What makes a good Man o War list?

[Gandalfrockman]

Ive been looking at the man o war units alot lately, but I keep hearing people say how bad they are. I know very little about them, as far as in game terms. Havent seen them used much.
Is there such a thing as a good man o war list?
If so how?
*** is up with the kovniks ua adjustment ability why would you need 4 units of Shockies or Demo Crew?
Why is everyone so convinced they suck?

[Saekyn]

You don't see many lists build around Man-o-War because:

1) They're expensive for what they do. Shocktroopers have high armor, but arm 21 when shield-walling is far from impenetrable, and they only get one attack each, despite that it's a strong attack. 9 points for 5 models. I use them sometimes myself, but just as an aside, if I have the points to spare. Demo Corps gets two attacks, but they've got lower armor, so they're essentially sitting ducks until they reach melee; it'd be a miracle if they weren't shot to death beforehand.

All three types of Man-O-War add up to 29 points for fifteen models. Is it so inefficient I'd never consider running it? Nah. But it's not really competitive, especially when you consider....

2) They're really, really slow. You have to run them to have them keep up with your army, and running makes Bombardiers and Shocktroopers lose out on benefits or abilities to keep themselves alive. They have reach, which is excellent for engaging quicker, but SPD 4 for the bulk of your army makes you a giant target for shooting and receiving a charge.

I've never personally run Man-O-War, so my ideas may be skewed, but this is usually what I see people complaining about/why I personally hypothesized it wouldn't be good beyond a "for funsies" format.

[Steamwitch]

eIrusk runs my mow army but i agree they do get shot up quite a bit. Look at eIrusks Spells and abilitys and there is no better to run them not even vlads simply because of speed issues but you do have alot of hitboxes and srmour to chew thru also we can repair them if they survive witch is an issue i see as they dont always tuff it out.

[Sinsation]

Is there someone on the forums who has done good competitively by working with MoW lists to take them to tournaments?

[Mercykiller]

I have, having won a tourney with an all-MOW list and placed highly in others in a very competitive meta; however they are frustrating to work with against skilled opponents. There is no doubt in my mind I could have had a much easier time placing and winning with nearly any other infantry. eIrusk is definitely the best caster for them, especially with the Mechanik UA, but the Butcher1 theme list works well too. The Vlads are decent, and I've never tried Strakhov, but he can speed them up the critical turn.

As much as I love how they look I'm often the first one to tell new players to start with WGI, Kayazay, etc. In the grand scheme of medium based models ours are the most overpriced (a single point off, but it's enough) with the least amount of out-of-warcaster support available. Which hurts.

[PG_Warsmith]

I have been playing a Karchev Tier 4 list lately and his MOW tier 2 bonus of an advance move is pretty awesome and gets them into the fight much sooner than I expected. The tier 3 bonus of a smoke template per Greylord unit is a great cover for that first round of shooting. I actually like his theme list a lot. I just got the Mechanik UA so I want to see how it goes repairing MOW during the battle.

[PG_battlemechanik]

I've used karchev T4 with MoW to moderate success locally as well, 2-1 in tourney and 11-1 overall. Physically bringing that much stuff (that has no overlap in other lists) to a non-local tourney is a bit of an issue though.

I don't see eIrusk being able to speed up 1 unit of them per turn (and not even increase their threat range) as being as useful as getting multiple units up the board quickly (any of the advance move tier lists) or actually giving them a decent threat range (strakhov, evlad).

[Ganso]

If you are willing to ignore his feat, Vlad_3 could be a good contender to run a Man O War army thanks to Dash, I'm not entirely convinced but I certainly think testing is worth it

[Fuchikoma]

My Butcher MoW Tier 4 list:
pButcher
- Juggy
- Kodiak
- Marauder
-Wardog

MoW Bombadiers FULL
MoW Demo Corps FULL
MoW Shock Trooper FULL
MoW Drakhun w/Dismount
MoW Kovnik
- Berserker
MoW Kovnik
- Berserker
Manhunter
Manhunter
Yuri the Axe

It has some REALLY bad matchups, but when you bring that much angry metal to the table, things get fun.

