Will Khador evolve?

[Seventhprophet]

Do you think Khador is heading in a particular direction? Do you think we will keep getting more of the same in different configurations? Will the "variety" in Khador come from future casters, jacks, solos or units? What do you think?

[Steamwitch]

after all the tricks i saw for other factions colosals and what we got. I dont know in all honesty. I know what we do/and what we are precived to do are like a coins faces. I would like to see us change into what we are advertized to be high arm. Arm 20 is nicelocal because we do nothing to get it and other factions get it with work but the fact we have a point or two of focus less just means that they are an upkeep away from being highter arm and faster. I think that if we were arm 23 locally we would fare better. In that arena. Im one of the few and proud who accept speed 4 but will take a buff but not lament no reach. I think khador just needs a hug as a faction. We do well as is and we have had our time in the sun and have to fight in the shade of the colosals a bit but pp i have faith in and hope the book after colosals will give us the push we need/want. Pp admits that they dont do particular releases due to faction populairity. Aka mercs not haveing a BE.

[Steamwitch]

but thats a different thread. But i really do like mow and feild them all the time. But they do need some help and pp makes a balanced game (debateable i know but you get my point) once we see another release i will judge pp then till then i will wait for my decimator. Thats also another thread in short: rawr.

[OMM_Lukav]

The only faction to truly evolve with Colossal was the Mercs. They now have a warcaster who makes the Rhul more competitive, but honestly their biggest evolution came with their colossal. They now have a tool they never had before that helps address a major issue in their lists...that being a high damage attack.

Khador will always be Khador. Arm 20 and Speed 4. Heavy hitting infantry and no arc nodes. I don't see that changing. What i do see evolving is the player base. We will lose people who don't want to accept that our easy button has been removed and now we have to start playing smarter and more jack/multi-wound centric.

Colossal is the culling. Those who make it through will become excellent and competitive players. The rest will probably switch to a easier faction.

[MathPasta]

I see very little change across the horizon. The problem with playing a faction whos shtick is "We have good stats and very little special abilities" is that it makes it hard to come up with anything new to the faction.

I also see very little change in the heavy infantry meta. Maybe opposite, taking even MORE infantry.

[OrsusSmash]

Do you think Khador is heading in a particular direction? Do you think we will keep getting more of the same in different configurations? Will the "variety" in Khador come from future casters, jacks, solos or units? What do you think?

Short answer: Yes, absolutely. Khador has a lot of room to grow, and PP has plenty of design space to do so, which leaves me very excited for future releases.

Longer answer: I've played Khador since the dark, dark days of Mk. 1, and I've watched the army really grow from it's initial set up (really strong melee, high durability,) into it's current incarnation (very strong mixed arms approach, with consistent attrition factors.)

Instead of feeding into the "KHADOR SMASH, IRON WALL" ideal, PP has given us some really amazing shooting options and tricksy shooting options. We also have some really nice ARM attrition models (Shocktroopers, clamjacks,) and we have plenty of hard hitting models that can chew through high enemy ARM. I never feel like I don't have a solution to a particular problem, which is really awesome considering some factions run into a lot of issues against specific mechanics (eg. Retribution vs. massed Stealth.)

Our faction has grown in ways that open up new list builds and options, and it looks like that trend will continue in the future (the Greylord Outriders and Iron Fang Kovnik have a lot of potential.)

[scout's honor]

I hardly ever saw Pikemen. Now I see them regularly. I hardly ever saw Greylords. Now they seem to pop up everywhere. I used to see Eiryss all the time, now she's possibly more often than not missing from Khador lists I see. The war dog was in every list with a point left over and in most of the others regardless, now Sylys easily sees play half again as often as Barky does.

So change? Evolution? Most definitely. Where will it come from? Anything and everything.

[Seventhprophet]

Short answer: Yes, absolutely. Khador has a lot of room to grow, and PP has plenty of design space to do so, which leaves me very excited for future releases.

