warjack, etc... Just because that's what pro players do. It's one thing if someone tells you that based on their own experiences; just be wary of the people who spend all their day reading the forums and sending naked pictures of themselves to Jamie P instead of actually playing the game.

[profparm]

[J]ust be wary of the people who spend all their day reading the forums and sending naked pictures of themselves to Jamie P instead of actually playing the game.

BUT HOW ELSE AM I SUPPOSED TO GET BETTER?!

:: cries in the corner :: At least I have Kayazy, Death Star, and Iron Fangs.

[Tossy]

Meta has two definitions. There's your local meta, the one that matters. It's what and who you expect to play against in your games. If you're winning a satisfactory number of games and you're having fun, then there's absolutely no reason to change what you're doing. Then there's the other definition: not your meta, but THE meta. The meta that consists of the powerful options chosen by top players at top tournaments, generally taken to counter the choices other top players will make. Very few posters on these forums have experienced that environment first hand (I sure haven't) but still enjoy talking about it. It can even help you grow as a player as long as you pay attention to the why and how instead of just what is taken. Some people, though, will just tell you to play Iron Flesh casters, don't take Man o War, only bring a single warjack, etc... Just because that's what pro players do. It's one thing if someone tells you that based on their own experiences; just be wary of the people who spend all their day reading the forums and sending naked pictures of themselves to Jamie P instead of actually playing the game.

Perfect post. While when i got started I read a lot of Jamie P stuff I have developed my own game since. I think a lot of people who post on these forums have not done that and cry Iron Flesh is the only way to play or jacks suck, etc etc etc. Eh, you summed it up better. I personally love MoW, and run them with eIrusk now it is nice to have a backup brick and I don't feel that the list has lost anything

[PG_Chosenbythesun]

I think that expecting a model to ” earn it's points back” is a fallacy. The last game I won, I killed two models a shepherd and Saeryn. That's it. You select a model for it's role in the army, not to be an equalizer.

[Tico Love]

I think that expecting a model to ” earn it's points back” is a fallacy. The last game I won, I killed two models a shepherd and Saeryn. That's it. You select a model for it's role in the army, not to be an equalizer.

I agree with this statement 100%. On the first Warmachine game I ever won, my opponent boxed half of my army. I boxed one of his models. His Warlock.

[Turtle_Assassin33]

I'm fairly new to Warmachine, but this thread is exactly what I needed. I only have about 25 points of khador so far, but I've been getting annoyed with people trying to tell me what units are the must have of my army. I like to make my own decisions, and build an army I can say that I built myself. In my opinion, an warmachine army is only half (if that) of the game. The other, more important half is the tactical placement and use of each individual unit in your army, and your effectiveness as a leader to make the right decisions each turn.
so, thank you for voicing exactly how i feel about this, I agree.

[RocketSurgeon]

I think that expecting a model to ? earn it's points back? is a fallacy. The last game I won, I killed two models a shepherd and Saeryn. That's it. You select a model for it's role in the army, not to be an equalizer.

I look at what each model is doing relative to its points on the field. Holding opposing models back or creating openings can be as valuable as a kill count. My drakhun earned it's points by having 8 points of models trapped in its melee range while I flanked. My bears absorbed 15 points worth of models attacking them over two turns so that I could have an advantage over the rest of the board.
I select models for their role, but judge them on their performance point for point.


There is a lot of success to be had playing against the grain if you're good at using the models you choose to use and know how to deal with the various threats you come across. I'm still a berserker believer Common wisdom isn't meant to be taken as the only wisdom.

[Kuarnix]

I think that expecting a model to ” earn it's points back” is a fallacy. The last game I won, I killed two models a shepherd and Saeryn. That's it. You select a model for it's role in the army, not to be an equalizer.

Yeah, because of the possible win conditions in this game a model can be extraordinarily good even if it doesn't "earn it's points" by killing or managing a raw number of enemy models (in points). In some other miniature games it's much more important. That said, there are still some models that will give you much more bang for your buck (in points) than others

[MathPasta]

I'm fairly new to Warmachine, but this thread is exactly what I needed. I only have about 25 points of khador so far, but I've been getting annoyed with people trying to tell me what units are the must have of my army. I like to make my own decisions, and build an army I can say that I built myself. In my opinion, an warmachine army is only half (if that) of the game. The other, more important half is the tactical placement and use of each individual unit in your army, and your effectiveness as a leader to make the right decisions each turn. so, thank you for voicing exactly how i feel about this, I agree.

