Fluff question on Thyra

[Minotaur]

I do not have Wrath, so was wondering what this warcaster's personality was like in the fluff: she a headcase like the butcher, or more like Feora, cold like Zerkova, or more compassionate like Dartan Vilmon?

[jandrese]

She's a hothead with serious anger management issues. She spends most of the Wrath about >< this close to killing Saxon Orrik simply because he was a betraying lying murderous butthead.

[Themainmenoth]

She is very much shades of grey. She is very interesting, She is both Love and Hate. She loves her sisters of menoth and her (dead) Husband, however She is Very vengeful against Cygnar for taking him away from her, She isn't very preachy which is much a relief for a menoth caster, Has VERY high respect for Feora, and is calm and collected most of the time on the out side, but fights inner rage on the inside. She's a great character with a just tragic enough back story to feel for her and just enough hate to not really make her a "Good Guy." She is in my opinion Lawful Neutral, like most Menites, and she is very fleshed out in her short story within the fluff. Great Character and a Great Caster, Thyra is a keeper all around.

[Themainmenoth]

She's a hothead with serious anger management issues. She spends most of the Wrath about >< this close to killing Saxon Orrik simply because he was a betraying lying murderous butthead.

I think most of the fighting she did was in her head to kill him, but it's true she did stick a blade to his throat on more then one occasion, mostly because she's still a bit of a rookie caster and leader, and thought he was lying to her, He is quite famously a traitor to Cygnar and known as a very good lier.

[jandrese]

Also, he was lying to her.

[jandrese]

Stupid glitchy forum software... What is up with these looooong delays when posting anyway?

Removed double post.

[Minotaur]

She sounds like she has bi-polar depression. Basically she is a mini feora personality wise then, but hasn't gone all the way down the raaaaaaaagggggggeeeeeeee path quite yet (but lacking fees ambition?).

[jandrese]

She doesn't have the backstabbing ruthlessness of Feora, nor the ambition to become the next Hierarch by any means necessary. She's much more of a directed anger missile. Her fluff talks about how she makes herself remember everybody she has ever killed though (which is a lot) as part of her daily prayers. I'm not sure how this works unless she's mentioning "scuzzy winterguard guy with an axe, kayazi assassin guy who tried to use a gold plated knife, that guy in the shadows I didn't even see clearly...". The Iron Kingdoms doesn't use dog tags AFAIK.

[Masanori]

maybe she has a date/people system. Like on this date this year x number of people killed.

[Silverstar843]

yeah, Jand's about right. I see here mostly as a weapon. Couple things no one has mentioned yet that I find interesting about her character:

-She's more loyal to Feora than the Protectorate
-She was actually leading her forces as part of a non-Protectorate army and Feora basically hunted her down and instead of executing her, made Thyra work for her.

[Tarma]

In the fluff, she is trying to find, a so sensational way, to die on, as possible, to get that one-way ticket, to the City of Man, that she desier. In game, it looks, (to me), as her purpose is to find so many ways, to get herself killed on, as possible, (I can be wrong, I has her, but has not tried her jet). I agree that she is more loyal to Feora than to the Protectorate.

Tarma

[hausdorff space]

Her fluff talks about how she makes herself remember everybody she has ever killed though (which is a lot) as part of her daily prayers.

I haven't read the full fluff, but isn't that Nicia?

[jandrese]

I haven't read the full fluff, but isn't that Nicia?

That might be, both were in Wrath so I read them at the same time. My memory might be a little mixed between the two.

[Themainmenoth]

The one thing you need to know is that Thyra isn't that bad a person. She's about as good as the average menite gets, her heart is in the right place, but her mind is very clouded in boundless rage and this keeps her from being anything close to a "Good" person.

[jandrese]

Also, she's fanatically devoted to probably the most mustache twirling person in the Protectorate. That's going to make it really hard to stay good.