Longer answer: I've played Khador since the dark, dark days of Mk. 1, and I've watched the army really grow from it's initial set up (really strong melee, high durability,) into it's current incarnation (very strong mixed arms approach, with consistent attrition factors.)

Instead of feeding into the "KHADOR SMASH, IRON WALL" ideal, PP has given us some really amazing shooting options and tricksy shooting options. We also have some really nice ARM attrition models (Shocktroopers, clamjacks,) and we have plenty of hard hitting models that can chew through high enemy ARM. I never feel like I don't have a solution to a particular problem, which is really awesome considering some factions run into a lot of issues against specific mechanics (eg. Retribution vs. massed Stealth.)

Our faction has grown in ways that open up new list builds and options, and it looks like that trend will continue in the future (the Greylord Outriders and Iron Fang Kovnik have a lot of potential.)

This is a good answer I like seeing the progress.

[Lanz]

Has any faction really changed much in this regard? Of all the factions I play, I think the only significant growth I've seen is Legion, which has grown to accommodate infantry-heavy lists and has anti-upkeep tools now. Nothing else, as far as I'm aware, has seen much evolution over the last few releases. I suppose you could call the Stormwall and Stormstrider evolutionary points for Cygnar, but that's less straight forwards, as everyone has colossals now, and the stormwall is still too new to see if it lives up to the hype in a serious environment.

[Peg leg Pete]

i've only been playing for a year, so my opinion doesn't really count for much compared to the old timers.

it seems to me that in some ways we are evolving, and in others we are not. specifically, i see our human troops becoming more adaptable and tricky. The eliminators are a good example of this. they are small, fast, hard to hit, and hard to slow down. i don't think that we have anything else that has the freedome of movement that they have. the greylord light cav that is coming...well, its all speculation at this point, but it appears that they will be another new wrinkle.

i think that our jaks are very good, but incredibly predictable. ivan shook things up a bit because of his improved stat lines, dodge, and bulldoze. i think i'm one of the few that likes conquest, but he seems very simple compared to the other colossals. he hits like two mac trucks chained together and used like a nunchuck, but he doesn't bring much else to the table.

i really do like our jacks, but i sort of wish that our options were slightly more varied than they are. it feels like our jacks mostly come in three flavors: fist, axe, bombard cannon. the clams bring heavy armor on, but the demolisher is still a version of bombard cannons, and the devastator is still fists.

[x3tsniper]

I know I haven't been around here that long, but it seems like the really new players seem to have a huge issue with the faction in general. I see all these joined 2012 ball busting on the "meta". I know I am occasionally negative, but khador is still a great faction to play at any tournament. I don't understand it.

[PG_Draxos]

What? Khador is evolving!

Khador has evolved into Mother Russia!!

Okay jokes aside I do feel that there is evidence of evolution in Khador. For example Harkivech added a new playstyle to Khador, admitidly many think he isn't good, but he did add something. The same goes for Torch and Vlad3

[PG_LunarSol]

The main problem with our jacks is that our statlines don't really allow for much variety. RAT 4 is a pretty big issue and as long as that's on the card, a jack that isn't firing AOEs is going to do a lot of nothing for too much of the game to reliably hit the field. Likewise, I think the our second chassis has enormous potential, but the severity of the armor drop makes it difficult to design an interesting jack around. ARM 17 is just way too low with no means of buffing ARM, creating the same scenario that makes it hard to design unique ranged jacks for the faction: too many turns where it doesn't get to affect the field. Personally, I'd rather see them be something like 19/23 or so. At the very least, they shouldn't be so pillow fisted when they do open up.

In fairness, there's not a ton of variety across the entire game when it comes to jack melee. That's part of the reason Reach is such a big deal; its simply one of the few melee attributes that has a considerable effect on combat beyond whether or not the power is more or less than 17. When it comes to melee, having a reach weapon with P&S 18 or higher is pretty much the pinnacle of jack potential, regardless of faction. To make really different jacks, we need different guns, but that's going to forever be a challenge as long as we're sticking to RAT 4.