[Mercykiller]

I've used karchev T4 with MoW to moderate success locally as well, 2-1 in tourney and 11-1 overall. Physically bringing that much stuff (that has no overlap in other lists) to a non-local tourney is a bit of an issue though.

I don't see eIrusk being able to speed up 1 unit of them per turn (and not even increase their threat range) as being as useful as getting multiple units up the board quickly (any of the advance move tier lists) or actually giving them a decent threat range (strakhov, evlad).

Then you're missing the real reason he runs them better than anyone else: the ability to move through each other's bases. He's the only one that allows Shockies to take the charge and DC to hit from behind, and keeps them from tripping over their own feet while making them tough. And negating rough terrain. And giving them the charge if you time his feat right. And battlelust.

Yup, absolutely the worst guy to run them with

[somogyi]

this is what i run at 35 pts, granted i have never been to a big event but seem to so well in all the event i have been to.
The Butcher of Khardov
Berserker
War dog
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)

the idea is that the shock troopers form a 10 man wall of ARM 21 with 8 boxes each. after the enemy has put some holes in the wall the demo corp can walk/charge up and kill most of what is there. if there are any surviving shock troopers they can join in too. and butcher is no slouch. with the dog and iron flesh he gets up to DEF19 ARM 23, last week i dropped a Mauler in two swings with him. that is over 200 hit boxes, all 14 ARM or higher i think. this is also a tier two list that gives all MOW +2 SPD your first turn, making up a little for their SPD 4.

[Fuchikoma]

this is what i run at 35 pts, granted i have never been to a big event but seem to so well in all the event i have been to.
The Butcher of Khardov
Berserker
War dog
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)

the idea is that the shock troopers form a 10 man wall of ARM 21 with 8 boxes each. after the enemy has put some holes in the wall the demo corp can walk/charge up and kill most of what is there. if there are any surviving shock troopers they can join in too. and butcher is no slouch. with the dog and iron flesh he gets up to DEF19 ARM 23, last week i dropped a Mauler in two swings with him. that is over 200 hit boxes, all 14 ARM or higher i think. this is also a tier two list that gives all MOW +2 SPD your first turn, making up a little for their SPD 4.

This is a good list.

[Mercykiller]

Indeed at 35 points that list is too much armor to deal with generally. I still get tired of being out-maneuvered on scenarios with lists like that, but it does work.

[MathPasta]

Things that can slam/ Knockdown/ teleport are that lists worst nightmare.

[mostholycerebus]

I use them all the time, because they are my only other infantry unit. Tried them in pButchers tier. The move helps a litte, they can run 12" first turn. Typically though, they either get shot to death then before shieldwalling, or the opponent has enough movement to shift the contact zone so they become irrelevent. With 4" move they spend turns 2-6 trying to get somewhere usefull. Either way, a waste of points.

They really do well in two environments: static control points and bad ARM matchups. But, both of those are pretty random, and you can still lose to a good player.

I will probably drop them for IFP when I get them assembled. IFP bring some nice shieldwalled high ARM, reach, AND the speed to screws moving objectives and fast opponents.

MoW need mainly to be able to work at full effect after running, or a speed buff, or a points drop so you can saturate the field with them. I'd like to see a UA because a 6-man unit would work well, I could run three 2-man shield walled mini units. But the cost would probably just drive them deeper onto the shelf.

[PG_battlemechanik]

Then you're missing the real reason he runs them better than anyone else: the ability to move through each other's bases. He's the only one that allows Shockies to take the charge and DC to hit from behind, and keeps them from tripping over their own feet while making them tough. And negating rough terrain. And giving them the charge if you time his feat right. And battlelust.

Yup, absolutely the worst guy to run them with

I've played as and against eIrusk with MoW (not a lot of times, but its not like I'm a stranger to it). I still say speed is the number one killer, and he doesn't help them in that regard. Feating to stop stuff from charging the MoW doesn't mean that they will get the charge, threat range differences are still against them.

