Widowmakers

[Turtle_Assassin33]

So, I've been fielding a squad of widowmakers (no WMM) and so far they've been less than successful. I play them them pretty defensively (get to cover and take shots), and yet they still seem to die without doing anything significant.
Am I playing them wrong, or are they just not that good?

[Saekyn]

So, I've been fielding a squad of widowmakers (no WMM) and so far they've been less than successful. I play them them pretty defensively (get to cover and take shots), and yet they still seem to die without doing anything significant.
Am I playing them wrong, or are they just not that good?

Most likely neither, actually. If your opponent knows what they do, there's a good chance they'll plug any spare shots they have right into our snipers. I've taken out entire units with Widowmakers, special solos, shut down Arcnodes, dealt a final shot to a weakened model (it's fun for models that just passed tough checks), softened up a caster....the unit is very, very solid.

If you're having trouble keeping them alive, I'd recommend Advance Deploying them behind the rest of your forces so they aren't so easy to pick off. Remember that they're RAT7, so they don't have to worry too much about standing still to aim. Fourteen inches is quite a distance, don't be afraid to hang back if the alternative is fiery death without taking a shot.

[Ender_Melchior]

It's not that you are playing them wrong. It's that your opponent knows just how much trouble they can be. People typically try to take them out as quickly as possible.

Some things to think about. Individual Widowmakers have a pretty good shot at taking out Cryx Arc Nodes. Standing still, you only need a 6 to hit, and then you're -4 on 2d6, to the column of your choosing (arc node column).

Thinning out infantry from 14" away is huge. The ability to take out the effectiveness of Bonejacks at will? Huge.

[Tico Love]

Also, be aware of any units that your opponent fields that can drop AOE attacks. Keep your Widowmakers away from them. I just recently lost a squad to a unit of Ogrun Assault Corps because I forgot about thier AOE's.

[John of Arc]

What's killing them? What are you trying to kill, but can't? Widowmakers can dominate or be useless depending on your opponent.

[Tyr852]

Widowmakers for me are pretty near autoincludes for how many games they have won me or helped . You just either have to be familiar with the opponents army or ask to see their cards and check for AoE otherwise they are defense 18-20 depending. If they do have AoE's hang them back till you've either cleared the AoE's or something else presents it's self. *I should add models with hunter are also something to watch for as they will ignore the camo bonus as well.

Also I'm not sure if you are new to game (just guessing by post count) but the wording on them is a little wonky , you can do 2 things with them either ping anything for 1 pt of damage if they hit (the card kind of makes it sound like warbeasts/warjacks only) and pick the column or a regular attack roll and pick the column. For me the the ping is invaluable ..oh you have 18+ arm in shield wall but 1 hp.. that's to bad. You can pretty much guarantee outside of stealth and Iron Flesh they will take down 4 1hp units a turn.

[quindraco]

So, I've been fielding a squad of widowmakers (no WMM) and so far they've been less than successful. I play them them pretty defensively (get to cover and take shots), and yet they still seem to die without doing anything significant.
Am I playing them wrong, or are they just not that good?

I actually consistently get the same results; at a point per model they're on the more expensive side for their attack volume (more expensive than, say, the Great Bears) and their damage can be pretty underwhelming against a model with a lot of boxes, so it's frequently difficult for me to get them to shoot a worthwhile target. RAT 7 is below my usual accuracy standard of 8, and they miss just often enough to be frustrating. It's entirely possible I just haven't fielded them with a caster where they'll suit my playstyle, though.

[philipcryx]

I usually used them as a missle, point them at something i want dead and when it dies expect them to die next turn....if they dont then my opponent has underestimated them (happend once) then rinse and repeat. I actually got a caster kill on pButcher feat turn with them.

[Natetehaggresar]

I actually consistently get the same results; at a point per model they're on the more expensive side for their attack volume (more expensive than, say, the Great Bears) and their damage can be pretty underwhelming against a model with a lot of boxes, so it's frequently difficult for me to get them to shoot a worthwhile target. RAT 7 is below my usual accuracy standard of 8, and they miss just often enough to be frustrating. It's entirely possible I just haven't fielded them with a caster where they'll suit my playstyle, though.

I can't think of a whole lot of ranged options with 8.

I mean nyss under pirusks feat, and WG with joe are an effective 8.

Nyss are a point a pop and rat 6 normally, WG are cheaper but both flavors lack sniper, so they can have problems against the likes of forgeguard, boomhowlers under arcane shield etc, whereas Widowmakers will reliably pop high arm infantry (or cause tough checks to boomies).

I love widowmakers, but you have to understand their limits. Don't shoot multi-wound models unless you need 1 more damage to knock out a system, or they have low armor. Their ideal prey is low to middling def, high arm infantry, though with an aim they've got a shot against high def infantry too. Under a number of spells/feats they are legitimate caster kill threats as well, such as S&P, or the butchers feat.

