What's it really about, man?

[Sosthenes]

I really like that the whole cosmology of the Iron Kingdoms isn't really defined all that precisely, with most of what we know as players coming from the inhabitants of the setting itself. So anything I'm asking here is more about the people's view than the "Real Truth(tm)".

One thing that seems to be pretty definite, and well-known enough to the people is the Caen/Urcean thingamajig. People have crossed over, the role of souls isn't too obscure.

But that's still quite close to a "materialist" point of view. Basically another dimension, the literal flipside of our existence, with a few powerful beings as lords. And it seems to be the end of the line, as even the most significant acts of "enlightenment" caused a few mortal beings to ascend to lordship there.

So that's pretty much along the lines of early human pantheons. A bit beyond the "they're just up that mountain", but still rather anthropomorphic.

Now looking at earthly religions and the relative timeframe of the Iron Kingdoms, I'm missing a few of the more fundamental truth-seekers and mystics. People who ask even more basic questions than just about the nature of powerful beings. Not about the creator of man/elves or eternal struggles, but things that lie beyond that. The nature of the universe. The origin of it. A possible source of souls. The very meaning of existence (beyond the gods needing batteries).

Who in the Iron Kingdoms is talking about this? Is this part and parcel of some approaches to ascendancy in the church of Morrow? Are Menites allowed to talk about this? Do some Iosan sects ponder about this, not just for intellectual reasons, but as a practical way to bypass the Gods?

If you're looking at the Abrahamic religons, you find a lot of the more anthropomorphic reasoning (literal resurrection in human-like bodies), but also more abstract approaches. Numerology is one approach that tries to find the hidden, absolute truth of the universe. Sometimes this didn't differentiate itself too much from what we call science. John Dee, famed court astrologer of Elizabeth I., concerned himself as much with "proper" mathematics like taught by Euclid as well as cabalistic glyphs to summon angels. All seen as one singular structure to ascertain all of reality.

The closest Immorese equivalent I can think of would be Cyrissists. They seem to treat the universe as some almost mechanical entity, and the way I read it, Cyriss herself can be regarded more as a gateway/prophet/teacher than the sole target of worship and faithful mortal life.

But given the technological and scholarly level of the Iron Kingdoms, I think there's probably more debate about this somewhere. I always liked this approach in other cosmologies, as it offers a nice way to introduce more hoity-toity priests (theologians/mystics as opposed to healers and parsons), or even at the very extreme provide some alternative to atheism for the more "mad scientist" end of the spectrum, not disavowing the existence of gods, but the need for worshipping them.

[Babbington]

I think that no one mortal group in the IK have a really "big picture" idea of the cosmology like we get out of the books. I'm sure there's theologians in the Sancteum or in the Lyceum in Imer who are pondering the big questions, but you can't really make a meaningful search for the truth without that kind of perspective. For example, hardly anyone outside of the Nyss and Iosans (and the Skorne, I guess) would know anything about the elven pantheon and what happened there. Maybe human theologians know something about the Rhulic creation myths, but they don't really touch on the whole nature of creation or address any races outside of the dwarves.

Humans, both Menites and the followers of the Twins, probably take it for granted that Menoth made everything. They probably don't really make much of an effort to seek out Dhunians to get their version of the creation story, let alone Devourer followers. It's also worth noting that the Twins are johnny come latelies to the divine scene. It's entirely possible that even they don't know the whole truth.

There probably are entities on Caen that actually understand the deeper mysteries of the universe. Toruk probably knowns something, but he's not forthcoming about it. You could probably also learn something about the big picture by striking a deal with one of the Infernals, but the knowledge is almost certainly not worth the price.

[Sosthenes]

Most of what we get out of the books *is* the view of the mortals, the real truth is probably a bit more complicated. And I don't think that either the existing divine beings explain their view of things in every minute detail nor that the followers won't think about it. This would run contrary to all our history and the way humans work. It just might work that way if the gods themselves would influence this in a major way, but I see nothing in the description that we have that this is the case - even regarding the Protectorate. Menoth being the absentee parent especially didn't hand out explanatory notes telling everything about the true version of the Iron Kingdoms's equivalent to the Big Bang up and until the magical unified quantum physics theory.

Medieval and renaissance theologians took the "fact" that God created the earth very literally, too, but that didn't stop them creating very elaborate theories about the nature of this world and the one beyond.

I'm not talking about collecting creation myths from other belief systems and doing some materialistic comparative theology. I'm talking about metaphysics and epistemology within the various religions.