[Mercykiller]

Oh they won't get the charge, but with tough Shocktroopers and mortars behind them lobbing FFE shots you can absorb it and strike back through them with demos. And I have played the list a lot of times

[Wisible]

You don't see many lists build around Man-o-War because:
I've never personally run Man-O-War, so my ideas may be skewed, but this is usually what I see people complaining about/why I personally hypothesized it wouldn't be good beyond a "for funsies" format.

Well if it's on the internet then it gotta be true.

My MOW ST's do me very well. No they don't charge but that's also not the point. And BTW ARM 21 on infantry is ridiculous. I've held off and destroyed Ol' Rowdy and other jacks with them. Play something before you convince yourself it sucks.

[KhaosSpectyr]

Play something before you convince yourself it sucks.

words to live by
added that to my sig

[Gandalfrockman]

this is what i run at 35 pts, granted i have never been to a big event but seem to so well in all the event i have been to.
The Butcher of Khardov
Berserker
War dog
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)

the idea is that the shock troopers form a 10 man wall of ARM 21 with 8 boxes each. after the enemy has put some holes in the wall the demo corp can walk/charge up and kill most of what is there. if there are any surviving shock troopers they can join in too. and butcher is no slouch. with the dog and iron flesh he gets up to DEF19 ARM 23, last week i dropped a Mauler in two swings with him. that is over 200 hit boxes, all 14 ARM or higher i think. this is also a tier two list that gives all MOW +2 SPD your first turn, making up a little for their SPD 4.

Hmm what are your guys thoughts on this then:

The Butcher of Khardov
Conquest
War dog
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Kovnik

I have seen a couple of people use the Conquest as a blunt instrument with an escort of Man o War Shockies, and this seems like it might be a good way to do it.

Edit: Just had a thought, theres no reason I cant drop Creeping barrage templates on my own Shockies to force the opposition to take the pow 6 blast when they engage...

[Hoc Est Bellum]

I'm really warming to the MoWs. I tended to find that if you just run one unit, you hit a few problems; they can't keep up with your main force, mass fire will kill them, they rarely charge, ect.

Then I kind of thought of them as jacks for a while. Not 'MoW are our light jacks!' fluffthink, but actually thinking 'Each unit is a 40-box jack'. Men dying is like crippling weapon systems, and so on. Hell, we can even sort of repair those systems now!

I found that a lot of the problems with MoWs were damn similar to those of jacks; big, slow and heavy, but not so heavy that they don't die if focussed upon. With jacks, two common options are either picking one versatile elite jack and relying on infantry to do the rest, or spamming jacks so that rather than being the slow, clunky bit of your force trying to catch up, they're the main bulk that everything else works around.

Same goes for MoWs. Go big! One unit can be wiped out, but it's not as easy as everyone makes out. Two units are problematic. Three is getting tricky...

Something else I'm trying; after an eVlad feat turn on a Drakhun didn't finish the job, my opponent couldn't quite finish the dragoon off. 'DEF14 ARM22, and 10 boxes? Unfair!'. Next game; IF MoWST. DEF14, ARM21, 40 boxes. It wasn't unkillable, but it sure wasn't fun for him.

[Jake the Dog]

I honestly believe Man-o-War aren't bad. It is just that the meta couldn't handle High Def so their stock value for list building was up. Now that tools are popping out that handle High Def, High Def Infantry's value should go down and High Arm Infantry will see more play across the board.
Just my $0.02.

[unyuzyall]

I've seen huge bricks of MOWST run by pIrusk. It works pretty well if your opponent doesn't have lots of pathfinder. The big MOW brick can advance up the field, with PIrusk making his control area rough terrain, and then defensively feating on the turn that his brick will get charged by the pathfinding elements of the enemy army. Then the MOW brick just grinds up the opposing army in a big slog.

[Gandalfrockman]

I'm really warming to the MoWs. I tended to find that if you just run one unit, you hit a few problems; they can't keep up with your main force, mass fire will kill them, they rarely charge, ect.

