What makes a good Man o War list?

[Marth]

Then what would be the necessary change? SPD 5 on the whole lot of them?

[Michael]

Honestly, I still "don't get it"; ... (words and things) ...

(I know; I didn't mention this before, but hey, it happens.) Bring some guns. Your opponent will not enjoy round after round of Mortar Crew or Destroyer/Behemoth fire dropping onto their lines. They will be forced to engage your MoW.

[HRM]

If Man O' Wars are "supposed to be our light warjacks" - debatable, I know - I always thought it would be neat to let them benefit from battlegroup spells/effects.

[sourclams]

(I know; I didn't mention this before, but hey, it happens.) Bring some guns. Your opponent will not enjoy round after round of Mortar Crew or Destroyer/Behemoth fire dropping onto their lines. They will be forced to engage your MoW.

Here's an example list from this thread:

The Butcher of Khardov
Berserker
War dog
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)

The next 2 posts both say basically 'this is a good/competitive list'. I don't see how that's possible; no ranged threat, no control, no maneuver. It's a Big Rock list that is likely to lose to other, more maneuverable Big Rock lists (pMorg Titan herd, Rasheth T4, Harby T4 as examples).

Then the thread kinda/sorta evolves into 'take 80% MoW plus fast stuff' like Yuri/Fenris/Doomies. Okay, understandable, but the only guy who could run this with any real effect would be eIrusk thanks to ignoring own models. Otherwise the fast elements get shot up early and your slow brick can be taken apart piecemeal. So now we ultimately need a combined arms approach with a shooting base (Behemoth/Mortar crew - 16 pts), fast flankers (Fenris, Doomies - 11+ points), and since now we're just making a list there's probably one of the normal merc support solos in there like Eiryss, Gorman, A&H for, basically, 30 points of the 'MoW Army' list that are not MoWs. And the list still doesn't seem that great.

In trying to build the MoW army, doesn't this basically say that we can't build a good MoW army? That's the experience I had, so I'm not surprised at the results, but the tone in this thread suggests otherwise.

[mcdermott]

Ebutcher t4 is a list that can win some tourneys and it also lacks a lot of what you list up there.

It's an attrition list though. The +2 speed boost for the tier bonus gets your MOW into the game a lot faster, and despite the "OMG MOW are 2 damn fragile" theorymachine, taken in bulk they prove to be a much bigger problem to get rid of than people generally like to admit. MOW of any stripe + fury are a valid threat to most every jack/warbeast. Pbutchers feat turn makes it even worse. Yeah they have their vulnerabilities but if someone tries to move back and shoot, push up in shield wall and win by scenario. It isn't exactly a take all comers list, but in multi list tournaments (thats most of them yes?) You're going to eventually run into a matchup that this list has good game against.

[MathPasta]

eButchers tier has price reduced doom reavers. It gets shut down hard by tough gunlines but otherwise it dominates through shear weaponmaster awesomeness.

MOW are slow. In huge bricks, its no longer about killing them all. You don't need to. Just slow them down and they essentially can't do anything. Slams are a great attack to use against them as it ruins everything like Bowling pins. And Units of weaponmaster or attacks of 15+ just totally ruin their day.

[Gandalfrockman]

Here's an example list from this thread:

The Butcher of Khardov
Berserker
War dog
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)

The next 2 posts both say basically 'this is a good/competitive list'. I don't see how that's possible; no ranged threat, no control, no maneuver. It's a Big Rock list that is likely to lose to other, more maneuverable Big Rock lists (pMorg Titan herd, Rasheth T4, Harby T4 as examples).

Then the thread kinda/sorta evolves into 'take 80% MoW plus fast stuff' like Yuri/Fenris/Doomies. Okay, understandable, but the only guy who could run this with any real effect would be eIrusk thanks to ignoring own models. Otherwise the fast elements get shot up early and your slow brick can be taken apart piecemeal. So now we ultimately need a combined arms approach with a shooting base (Behemoth/Mortar crew - 16 pts), fast flankers (Fenris, Doomies - 11+ points), and since now we're just making a list there's probably one of the normal merc support solos in there like Eiryss, Gorman, A&H for, basically, 30 points of the 'MoW Army' list that are not MoWs. And the list still doesn't seem that great.