[Rasbec]

The cosmogonies in the Iron Kingdoms are strange ones. For example, Morrow didn't create Caen, nor the race of men, etc... so morrowans didn't believe in a creator god. So do the menites, as the rules and Itchier (ok, i haven't the manual to write properly the name), were found after the existence of men...
The Wurm is only a beast, not a creator as well...
How is Caen created by morrowans or menites? Their faith must allow them to make diferences between the deity and the "creator"... Menoth for example is the "father of man" not the creator of the world...how they do this, I don't know, maybe they think the universe was always here and the gods were born inside of it, and there is no creator entity.... and this open another front, cause morrowans believe Menoth create them... it's friday... xD

[Sosthenes]

Well, the Morrowans have it easy, they came late to the party and don't have to find any justification for their faith. And Menites can easily factor in some Moorcockian or Zoroastrian Law/Oder dealio, with Menoth vis-a-vis the Wyrm.

Know who really got it bad: Elves. Their whole background is that some divine executives saw that Menoth was getting a good return investment out of his invention, and decided to basically copy that. Sure, they improved upon it and one might argue that it went a lot better than the original, but then everything crashed and things start to look really bad for them. They're a bit like Microsoft.

I do wonder how the original Menite writings look like. I would wager a guess that he just focused on straight-forward laws/commandments, and didn't give neat background stories and exposition. So a lot of "Thou shalt", and not much of "In the beginning, I created that mountain over there". So the believers could still argue that He himself created the world, which might even be canon in the Protectorate.

I might have been a bit harsh on the Morrowans. Just because their ambitions seems a bit "limited" by ascension doesn't mean that they wouldn't want to develop a very complicated theory of methaphysics even beyond that. After all, Christians thought a lot about all that stuff and wrote endlessly about it, while still believing in a straight-forward resurrection. To quote Mr. Seacat: "For example, in the Sancteum of Caspia among the theologians of Morrow there are endless debates regarding some of these issues, such as how Dhunia fits into the cosmology and the ancient conflicts between Menoth and the Devourer Wurm."
With people like Kerwin, one doesn't even have to go to the faithful of Cyriss to create an amalgamate of science and theology.

Actually, divine magic itself might reflect quite a bit of metaphysics, depending on how it actually works – direct divine intervention (i.e. literally a prayer), rote memorization (spells as a gift of the Gods, but directly accessing the source of magic) or actual theurgy. Probably varies quite a bit by God, spell level or even per priest (with some directly accessing their faith, and some having a slightly more intellectual bent). It's probably better to disregard the D&D spell-casting mechanism here entirely, as divine spell preparation is really, really weird for anyone but pseudo-Calvinists.

[StJason]

The cosmogonies in the Iron Kingdoms are strange ones. For example, Morrow didn't create Caen, nor the race of men, etc... so morrowans didn't believe in a creator god. So do the menites, as the rules and Itchier (ok, i haven't the manual to write properly the name), were found after the existence of men...

Not true. Morrowans acknowledge Menoth as the creator. However, they have moved on to the hot new sexy religion.

Think of it like that other slavish cult: Apple fans. Do they believe that Babbage & Lovelace did a lot of the early work? Sure. Do they know that Zuse made the first programmable computer? Well, probably not, but they don't scream and try and set you on fire if you tell them. But they aren't denying the existence of IBM either. Instead they are waiting outside of a mall for days in advance for the latest iWhatever in a show of devotion and wishes to receive the blessings of St. Jobs.

The Wurm is only a beast, not a creator as well...

Not quite. The Wurm is credited with creating all sorts of predators and violent beasties out there. Dragons and Bears and tigers and wolves and all sorts of things that will eat you. Storms, earthquakes, and other violent natural activities are also His provenance.
Dhunia is generally credited with the creation of the more gentle creatures. In many ways, Dhunia is Caen. Now, I'm not certain if Morrowans accept that Dhunia is/made Caen, but I wouldn't see an issue with that, either.

[Munindk]

The Wurm didnt just create predators, he's the daddy of all the Gobbers, Ogrun and Trollkin too.

[Sosthenes]

One key element of Iron Kingdoms metaphysics is probably the nature of souls. Even within a religion its importance is well-known, so worth considering. And it even transcends the Gods themselves, as they're not creating it, but just tending/harvesting. So this seems to be the primal connection to the universe itself.