Then I kind of thought of them as jacks for a while. Not 'MoW are our light jacks!' fluffthink, but actually thinking 'Each unit is a 40-box jack'. Men dying is like crippling weapon systems, and so on. Hell, we can even sort of repair those systems now!

I found that a lot of the problems with MoWs were damn similar to those of jacks; big, slow and heavy, but not so heavy that they don't die if focussed upon. With jacks, two common options are either picking one versatile elite jack and relying on infantry to do the rest, or spamming jacks so that rather than being the slow, clunky bit of your force trying to catch up, they're the main bulk that everything else works around.

Same goes for MoWs. Go big! One unit can be wiped out, but it's not as easy as everyone makes out. Two units are problematic. Three is getting tricky...

Something else I'm trying; after an eVlad feat turn on a Drakhun didn't finish the job, my opponent couldn't quite finish the dragoon off. 'DEF14 ARM22, and 10 boxes? Unfair!'. Next game; IF MoWST. DEF14, ARM21, 40 boxes. It wasn't unkillable, but it sure wasn't fun for him.

This makes a lot of sense to me, and it helps explain why Ive seen pretty effective man o war/conquest pairings a couple of times already; they move at the same base speed.
Is there a magic number of Man o War units where they become particularly effective, or at least optimal for point cost? Based on what Im reading so far it sounds like you need 3 or 4 full units of man o wars, at least two of which should be shockies for them to really pay off.

[Jake the Dog]

This makes a lot of sense to me, and it helps explain why Ive seen pretty effective man o war/conquest pairings a couple of times already; they move at the same base speed.
Is there a magic number of Man o War units where they become particularly effective, or at least optimal for point cost? Based on what Im reading so far it sounds like you need 3 or 4 full units of man o wars, at least two of which should be shockies for them to really pay off.

I bet the Irusk2 NQ Tier might be one of the Best Contenders to run that.
He can run Conquest, Beast 09, Behemoth, Black Ivan, and Torch. Heh needs 2 Mechanik Units, and both Help MoW (with UA) and Conquest. The Gun Carriage should provide another model to stand in from of the Conquest.

[John of Arc]

I haven't tried much in the way of Man o War, but I do loves me some Demo Corps. They're the proper mix of offense and defense that makes for a powerful second line which won't fold in half like Stormblades and weapon masters tend to. However, said weapon masters will eat them alive, so don't send them after those :P Most anti-infantry tech is pretty ineffective against them, and a waste if it's not being used on my single wound infantry. They're more vulnerable to anti-jack shooting, but anything aiming for them isn't being shot at my warjacks, which is a good thing. I usually use them to wreck jacks, but MAT 7 is good enough to go for casters if you can give them any help. Speed 4 isn't a big deal when they can run every turn and you're using them as a second wave anyway. They've replaced Doom Reavers as the honor guard in my pVlad lists, and I use them with some of our other casters to great effect as well.

I don't think I'd like them as my only unit, though. They are too slow to be your front line, and they're not good at receiving charges (Shocktroopers are, but they're even worse at the front part of being the front line). They need the extra turn to get into position, and their durability only shines when they're not receiving the brunt of your enemy's attacks. I enjoy my one unit of Demo Corps, but I'm not tempted to run more than that.

[Sinsation]

And giving them the charge if you time his feat right.

More than many other things, this seems like a huge benefit for Irusk 2, in contrast to Vlad 2 giving a speed bonus to a few with the feat and getting in the first hit that way. With the various denial feats (Irusk 2, Zerkova, Old Witch), are those usually enough to turn the tide in your experiences, mercykiller and others?

[ScottEBJJ]

I honestly believe Man-o-War aren't bad. It is just that the meta couldn't handle High Def so their stock value for list building was up. Now that tools are popping out that handle High Def, High Def Infantry's value should go down and High Arm Infantry will see more play across the board.
Just my $0.02.

As I've said a hundred times on this forum, the tools to deal with high defense infantry are not new. Many of the best answers have been around for all of MK2. Maybe 1 faction (Skorne) has actually gotten better in that arena of the game, but that's only going from no chance to a slight chance.