[Esper]

I feel that Khador has somehow morphed into the "blast damage" faction. Recent releases from Bombadiers, to Conquest, the Demolisher, Black Ivan, the Gun Carriage, and even Harkevich to some extent all focus on spamming blast damage AOEs.

[PG_Draxos]

@LunarSol Have you considered a new chasis type?

I feel that Khador has somehow morphed into the "blast damage" faction. Recent releases from Bombadiers, to Conquest, the Demolisher, Black Ivan, the Gun Carriage, and even Harkevich to some extent all focus on spamming blast damage AOEs.

Have you seen PoM? They are the AOE faction, we are second.

[x3tsniper]

I feel that Khador has somehow morphed into the "blast damage" faction. Recent releases from Bombadiers, to Conquest, the Demolisher, Black Ivan, the Gun Carriage, and even Harkevich to some extent all focus on spamming blast damage AOEs.

This.

PoM doesn't have as many models dedicated to AoE blast damage as we do. They also use their blast damage to set stuff on fire, which they generally care about more than blast damage.
I am pretty certain we are close to at least a third more on the number of models that can actually throw out blast damage.

Redeemer
Vanquisher
Deliverers
Deliverer Sunburst Crew
Holy Zealots
Judicator

Bersker(exploding if you want to count it)
Drago(same as above)
Destroyer
Devastator
Spriggan(Grenade Launcher)
Behemoth
Bombardiers
WGI Rocketeers
Mortar Crew
Markov(lance drops it)
Demolisher
Black Ivan
Gun Carriage
Conquest

Even discounting spriggan, berserker and drago, who probably won't see the blast damage, we have almost double the models that do blast damage effects. This isn't counting casters with it or that help it out for either side.
Markov has the highest blast damage in the game that doesn't require b2b if I recall correctly, while Devastator has the highest in the game.

[PG_LunarSol]

@LunarSol Have you considered a new chasis type?

That's one way to go about it, but I'd like to see the SPD 4, DEF 10, ARM 20 style work too. For some reason we seem a little more stuck on our stat line and it needs to vary a bit to give us more options. The Decimator is a great Jack design, being new, different, but undeniably Khador. It just needed to be 5/5 or 5/6 rather than our usual 6/4 to properly use it's abilities.

[PG_Draxos]

Gaint well done comparision

I do agree that we have more models that do blast but I feel that Blast damage is built in a core funtion of PoM much more than it is for Khador.

[x3tsniper]

I do agree that we have more models that do blast but I feel that Blast damage is built in a core funtion of PoM much more than it is for Khador.

You should elaborate sir.
I brought my friend in on this conversation:
TrentDod: the only time I ever see menoth using blast is with the redeemer, or the vanquisher to set something on fire, which isn't really associated with the blast. I second this, and I am sure we will see the Judicator fielded, to the same effect.

[profparm]

I picked this faction because of its resemblance to Russia.

Yeah, sure, there is the whole "axe to face" and "magic isn't strength; STRENGTH is strength" aspect of it, but it clearly has evolved beyond that long before I started playing, and is in the "We will know and master everything and exert our power over the world!" phase of thinking.

Before long, the Khador economy will inevitably collapse and it will be seen in retrospect that we were never as big of a threat to Cygnar as everyone thought. Hopefully we still have another 50-100 years before we get to that stage.

[PG_Draxos]

Great, now I have to write something with actual purpose to it. Thanks Sniper

In almost every PoM list that I see there is some way to creat blast damage. A vanquiser, Redeemer, Deliverers ect. I kinda look at this, and at the fact that many of these models are as old as Prime, as a sign that they are key to how the faction works. Also you have to consider how the faction itself works with these models. Things like the choir and the vassal make the redeemer and vanquisher so much more deadly that it isn't funny to face.