Now the problem is that if you're delving in that territory, you're really meddling in the affairs of the Gods, as any remotely practical application would be encroaching on their territory. Never mind that the people who seem to be most wise to the nature of souls are the Orgoths (and the Cryxians now). It's a recipe for heresy, so there's probably no "white hat soul hacking". Probably a very arcane and obscure subject, where the few tomes in existence are laden with verbose, evasive sentences, all to make sure that it's not that understood widely and doesn't imply any real-world application. Philosophy is dangerous in the Iron Kingdoms, compared to stepping on the Gods toes, hemlock seems a piffle.

And to finish with a DougQuote: "Morrowans describe most of the souls as spending an eternity in contemplation and philosophical self-improvement as each attempts to transcend its former limits and become a pure creature of spirit unsoiled by remnants of their mortal past."

Why wait, if you can afford to spend your earthly life in that pursuit?

[Babbington]

There actually is "white hat soul hacking." It's what the Menite Reclaimant Order does. But then they've taken vows of silence, so they're not going to tell anyone else what they know.

[Rasbec]

One key element of Iron Kingdoms metaphysics is probably the nature of souls. Even within a religion its importance is well-known, so worth considering. And it even transcends the Gods themselves, as they're not creating it, but just tending/harvesting. So this seems to be the primal connection to the universe itself.

The souls are created by the gods (described under "Nature of Souls"), the infernals try to tend/harvest them.
I've been reading all this chapter (Cosmology and Religion) and it answers most of your questions...and contradicts my previous post xD

[Sosthenes]

The souls are created by the gods (described under "Nature of Souls"), the infernals try to tend/harvest them.

Quoting that same paragraph: "Original souls are formed by the gods when they create new species of living beings. The investment of energy required for this act is enormous, but eventually rewarded with interest when a species multiplies, adding to the power of its creator. The creation and harvesting of souls is believed to be the sole motivating factor for the gods to create living, sentient species."

And from an old post by Elder Seacat, Scribe of the Gods: "It isn't that gods create souls directly. What they create is a sentient species which can then reproduce and continue to produce souls so long as it exists. This is a method of replicating souls. It is the initial investment required to create a species which is extremely taxing, once that has been done the gods can reap the benefits so long as they continue to be worshiped by their creation. This particular creative process may no longer be possible at this point in Caen's history as there is no evidence of any recently created species. It's possible the barrier between Caen and Urcaen is now such that the creation of new species can no longer occur. Of course no one really understands this process exactly nor the requirements behind it."

[Munindk]

What about the Farrow then, according to the Monsternomicon Vol. 1 they were created by an wizard (possibly both evil and mad) so do they have souls?

[Rapier]

Assuming that the rules for Hordes attempt to represent cannon (rather than sacrificing it for balance) the farrow do indeed have souls.

There's two ways to look at that; they obtain souls from the additional of their human (or different soul carrying) species to their blood. Or else all animals inherently have souls. Given the emphasis on sentient required for souls from the quote by Seacat the first seems more likely. (Unless you want to put that requirement down to sentient arrogance when they wrote down their cosmology).

This also opens up the question of who benefits from their souls in Urcaen - as I understand it Farrow don't really worship, so are the souls claimed on an individual basis or are they a free people who don't fight at all in Urcaen? (Worse case for them: lacking the protection of divinity they just get harvested by the Infernals).

[Sosthenes]

Didn't the origin story of the farrow change since then anyways, i.e. they're more natural now?

But even if they were the usual wizard-created abominations, as long as they aren't created ex nihilo, there's no contradiction. They'd be human souls, albeit corrupted. Whether this corruptions extends to their souls or just their earthly bodies would be interesting, i.e. how would arcane mutants look in the afterlife?

[Rapier]

My understanding of the farrow origin is that it "might be a wizard-creation" but isn't known (the Farrow themselves lack an origin story they tell their own children) and that Dr. Arkidus' successful results add strength to the claim because they're more easily adapted than other species he has worked with.

I'm also interested to know about Khorsk the Gator God - does he exist because they believe in him? Is their belief co-opted into the devourer wurm despite them explicitly believing that it isn't the case? Or does their belief in him (And gaining powers from the belief) prove he exists, even if the Druids think he's just part of the wurm.

[Sosthenes]

As far as we know it, it's Gods creating life, not the other way around. All what's written about cosmology seems to point against divine beings as manifestations of mortal will/worship.

Having said that, a minor god could be an aspect of a True Gawd, just bunk (even if he "grants" prayers) – or maybe ascending isn't just restricted to a few humans. Also, is everything in Urcean basically made out of transformed souls or aspects of the Gods themselves, or are there more native beings? And if so, what's the difference between them and truly divine beings – and is there a way of going from one state to the other?