Maybe you are just seeing them, but they've been there. Khador players, particularly higher level tournament players, have already been dealing with lists that can remove their infantry for a long time now. And yet are still seeing success with such lists utilizing such infantry.

The meta has not changed in the way you are suggesting. It was already there.

[Tossy]

The meta has not changed in the way you are suggesting. It was already there.

And I am in the camp where the colossals won't change our current gameplan too much. I am honestly getting frustrated with all the noise... Mind you I have been around here long enough when people cried foul at the storm strider and every other piece of kit that has come out. I don't know why this one urks me so much

[Marth]

A magic number for MoW? The more, the merrier. ChainGun observed that if you take MoW en masse, their apparent flaws become less of a deal.

You could use a MoW list (I'd go with the heavy armour battalion Tier) in a multi-list format to manhandle your opponent's list choices. Just try to make sure you do so in a scenario that favours MoW (Process of Elimination and Restoration come to mind).

[MathPasta]

And I am in the camp where the colossals won't change our current gameplan too much. I am honestly getting frustrated with all the noise... Mind you I have been around here long enough when people cried foul at the storm strider and every other piece of kit that has come out. I don't know why this one urks me so much

Right behind you mate. Seriously, a couple of toughtoys isnt going to change much.

[Gandalfrockman]

Right behind you mate. Seriously, a couple of toughtoys isnt going to change much.

I pretty much agree on this, I think some local metas are shifting away from high def infantry a little. But I dont think it has much to do with the new releases and I dont think "THE META" is actually changing that dramatically.

[Michael]

Echoing what has been said a few times already:

What makes a good Man-O-War list is:

more Man-O-War.

Trust me. I have a hefty MoW collection (38 ? models, and soon to grow) and I do play them regularly.

Taking out one unit of Shield-Walled Shocktroopers is (relatively) easy. Taking out three units, plus some Demo Corps, plus a Kovnik, plus a Drakhun, is very, very hard.

(I know, I know; "Who is this random guy proclaiming these things? He's just some random dude on the forums! We have no proof!" You are correct. I'm not especially well-known and I'm only an occasional and negligible participant in discussions. (But, hey, I've been playing for six years, so that might be worth something.) One of these days, I really will get around to taking some pics of the wall of Man-o-War I sometimes love to field. )

[athelu]

This is the MOW list I run:
eIrusk
Spriggan (bonded)
5 MOW Shocktroopers
3 MOW Bombardiers
3 MOW Demolition Corps
MOW Drakhuun (no dismount)

The bombardiers and Drakhuun are arguably the worst things in the list. I only keep the Bombardiers there to take care of High DEF infantry. The Drakhuun (if he survives) I send in with battle lust for 5-dice charges. The list plays as a tight packed brick. I will send out a wave of MOW at a time to eat things - normally with battlelust on them. eIrusk lets them ignore each other for LOS and movement - very handy with so many medium bases. Keeping eIrusk in in range gives them all Tough which is horribly annoying as well. Tactical superiority allows you to charge and destroy a warnoun or unit, then move forward or back and consolidate or block charge lanes. The spriggan pretty much is a screen for eIrusk and is sent in to clean up any stragglers or shine a light on stealthy solos/units. The list can dish out a ton of damage but they do have a bit of trouble holding objectives since you want everything to stick together.

[sourclams]

For those who are reporting success with MoW builds, how do you win in scenario missions? Especially with 1-2 central objectives and terrain? Your first two turns seem completely scripted: Run forwards 8", then run forwards 8" again.

pDenny, eDenny, pHaley, eHaley stop the army in its tracks, and even Harby/Old Witch can really put a hurt on the lists (MoW have little choice beyond continuing to plod forward; faster infantry can just stay put a turn).

I tried to start out with pButcher+MoW spam, and it was terrible once we began using objectives. I don't really see how the meta shift away from high-Def necessarily helps mass-MoW actually be better since their issues with taking the center and dealing with Control matchups remain.