Meanwhile in Khador the most you will see for blast damage is the Behemoth and the Mortar with the occasional Black Ivan, who is sometimes taken for the def rather than gun. Also these models were slowly added to the faction and some of them don't really add anything new to the faction, like the Demonlisher vs the Devastator. I would also like to point out how Khador doesn't really support our blast damage guys. We don't have artilerist (an ability that would redifine Khador and destroy my arguement) or anything else that helps increase the effectivness of our guys with the exception of FFE on eIrusk.

[x3tsniper]

I guess it must be that I never see deliverers at tournaments or even on the table. We only see redeemers with 2 casters. Which means it is the rng 10 vanquisher, who I don't worry to terribly much about.

My last game I saw a redeemer on the table, my Drakhun ran 14" to tie him up for a turn. and then the rest of my army was already there.

[PG_Draxos]

I feel that may be a meta thing.

However you didn't disprove my point

[Esper]

I would also like to point out how Khador doesn't really support our blast damage guys. We don't have artilerist (an ability that would redifine Khador and destroy my arguement) or anything else that helps increase the effectivness of our guys with the exception of FFE on eIrusk.

I somewhat agree with this part, which is why I think Khador has morphed into it. Blast damage definitely wasn't our "thing" in the beginning, but it's what we've been given in recent releases. I also agree that while we don't have specialized tools to buff blast damage we do have general ones like signs and portents, hand of fate, broadsides, and feats like Butcher1. We now also have two models with Girded, to make our own models immune to getting hit by our own aoe's.

[x3tsniper]

I somewhat agree with this part, which is why I think Khador has morphed into it. Blast damage definitely wasn't our "thing" in the beginning, but it's what we've been given in recent releases. I also agree that while we don't have specialized tools to buff blast damage we do have general ones like signs and portents, hand of fate, broadsides, and feats like Butcher1. We now also have two models with Girded, to make our own models immune to getting hit by our own aoe's.

I thought we had one model through the demolisher. What model have I been missing that does it? Oo I feel dumb all the sudden.

[Esper]

Ah, you're right. For some reason, I thought the Khador MOW mechanik had it, but he has lash, not girded.

[x3tsniper]

>< 24 characters

[Blarg D Impaler]

Many factions have an "element" associated to it: Cygnar has electricity, Protectorate has fire, Cryx has death. Trolls have "That Scottish Thang" going with kilts. (They don't wear woad face paint, their whole body is blue!)

Khador has Boom. More Boom is good. When you boom an individual you might boom his friends also.

One other comment before I blather: Khador didn't get the Kayazy Eliminators, the mercenaries got their version of a Manhunter / Allegiant of the Order of the Fist / Gun Mage Captain Adept / Stalker / Mage Hunter Assassin / Skinner / Reeve Hunter / Blood Runner Master Tormentor / Strider Deathstalker / or Croak Hunter. Instead of a solo they got a two person unit and Khador is lucky enough to use it also. I haven't flaoted by the merc area for a long time - do they realize that they got the Eliminators also?

Khador has evolved from "axe to face" into what we would recognize as an actual military force with a diverse mix of troops and equipment. The really good Khador player is the person who understands military tactics and can apply them. As far as I am concerned Khador doesn't have any bad units, only ones that are more specialized for certain missions and less general-purpose kill-filled.

I think what you are going to see for Khador is more low-level diversification of troops and warjacks to fulfill certain needs.

PP has already hinted that Iron Fangs with axes are going to come - they will be infantry hackers while the uhlans will be there to take on hard to kill stuff and the pikemen are somewhere in between. And when the axe guys come out is when you are going to see an Iron Fang warcaster with an all-Iron Fang theme army.

If there were another Winter Guard unit to come out it would probably be "mountain troops" with some sort of melee-centric bent to them.