[Munindk]

The Devourer already collects souls/worship from a number of aspects. Different cults are mentioned in the Five Fingers book and the Circle worship or at least draw power from an aspect of the Devourer so I wouldnt be surprised if the Farrow unknowingly worship the Devourer.

But it seems like I'll have to pick up the Minions book, especially if the Farrow origins have been retconned *sigh* I've already got 3 "Forces of..." books and it seems like I'll end up with them all.

[Rasbec]

And from an old post by Elder Seacat, Scribe of the Gods: "It isn't that gods create souls directly. What they create is a sentient species which can then reproduce and continue to produce souls so long as it exists. This is a method of replicating souls. It is the initial investment required to create a species which is extremely taxing, once that has been done the gods can reap the benefits so long as they continue to be worshiped by their creation. This particular creative process may no longer be possible at this point in Caen's history as there is no evidence of any recently created species. It's possible the barrier between Caen and Urcaen is now such that the creation of new species can no longer occur. Of course no one really understands this process exactly nor the requirements behind it."

And then... what happens with elves?? If the elves can reproduce and continue producing souls, why are lots of offspring soulless??

I have not here my Monsternomicon books, but I remember in the Infernal entry that the gods produce souls.

Another thing, In which book apear the text you quote? Maybe there are more information about this particular.

[Sosthenes]

And then... what happens with elves?? If the elves can reproduce and continue producing souls, why are lots of offspring soulless??

Not even the elves know for sure. And you have to factor in reincarnation for them, too. Let's see if the Book of Doug has something to offer here, too. Ah, there:

Some elves were born with reincarnated souls, others with new souls. Ayisla was the governing force behind this. The manifestation of soulless elves is hypothesized (by some) to be an unexpected side-effect of Ayisla joining the Vanished. A small minority of newborn elves are born soulless; some consider these unfortunate individuals might have been destined to receive reincarnated souls which went astray.

(NB: All from my rabid fanboy collection, originals lost in the cataclysm of Ye Olden Forvm.)

The way I read it, Gods "form" souls, i.e. they package it in human/elven/dwarven form (or gobber, if really desperate). The can't tap the source directly, so they use their created races as Fedex messengers into Urcaen. What exactly they used for is a bit vague. They aren't converted into formless soul energy to power the engines of divine war, but simple mass warfare seeems a bit too mundane. Maybe they're temporarily converted into bigger "units" or have some weird divine quantum mechanical reality warping/stabilization effect (i.e. just by being there, they fulfill some duty). Maybe a mixture/variant of that or something even weirder. I have the feeling the solution is probably closer to finance than physics or warfare.

Nevertheless, souls are special. And that's my theory why they're one way of approaching really high-falutin' spiritual goals. The Morrowan souls seem to work on it. The gods probably could do it already, but Menoth wouldn't give up his power/responsibility, and Morrow is probably waiting until he's not needed anymore.

[Rasbec]

From the description of Ionese elf: "...something that was rare but now is a growing epidemy..." this not sound like "a small minority" to me.
Another thing is that in the book there is no trace of "elven reincarnated souls", and this is something that the elves would know cause they were the neighbors of Aysila and she would told them...

In the Monsternomico it's said "...Infernals cannot create souls as gods do..."

As I see there is three ways to get your answers:
1) You can read the old book and take it as true.
2) You can buy the new one and take it as true.
3) You can write to Mr. Seacat and ask him all of this. Cause I began to see lots of diferences between his idea of this and the book of Iron Kingdoms. And, of course, ask him about the farrow origin, maybe they were not created by a mad wizard...

[PPS_Dougseacat]

This is a semantic technicality. The origin of souls is the creator gods, but they don't spend their time at an assembly line creating new ones. Rather, they create living species which then multiply spiritual essence/souls in the course of their life cycle. This is an explanation for how souls proliferate after creation. The actual mechanism whereby the gods created those species in the first place is poorly understood by the people of Caen and represents a religious mystery.

The explanation of farrow origins has certainly changed since we first wrote about them, as will happen any time we more closely examine a specific topic in our setting. The Monsternomicon information is presented with deliberate uncertainties and gaps having to do with the limits of awareness of the inhabitants of the setting and often more specifically Professor Pendrake. The theorized origin story to a "deranged wizard" is from a single sentence in the "Obscure" piece of lore from the "Legends and Lore" section. This is not an absolute and irrefutable fact. Legend and Lore entries are written to give kernels of information to those with the appropriate skills and also to facilitate plot seeds. An inhabitant of our setting who has studied books about farrow (such as you might find at Corvis University) might learn this piece of information since it was the widely accepted hypothesis about the origin of the farrow among the educated. It happens to be inaccurate and incomplete.