In trying to build the MoW army, doesn't this basically say that we can't build a good MoW army? That's the experience I had, so I'm not surprised at the results, but the tone in this thread suggests otherwise.

That specific list is likely fast enough and enough boxes, that at 35 points its going to be pretty hard to stop

I don't think anyone suggested bringing 27 points of diversionary forces, @ 35 points a Drakhun for flanking and a mortar-crew/widowmaker marksman is prolly enough.
I'm thinking conquest will handle all the aoe shootiness you need in a 50 point list. then you just need something to keep your opponent from throwing EVERYTHING at your mow, Drakhun OR fenris, and maybe Widow makers?

Based on what I'm reading it sounds like you want somewhere from 13 to 20 MOW models for them to start becoming effective. I poked around here and elsewhere, and every Man o War list thats considered "Good" or better contains the Following:
Minimum of 12 Man o Wars models, and no more than 25.
Minimum of 2 units of Shockies.
Minimum of 3 models of Demo Crew.
Some Way of bosting movement, adding movement or allowing some serious movement shenanigans.
Typically though not always, its a single warjack list,the warjack is usually ranged.
Man-O-War Kovnik almost never gets used.
There is usually something to flank with (Drakuhn/Fenris/Yuri&friends/Great-Bears)

They are more often 35, than 50 point lists, but 35 point games are practically unheard of in my local meta short of people who are just starting out, so that wont be applied to my list.

[scout's honor]

I poked around here and elsewhere, and every Man o War list thats considered "Good" or better contains the Following:
Minimum of 12 Man o Wars models, and no more than 25...

Really? I don't play MoW often but my experience says to either keep the MoW minimal (usually with DC in that case), like a single full unit or two min ones, or to go as MoW heavy as possible and choose the few other, non-MoW models in the list specifically to support the MoW.

[Gandalfrockman]

Really? I don't play MoW often but my experience says to either keep the MoW minimal (usually with DC in that case), like a single full unit or two min ones, or to go as MoW heavy as possible and choose the few other, non-MoW models in the list specifically to support the MoW.

Looking at it again 25 is likely as many man o war as anyone CAN bring in a 50 point game... thats 45 points all by itself with butchers tier list you can likely squeeze in another three models..but thats propably it.

Edit: I did the math.... This is the most Man o War units possible as far as I can tell, but this propably wouldnt be a good list... or much fun to play come to that:

The Butcher of Khardov
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 2 Grunts)
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Kovnik

Thats 29 in 50 point list, your jack points are completely wasted, and theres no wardog, and it only works with pButcher. The kovnik is only worth so you can bring another unit of reduced cost shockies.

[whats82]

A good MoW list is one that doesn't have Mow in it. Except maybe the Drakhun, he's cool.

[Aylw]

Thats 29 in 50 point list, your jack points are completely wasted, and theres no wardog, and it only works with pButcher. The kovnik is only worth so you can bring another unit of reduced cost shockies.

Why don't you put in a berserker? It's free.

[MathPasta]

Lets be a little bit more constructive then that. I find MOWs kinda on the eh side of bad, But they still have uses.....

[Michael]

Lemme dig up something I think I ran with success a few times...

The core was something like:

Butcher
Berserker x3 12
War Dog 1
MoW ST (min) 5
MoW ST (full) 8
Widowmakers 4
Drakhun + dismount 5
Yuri 3
Widowmaker Marksman 2
----
40 points, season last 10 points to taste. I'd probably throw a Destroyer in there, or a unit of Demo Corps + something else, or something. It looks like I didn't write down the full list.

But, hey, give it a shot. I had fun with it.

[Mercykiller]

eIrusk with dual mortars and two lines of shocktroops backed up by demo corp. It's a slow army, usually moving one turn at a run, and then forcing the enemy to come to you or face dual FFE-bouncing mortars. I find that to be the best MOW list as the mortars can serve as your flanking force by blasting their faster elements away. It also forces your opponent to commit faster than he'd like, or face getting hailed on. the Butcher1 list of MOW spam works by oversaturation; there is no gooey center to the army, and you keep IF on Butcher. It's grindtastic. In scenarios with split objectives though MOW will always do worse by their very nature. But the eIrusk list has led me to victory many times, my opponents just don't really like it. The addition of a Gun Carriage against non-pathfinder armies makes it funnier.

In Khador we flank with our mortar shells.