I'd like to see what they have planned for additional Assault Kommando fun. The AK are obviously trench stormers and a direct reaction to Trenchers. While a lot of the gamers here want something "so they'll suck less" I think PP might stick to their guns, keep up the theme, and come up with some support specialists. Maybe a jack marshall with the drive to make the jack make an extra advance. Maybe a weapon team to provide mobile fire support. Maybe a unit that would act like Cygnar's Rangers.

[Havock]

@LunarSol Have you considered a new chasis type?



Have you seen PoM? They are the AOE faction, we are second.

We are the combined arms faction, slightly opposite from cygnar. Melee/Shooty versus Shooty/Melee.

I just do Melee/Melee and hope for the best

[Khador247]

I see the post-Colossals world being pretty uncomfortable for a lot of our players. If you've been rolling with one jack and a bunch of single wound infantry then this is probably going to be a tough time for you. AOEs and lightning are going to make things difficult for the likes of WGI, Kayazy and Nyss. High DEF has been king for our faction but I think the shift is on to high ARM and hitting power. Fortunately we have these things.

I just do Melee/Melee and hope for the best

I like your style. :-)

[ScottEBJJ]

I see the post-Colossals world being pretty uncomfortable for a lot of our players. If you've been rolling with one jack and a bunch of single wound infantry then this is probably going to be a tough time for you. AOEs and lightning are going to make things difficult for the likes of WGI, Kayazy and Nyss. High DEF has been king for our faction but I think the shift is on to high ARM and hitting power. Fortunately we have these things.


I like your style. :-)

None of those things are new though. All of the Colossal have decent to great anti-infantry abilities, but nothing already not available for that price tag.

Have players really been giving you guys such blatant free passes by not already including the just as potent anti-infantry options available for alot of MK2? The new anti-infantry meta is not new to me, and I'd venture to say alot of tournament frequenting Khador players. I've already had to deal with the fact that my infantry is not always unkillable and at times is super dead. And despite that, those same lists are still effective.

It is mind boggling to keep seeing the idea that anti-infantry options are just now appearing,

[Tossy]

None of those things are new though. All of the Colossal have decent to great anti-infantry abilities, but nothing already not available for that price tag.

Have players really been giving you guys such blatant free passes by not already including the just as potent anti-infantry options available for alot of MK2? The new anti-infantry meta is not new to me, and I'd venture to say alot of tournament frequenting Khador players. I've already had to deal with the fact that my infantry is not always unkillable and at times is super dead. And despite that, those same lists are still effective.

It is mind boggling to keep seeing the idea that anti-infantry options are just now appearing,

Seconded, it is truly baffling

[scout's honor]

It is mind boggling to keep seeing the idea that anti-infantry options are just now appearing,

Well, the Stormwall is nothing new in that regard - Cygnar was shredding infantry long before and in much the same way when using Nemo/Stormnouns - and neither is the Minuteman for similar reasons, but these models do allow Cygnar players to retain their anti-infantry capabilities while at the same time gaining access to a bit more oomph. I'm pretty sure like arguments can be found for other factions (the Sons of Bragg with their sprays seem to bring functionality Trollbloods had very little access to though). The point is not that anti-infantry options are only now becoming available, that's definitely not true, but the way I see it it is becoming easier for many factions to fit such options in without sometimes having to sacrifice a certain amount of versatility.

The Avenger fits that same mold for Cygnar as well: until Wrath, how many models did Cygnar really have that could both hit something and crack its high ARM, and make trouble for a units of (high DEF) infantry? Thunderhead obviously, but beyond that (and bearing in mind that's a character model)?

[PG_Draxos]

I agree with Scout's Honor.

The factions are getting new stuff but they still fit the molds of the factions IMO.

[Sinsation]

Has any faction really changed much in this regard? Of all the factions I play, I think the only significant growth I've seen is Legion, which has grown to accommodate infantry-heavy lists and has anti-upkeep tools now. Nothing else, as far as I'm aware, has seen much evolution over the last few releases. I suppose you could call the Stormwall and Stormstrider evolutionary points for Cygnar, but that's less straight forwards, as everyone has colossals now, and the stormwall is still too new to see if it lives up to the hype in a serious environment.