That there is something unusual about the farrow can be seen in the controversial writings of Dr. Arkadius, who has made a more exacting study of them. It seems fair to deduce that the farrow likely already existed but may have been modified at some point in time. This could account for this obscure piece of lore. After all, the "creation" of a species is a subjective and debatable topic. If someone were to change a creature extensively enough to become a distinct species which breeds true, this could be deemed the creation of a new species. One could argue that creatures like the Tharn, warpwolves, and satyxis are examples of such a thing, each with distinct origins. In none of these cases was there the equivalent of divinely instigated species creation; the base materials were human beings, already created and with souls included.

The farrow material in the HORDES books, which is an area where we have had the chance to spend greater time with the farrow and their culture, suggests Dhunian roots (Forces of HORDES: Minions, p. 69), akin to certain other intelligent races that occupy the wilds.

You can generally expect that if you are comparing an older book with the newer book and you see an apparent contradiction, you should consider the newer book more authoritative. In some cases what appears to be a contradiction is simply a simplification or an incomplete depiction. The farrow were never closely studied by scholars in our setting until Dr. Arkadius, meaning the lore on them is limited. In the HORDES books we have introduced significant farrow characters and were thus at liberty to examine them from an insider rather than outsider perspective, and thus to look at their culture and origins more closely than had been the case before. This is similar to the fact that we greatly expanded upon our depiction of the situation in Ios once we were writing the Forces of WARMACHINE: Retribution of Scyrah book. The material in that book takes priority over any similar information in the older IKWG.

[Nerdynick]

If a soul goes to the god it worshiped upon death, how does that work with pantheists like the elves? Do they just divide the souls among themselves?

Also, if the gods are reliant upon their creations' reproducing to create new souls, what are their policies on sex? It seems like it would be good for the gods to encourage rampant..... propagation.

[Lachlan the Mad]

Know who really got it bad: Elves. Their whole background is that some divine executives saw that Menoth was getting a good return investment out of his invention, and decided to basically copy that. Sure, they improved upon it and one might argue that it went a lot better than the original, but then everything crashed and things start to look really bad for them. They're a bit like Microsoft.

Sigged! Raaaar.

I really, really want to see more stuff about Cyriss's point of view on the universe. Does Cyriss even live in Urcaen? Does she accept the power of other gods? Does she have any particular commandments other than "Learn more stuff!"?

[HerrDeux]

Sigged! Raaaar.

I really, really want to see more stuff about Cyriss's point of view on the universe. Does Cyriss even live in Urcaen? Does she accept the power of other gods? Does she have any particular commandments other than "Learn more stuff!"?

Le Maiden doesn't have to domicile in Urcaen with all of those violent and emotional gods...she's got her own planet of pure logic!

[Sosthenes]

If you know her, she wouldn't be a Maiden anymore. Seriously, I want to know diddly squat about Cyriss, given this threads origin: Yes, there's some leeway in the big religions about transcendent beliefs and hoity-toity super-enlightenment, but it's all open in Her cults and sects. Goddess, likes gear. The rest is up to you. Some see here as some boring, Forgotten Realm-ish guild goddess, then you've got those weird transhumanists, and I think I still got some notes about a group of sects who took her mathematical leanings into the realm of economics, with some weird results (one splinter group is basically Biotech, the other is "just" normal Randiots).

[FrankJaeger]

My Cyriss is totally lovecraftian.

EDIT:

To add more to the topic. I don't want to know more about Cyriss, but a LOT more about Cyriss followers and sects. That's where the interesting stuff is.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Yeah, people have the idea that Cyriss is basically just a big space robot god - there is a lot more going on there, and she is much more interesting.

[Sosthenes]

I'm not saying it's aliens, but it's aliens.

[Lachlan the Mad]

I believe that my Cyrissean Gobber character's opinion is that it is his job to learn as much as possible, and he goes dungeon-crawling on the off-chance that they have some books he hasn't read. He believes that every book he reads, and every piece of knowledge he gains, will be added to the Great Library of Cyriss upon his death. He actually doesn't have a clue what most of them are about, but he doesn't let that stop him.