Here is the problem. This stuff costs money. And you may feel all warm and fuzzy inside hearing inspiration and stuff, but later when those AK stare at you in the face you say "Why didn't anybody tell me this was a bad choice. I could have gotten like Two videogames for the same price as i spent on these guys". I managed to resell them later, but at a lower price.

[marasaidw]

I totally agree with local meta vs. the meta (which I've never played against). I play some smaller games, some bigger games, some steamroller and some caster kill. I find that depending on what kind of game I'm playing and what my opponents tend to like different things shine, as long as I'm playing carefully. Things like shocktroopers perform great when I'm in caster kill and not worried about high pow shooting. I've had scenario games where they are just about useless. My rule of thumb is when indoubt reach for the deathstar. They have an answer for just about everything, and in a forum when you don't know for sure what the other person's meta's like it's the safe suggestion.

[sourclams]

The internet is always guilty of being a herd-following groupthink-based noise machine. I don't care what game you play, this is the case. BUT, there is usually a nugget (sometimes a big one) behind the forum groupthink.

I think it's great you have fun with MoW and multiple jacks. BUT. If you were in my meta, I am confident that your W/L ratio would suffer badly. Mass, melee-oriented Spd4 would not serve you well.

The poster who made the cautionary note about 'yeah, but this stuff costs $$$' was dead on. If you have enough money to buy a faction and a Lamborghini to put it in, who cares what the internet says is good? But if your income is more limited, to some extent it is the role of the forums to steer you towards Kayazy with Behemoth and away from Kossite Woodsmen with Marauders.

[MathPasta]

Thing is, I like Kossites. There are things that can be done with them that I find very effective. But I will never PUSH them. I will never say "Its just groupthink to think they are ineffective at times". Because they are. I will never PUSH anything. Think for yourself man. I find that there are two groupthinks: Everything sucks, and everything rules. Both can cause you to make bad decisions in purchase. In hopes of sounding smarter then I am I made this:

A man always listened to the internet. He never played a game in fear of everybody else being better.
A man never listened to the internet, and wasted lots of money on things he didn't need.
But a third man did both, found his own play-style, accepted that some things where worse then others (And found a few things he found broken) and wen't his merry way.

[sourclams]

Your post basically boils down to "proxy", which is a fine approach.

[MathPasta]

Pretty much. Maybe you are an amazing strategic master with Only kossites. I donno. Just proxy first to see if they fit you.

[tjhairball]

Here is the problem. This stuff costs money. And you may feel all warm and fuzzy inside hearing inspiration and stuff, but later when those AK stare at you in the face you say "Why didn't anybody tell me this was a bad choice. I could have gotten like Two videogames for the same price as i spent on these guys". I managed to resell them later, but at a lower price.

Here's the other problem: Playing the infantry-heavy, large-number-of-models infantry armies costs a lot of money. If I play an army heavy in jacks, it's actually cheaper in dollars.

Iron Fang Pikemen and Winter Guard may be great units per point, but for the same cost as a full 10 point pikemen + UA, I can buy a Behemoth and any regular warjack, which comes to over 20 points of units.

[MathPasta]

Oh sure. I understand. Thats why Im not buying black Dragons. Merely Proxy.

And gosh darn it I wish Jack heavy armies where as effective as beast heavy armies (Outside of the occasional menoth combo)

[borboski]

Yes - I really like the sentiment here I just don't like the look of the smaller infantry pieces, so I might get some - eventually, but want I want to do is focus on Men o War, some Jacks, and a couple of interesting solos. I could get a list of the net, but I doubt I'd be interested enough to understand the tactics behind that Death Star and so it wouldn't necessarily help me.

[HRM]

Some of the "group-think" IS accurate. I finally conceded, however grudgingly, that one 'jack - even if it IS just a Juggernaut - works best with Sorscha 1.

[Shyndaar]

Generally read the forums with a grain of salt. Decide how you want to play and then play. Use the forums to see if anyone can give good advice on a list or unit. I started a really good thread about Uhlans because i thought they sucked. The forums changed my mind. And dont worry about costs. Play with friends or people who allow you to proxy stuff. Most of my army is cardboard. I play with people who dont mind that. When i go to my local shop i play what i own and have fun even if i get crushed.