Yes, most of them have. Particularly with the change to MKII, and since then less, but that's because the number of models released between Prime and MKII vs. models since is relatively small.
If you consider MKII in the past few releases (since all the faction books are essentially MKII changes) then yeah. Huge changes.

[Kuarnix]

Have players really been giving you guys such blatant free passes by not already including the just as potent anti-infantry options available for alot of MK2? The new anti-infantry meta is not new to me, and I'd venture to say alot of tournament frequenting Khador players. I've already had to deal with the fact that my infantry is not always unkillable and at times is super dead. And despite that, those same lists are still effective.

It is mind boggling to keep seeing the idea that anti-infantry options are just now appearing,

I think in some areas yes, or players don't rework their lists to deal with the issue.....

[Lanz]

Yes, most of them have. Particularly with the change to MKII, and since then less, but that's because the number of models released between Prime and MKII vs. models since is relatively small.
If you consider MKII in the past few releases (since all the faction books are essentially MKII changes) then yeah. Huge changes.

I wasn't really thinking of Mk1 to Mk2 in terms of evolution, though. Lots of changes, sure, but PP tried to retain as much of each faction's 'feel' as it already existed. I took evolution to reflect the aquisition of new model types and rule types that expand the sorts of lists that can be made and allow a faction to make decent lists that break out of its niche.

[Sinsation]

I wasn't really thinking of Mk1 to Mk2 in terms of evolution, though. Lots of changes, sure, but PP tried to retain as much of each faction's 'feel' as it already existed. I took evolution to reflect the aquisition of new model types and rule types that expand the sorts of lists that can be made and allow a faction to make decent lists that break out of its niche.

Ah, roger. I just think back when people say new releases don't change things, or that there isn't evolution, to escalation, and how the game has changed since. Winterguard before joe and UA? Crazy. Then there's even just things like the tier lists which all are relatively new, which crap as some may be, definitely provide a different style (Hoarluk 1 tier list vs. traditional trolls for instance, eButcher tier list). You get sometimes a single model which presents brand new alternatives (Extoller, Archidon, Gallows Groves, Witch Doctor), or things like the black dragon UA, which IIRC brings your IFP up to a 16/22 stationary/knockdown immune brick, evolving them from a hard infantry unit to one hell of an objective grabber. Slow evolution, and hard mutation. Kovnik Joe is a mutation, while the Exemplar Solo and Gallows Groves are more like evolutions, if that makes sense.

No idea of how much the new releases will change/evolve stuff, but when people say things like, new models don't affect metas, or change things, that just ignores the whole evolution of Warmachine, to Warmahordes MKI, to warmahordes MKII, to now.

[NChomsky3d]

Rather than getting new jacks/chassis or new units, I'd like to see some new abilities. We have booms, which are nice, but we're also the faction that's associated with cold and ice. I'd love to see a unit or UA that took care of that. Maybe a solo that allows one of our guns (mortar or field gun) to fire a shot that does no damage but freezes everything that the template is over, or maybe some more ice sprays. As it stands we have, other than a couple casters, the Greylords and Koldun Lord, Beast 09, as well as Valachev, who have ice related attacks. Am I missing anyone?

[Khador247]

None of those things are new though. All of the Colossal have decent to great anti-infantry abilities, but nothing already not available for that price tag.

Have players really been giving you guys such blatant free passes by not already including the just as potent anti-infantry options available for alot of MK2? The new anti-infantry meta is not new to me, and I'd venture to say alot of tournament frequenting Khador players. I've already had to deal with the fact that my infantry is not always unkillable and at times is super dead. And despite that, those same lists are still effective.

It is mind boggling to keep seeing the idea that anti-infantry options are just now appearing,

Durrrr I don't no nuttin. We just play with rocks and sticks here.