Also its important to remember its just a 4 point unit. Sometimes, they will get hit with a chain lighting/ashes to ashes and thats it. Other times they will murder a whole unit of forge guard and be ready for more.

Also if you do take the marksman ALWAYS use the swift hunter move. There always will be a place you would rather be, back on a hill, back behind cover, further away from the enemy, out of friendly models charge lane, or if the enemy is slow nearer so you can aim next turn etc.

[quindraco]

I can't think of a whole lot of ranged options with 8.

Accuracy threshold, not ranged accuracy threshold, which is why I normally rely on melee when I can. I'm also comfortable with lower-rat models that can boost - WGI, as you mentioned, Black Ivan, and Behemoth, since his second shot for free is like having Fortune, only better. I also plan on trying out the Demolisher, since its game plan is to abuse the minimum scatter rules to guarantee hits. Nyss and WGI can both also CRA, so when my Nyss shoot, they frequently CRA, which unfortunately cuts their attack volume in half, but raises their accuracy to where I'm comfortable. It's one reason I take Nyss less often.

[NChomsky3d]

The thing to remember about Widowmakers (and the Marksman) is that they outrange most things in the game. You can stand still, fire at effective MAT 9 (10 for the solo) and then move a couple inches away. With S&P or HoF they hit pretty much everything, and can put a serious dent in even multi-wound models with those buffs.

It can also be fun to put them around pVlad and cast Windwall, which means they can't be targeted by non-magical ranged attacks.

I also love them with either Sorscha, as Fog of War is a great way to keep them safe if there isn't much cover/concealment around, and shatterstorm is glorious with snipers. I take a unit of them in pretty much every game I play.

[SuperTheBoss]

The big thing for me with keeping widowmakers alive is threat management. If you can make sure that there are more threatening or equally threatening but more accessible targets for your opponent to deal with then they will have to deal with those or suffer the consequences. give your widowmakers a bodyguard so that killing them means losing whatever they killed them with. Keeping anything alive in warmachine comes down to forcing your opponent to make difficult decisions. If you can put them in a lose-lose situation then it doesn't matter as much what they choose to kill because you come out on top either way. And a lot of times if there's an equal threat that is closer, most people seem to forget about the widowmakers and focus on whatever that other threat is.

[AstijanII]

It can also be fun to put them around pVlad and cast Windwall, which means they can't be targeted by non-magical ranged attacks.

Just to clarify: They can be targeted under Wind Wall, the ranged attack only misses automatically. That's a huge difference regarding AOEs!

[Wisible]

So, I've been fielding a squad of widowmakers (no WMM) and so far they've been less than successful. I play them them pretty defensively (get to cover and take shots), and yet they still seem to die without doing anything significant.
Am I playing them wrong, or are they just not that good?

Widowmakers are excellent, but they're a primary target. You're not playing them wrong, at least not as you've described it. They are usually the first unit I loose when i play them simply because they are an infantry nightmare.

One thing to remember: just because something has advanced deploy, doesn't mean you NEED to advance deploy it. In other words, you don't have up at the edge of the increased deploy zone. See what your opponent sets up and then try to work around it.

Widowmakers tend to work well with and caster that has iron flesh, as well as pSorscha, pVlad and Hark.

Hope this helps; they're one of my favorite units. Best of luck!

[Kuarnix]

It can also be your opponent's army composition. The perfect situation for widowmakers is staring down spd 5, def 12 non-reach troopers like Knights Exemplar and Stormblades. After that, anything DEF 12 is great. DEF 13 is okay, like for shield wall troopers and stuff, especially if you can aim. Once you start getting to 14 and above you really need to be aiming or giving them some help...they don't do so well because of the low attack volume.

But, what they're really good for in my experience is clearing out a charge lane that you really need. Aim and shoot! They're also much more valuable late-game than early game, in my experience.

[Skylifter]

Maybe your problem is target selection. I have been consistently successful in employing my Widowmakers. They are ideal for dealing with high ARM one-box-infantry, since they kill one with every hit, and they hit a lot. They once destroyed a unit of stormblades, half of them on pStryker's feat turn with the armour buff spell and an effective ARM 23 (I think...).

They can also kill support solos (especially with the Marksman) and disable jack systems, though the latter is situational. If you can buff their damage output, like with pVlad or pButcher, you can also put quite a dent in light jacks.

[Deepeyes]

I try not to keep my windowmakers stationary for too long. I find it is too easy for my opponent to avoid them or send something that can kill them if I do.