[MathPasta]

I pretty much agree on this, I think some local metas are shifting away from high def infantry a little. But I dont think it has much to do with the new releases and I dont think "THE META" is actually changing that dramatically.

For example the Stormwall has no new abilities at all. Its just a more convenient package. Its a realy good package, but its nothing "THE META" changing.

Plus it is incredibly expensive.

I tried to start out with pButcher+MoW spam, and it was terrible once we began using objectives. I don't really see how the meta shift away from high-Def necessarily helps mass-MoW actually be better since their issues with taking the center and dealing with Control matchups remain.

Another good Point.

[athelu]

for me, my drakhuun and my warjack will contest or take objectives. Normally the MOW in the middle of the board is enough of a threat to keep focus there. eIrusk can give you a window for moving through difficult terrain, and his energizer will give himself and his jacks a movement boost. Tactictal superiority again gives a single unit additional needed movement.

Even though it is not really tier, I have found eIrusk to really shine with MOW.

[Michael]

For those who are reporting success with MoW builds, how do you win in scenario missions? Especially with 1-2 central objectives and terrain? Your first two turns seem completely scripted: Run forwards 8", then run forwards 8" again.

That is mostly true. If you're running lots of MoW, you need to really embrace the Khador hammer-and-anvil approach. Draw your opponent's attention away from the MoW by employing our lovely distraction models such as Yuri, Doom Reavers, Widowmakers, and similar models. Try to split his forces so your opponent cannot concentrate on the MoW without risking some shrieking Weaponmaster madmen smashing into his forces from behind.

Keep some "surgical strike" models there to complement your "wall of iron" models.

pDenny, eDenny, pHaley, eHaley stop the army in its tracks, and even Harby/Old Witch can really put a hurt on the lists (MoW have little choice beyond continuing to plod forward; faster infantry can just stay put a turn).

Very true. I never suggested that MoW don't have some terrible matchups. MoW absolutely suffer under the models you mentioned -- but then again, so do most other things. (Kayazy can't minifeat and charge Haley through Temporal Barrier, or do anything whatsoever during Field of Talons, after all.)

But, by the same token, MoW have some matchups that are lopsided in their favor. Things geared toward high-def low-arm can't generally scratch Shocktroopers. A couple of units of Shocktroopers can really hold their own against the standard tricked-out Sea Dog army. They'll really break your opponent's momentum. Shocktroopers can hold points and objectives rather well, too. (Demo Corp can do some amazing things against warbeasts.)

I tried to start out with pButcher+MoW spam, and it was terrible once we began using objectives. I don't really see how the meta shift away from high-Def necessarily helps mass-MoW actually be better since their issues with taking the center and dealing with Control matchups remain.

It all depends on exactly your scenario, how your terrain is laid out, and how you provide threat saturation in your army, like I mentioned in my first point. I wouldn't play a 100% MoW army in anything but a completely for-fun game. I would, however, play an 80% MoW army most any time, provided I bring the support pieces that complement them.

[sourclams]

Honestly, I still "don't get it"; the claim that an all-MoW army is bad, but an 80% MoW army is playable/quasi-competitive. I for one perceive very little functional difference between 20 MoWs and 15 MoWs plus Doom Reavers. The 'fast' elements of the army (Yuri, Fenris, Doomies) are easily killed in isolation, or held back by the slow MoW advance. If this army is bad against one of the most competitive warcasters in each of the Big 4, but does okay against an incredibly rare niche army like Sea Dogs (and I posit that the Sea Dogs can still be a crippling tarpit).

And I'm not just talking out of my theorymachine playbook; I started the game with pButch, 10 STs and 5 Demos plus Jacks at 35, and what became quickly apparent was that if trees were on the table, I would lose.

[athelu]

I have won all of my games with my MOW army - but have only played 6 games with them so far. It is a challenge to play - not a win button. I think it really comes down to caster support. The MOW on their own are sub-par. I play them because I love the models, and have found a caster that allows them to get things done. I cannot say that I have played against the toughest tournament lists with them, but they have done better than I expected them to.