Also, one of the best pieces of advice i got was from a Press Ganger in my area who plays Khador. Its all about piece trading. You usually have to sac something to get off the epic charge of axe facing. And "getting you points worth" is very silly. Ive not "gotten my points worth" from a Juggy and Destroyer in matches before. Its largely my own fault. But lately i LOVE sending big delicious targets at my opponents flanks. Get all your juicy units on their sides and keep the real threat in front. They cant effectively target all your options well enough to kill them if you deploy properly.

[mostholycerebus]

Some people, though, will just tell you to play Iron Flesh casters, don't take Man o War, only bring a single warjack, etc... Just because that's what pro players do. It's one thing if someone tells you that based on their own experiences;

Ok, sure. But, wisdom is learning from others mistakes. Im not wise. It took me countless losses fielding multiple jacks, MoWs, and mediocre casters before i figured it out. Now I field eSorscha with WGDS and Beast (only), and my games are a LOT more fun, I even win some too!

So, yeah, ignore the board meta if you want. You may even be some kind of amazing player who unlocks the secret to a Kossie-heavy Marauder-spam unbeatable list. Or, like me, you could waste months of gaming with mediocre and un-fun units instead of litening to the vets here. Its a free country.

N00bs should be guided to a core of Khador units that are good so they can learn to play our strengths and dont waste so much money that they abandon the game. Really, our box should be WGI with UA, Irusk, and Spriggan.

[MathPasta]

Also its not n00bs. Its newbie. N00bs are those who are NOT newbies yet still act and play like them.

[Wisible]

I agree with this statement 100%. On the first Warmachine game I ever won, my opponent boxed half of my army. I boxed one of his models. His Warlock.

Ditto. I beat my buddy's eMagnus army over the weekend. I only manged to kill one model. Guess which one it was?

[Flak Maniak]

I've been using fewer 'jacks of late... And it feels like selling out, like I'm not playing the game how I want to, like I'm not getting to have as much fun as I could. But I started playing eVlad, and he's amazing. I don't care that my army is almost entirely infantry. He's so cool. The elite infantry style with Transference and assassination threats all over the board is awesome. Yeah I only field one 'jack. So what? I'm having a blast. I found something I love even if it wasn't what I originally signed on for. eVlad gives a bit of that battlegroup feel because his focus is so directly spent on buffing specific models, and his whole play style is right up my alley.

So, yeah, I found something I love even if it doesn't involve tons of 'jacks. Now to make 'jack-heavy armies work. But even if I don't manage to find workable builds with four warjacks, I've got something awesome and I've managed to avoid IF Kayazy and WGI. (I do own Nyss though.)

Oh, and one more thing, if you want badass 'jacks: Use Beast 09 as your 'jack with eVlad. Beast runs for free, which is super important with eVlad, and has a huge amount of killing power, so you can still have those badass 'jack moments, even if Beast isn't the centerpiece of the army.

[KhaosSpectyr]

Oh, and one more thing, if you want badass 'jacks: Use Beast 09 as your 'jack with eVlad. Beast runs for free, which is super important with eVlad, and has a huge amount of killing power, so you can still have those badass 'jack moments, even if Beast isn't the centerpiece of the army.

i like drago n beast together with vlad. and if you take a Koldun Lord he can give beast the 1 focus he needs to charge in.

[CardiffTower]

As a player returning to WM/H after a 2 year lay-off (due to a relationship with a non-gamer) I immediately fell back to using an IF-caster with WGDS and 1 or two jacks. Unfortunately the local meta has evolved during this time and I am not winning a lot with the regular Global Meta lists. So, for a funzies game, I took pButcher in a 35 point game with a Jugggernaut, Beast09, Destroyer, Kodiak and wardog facing off against a beast heavy pKaya yo-yo list. What an epic game! It took me the loss of jack to remember what axe to face should be like, and it was fun seeing my opponent sweat it out trying to hit Butcher with IF and a wardog in combat. Sometimes the global/local meta leaves people in a false sense of security, safe in the knowledge that their lists can deal with the tournament Khador lists. To that end, I will be going into the local Steamroller Series (South West Series, United Kingdom) with two "random" Khador lists at 50 points. pButcher tier 4 fielding 2 Juggernaut and 2 Kodiak with 2 units of MOW, and possibly a pVlad/Strakhov based Conquest/carriage list. Hopefully the WGDS love pVlad, or Strakhov's Occultation.

The point of the post : The meta forces people to play in a certain style with certain lists. Break the mould aand break the meta.