[Aylw]

If you have them getting killed before getting too many shots off - keep them back. Behind your front line even, if your opponent has particularly long range guns. If the opponent isn't within 14", and they are high def, don't feel the need to rush the widowmakers just so you can get a shot off - and die in the return fire. Just sit them there, and wait for the enemy to come to you. Space them, so that aoe can't kill them all in one go.

Your enemy will be forced to do one of a few things - circumvent the 14"! range (win for you), ignore them, moving into range and lose guys next turn (win for you), or commit a decent sized force to close the gap and kill them anyways, possibly overcommitting to kill a 4 pt unit.

Having them alive during mid-game to open charge lanes is a life saver. If the enemy does present a great target that you need to commit to put a bullet through, remember that you can move up (or keep up front) just 1 or 2 snipers, enough to do the deed, and retreat the others to fight another day.

[Revengineer]

Target selection is key remember they are elite snipers. Use them to snipe important support like solos and ua where possible. Infantry thinning or plinking a cortex box is just gravy

[The Buoyancy of Water]

I've found them good for reinforcements recently. My most recent eVlad list uses Widowmakers and eEiryss for reinforcements and was really effective!

Cheers,
Dave

[Shinji]

Just like Saekyn said. Don't put tem out front, they will be picked off as a target of opportunity, or you will just make it easier for your opponent to get close enough to kill them. Let them hang back a little and plink stuff as it comes to you. I usually try camping them in a forest. Although they can move and shoot too.

[PG_Kovaas]

I expect them to die soon, so usually I push them as forward as I can and go for the throat on my opponent's Army. Usually they can kill a couple of support solos or UA before being killed, repaying themselves almost every game, and then I have Yuri and co ready to counter charge what killed my snipers, simple but effective.

[RayofPaintStudios]

I like using them to control where my opponent moves certain models. Everyone knows that if a WM shoots at you, you're taking damage. So if they have some infantry that I don't want marching up the left side of my board, I'll plant them in some cover or concealment and dare my opponent to lose 4 of his models right off the bat.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

I often run them with a unit of Greylord Ternion behind them. The Ternion can put clouds on them to jack them up to a high DEF vs shooting. And if anything does manage to get within range of them, it'll usually die to the magic shotguns from the Ternion

-Rick

[Flak Maniak]

Widowmakers are like Eiryss: A lot of the time, if you bring them forward to do their task, you're spending them. Like Eiryss, they should be saved, and not played far forwards. Now they don't do That One Shot like Eiryss, so you still have to get value out of them fairly early in the game, but the key is not overexposing them. I like 'em for shooting bonejacks and then, the turn after that, walking forwards and shooting Bane Thralls in the face. Yeah, I like to be aggressive with my Widowmakers in the late game. By that time they're not my largest threat and can do as they please.

[Turtle_Assassin33]

Okay, a few questions from what I've read.

-Wind wall states that the models in range also can't make ranged attacks, so why would a surround pVlad with them if it effectively makes them useless?

-I am fairly new (25 pts. so far), and I've been excessively frustrated with large groups of infantry (from cryx, I forget their names) who have stealth. It forces me to send my widowmakers at targets who just seem to be useless to shoot at.

-Since so much of the infantry that I've played seems to have stealth, what do you all recommend I do with them in that situation?

Thanks for all the help!

[quindraco]

Okay, a few questions from what I've read.

-Wind wall states that the models in range also can't make ranged attacks, so why would a surround pVlad with them if it effectively makes them useless?

-I am fairly new (25 pts. so far), and I've been excessively frustrated with large groups of infantry (from cryx, I forget their names) who have stealth. It forces me to send my widowmakers at targets who just seem to be useless to shoot at.

-Since so much of the infantry that I've played seems to have stealth, what do you all recommend I do with them in that situation?

Thanks for all the help!

1) If you activate pVlad second, they can shoot just fine.
2) Counters to stealth: AOEs are a soft counter, and sprays and melee are a hard counter.

[scout's honor]

2) Counters to stealth: AOEs are a soft counter, and sprays and melee are a hard counter.

To elaborate just a little bit: the most efficient way for Khador to handle typical stealth-heavy Cryx lists is to send in the WGI, including the UA and backed up by Kovnik Grigorovich, preferably with an Iron Flesh caster. Boosted sprays gobble up Cryx infantry, Bob & Weave + IF means Cryx infantry will have a hard time hitting them if they manage to engage. It really works a treat.

[profparm]

Additional stealth counter: Spriggan.

Well, according to his rules. I haven't played against enough stealth to know if it's actually useful or not.

[scout's honor]

Additional stealth counter: Spriggan.

Well, according to his rules. I haven't played against enough stealth to know if it's actually useful or not.

A Spriggan can help counter Stealth, but it's not much of a counter by itself and the number of Stealth models affected by its Targeting Flares is usually limited.