[Silverstar843]

The one thing you need to know is that Thyra isn't that bad a person. She's about as good as the average menite gets, her heart is in the right place, but her mind is very clouded in boundless rage and this keeps her from being anything close to a "Good" person.

Vilmon? Even Kreoss seems more resonable than Thyra. Thyra seems to think she is a weapon in Feora's hand. Kreoss is a judge who will always do the right thing (ie, Stryker laying there bleeding after killing Voyle and stopping Feora from killing him).

[Themainmenoth]

oh, I never meant to say she is our "nicest" caster, there are many that are more good then her, I'm just saying she isn't evil is all.

[Bollster]

None of our casters are evil. Talk like that will get you up in front of the Scrutators. All Protectorate casters work for the glory of Menoth, there are many paths in his name.

[Themainmenoth]

None of our casters are evil. Talk like that will get you up in front of the Scrutators. All Protectorate casters work for the glory of Menoth, there are many paths in his name.

I'd actually have to disagree with you there, I'm pretty sure Reznik Is a complete ****** bag, and is totally Lawful evil.

[Del Fuego]

I'd actually have to disagree with you there, I'm pretty sure Reznik Is a complete ****** bag, and is totally Lawful evil.

Reznik has a job, and does what he has to in order to see that it is done. He doesn't torture, he doesn't hesitate, he just follows the will of Menoth and attends to his appointed task. Vindictus would be the closest thing to our Lawful Evil caster.

[Themainmenoth]

We'll it says in his Description that reznik brought back the Wracks to the Protectorate (it was a concept lost long ago) and he isn't really liked even among other protectorates, Kreoss for one really doesn't like his methods.

[Tarma]

With Severius as the exception, none of the Protectorate understand Reznik, thats why they don't like him, but I think he do more for the Protectorate, than Thyra and Feora together.

@Silverstar843, what do you mean with that? Kreoss is the one of our two most resonable casters.

Tarma

[Themainmenoth]

Well the fluff even says Severius doesn't use Reznik as much as Voyle did, mainly because of how crule he is. where we all pretty much know how awful a person Voyle was.

[Bollster]

I don't think you understand the gravity of this situation. A brief session with the Scrutators will, I'm sure, do wonders to convince you that all high ranking members of the Protectorate are paragons of virtue who we should aspire to emulate.

More seriously, it's a real perspective thing. From a strictly Menite PoV, all our casters are good, very good in some cases, less in others. Feora and Thyra are probably the dodgiest because they deviate the most from the dictates of the Hierarch but as long as they don't commit treason or heresy and work to the glory of Menoth and the strengthening of the Protectorate then they are good. A devout Morrowan citizen of Caspia would no doubt view every single one of the Protectorate casters as evil, and not just view them but be right in viewing them as evil. I normally am strongly against relativistic morality but in a world where the gods are real, as far as I care to slice it, all bets are off.

[Alzer]

Vindictus is about as mustache twirly as it is possible to be. In his introduction fluff, he stole mail that was meant for his boss, captured the man who was trying to make a peace-trade/alliance with said boss, tortured his captive in the name of science, and then brown-nosed his way out of getting put on a wrack.

Also remember that, at the end of the day, Scrutators are all Inquisitors as part of their occupation. They lead through fear as much as inspiration. Despite generally being level headed and trying to lead by example, they will tie up a common Menite and apply hot brands without a second thought.

In Wrath it should be stated that Reznik actualy showed a moment of restraint (or a simple unwillingness to attack a fortified position on his own). He DID kinda randomly torture a pile of civillains.

Kreoss can't stand Reznik, likely because Reznik doesn't have to follow any codes and is, end of the day, the most blunt Assassin ever. Thyra has to sneak in and use subterfuge to get her target, Reznik just walks up and say "give me this or I kill everything."

I'm up in the air about Thyra. She's pretty down-to-earth for a Daughter from what I've read, but she's still pretty much a crazy-sexist ragemonster. If she didn't work for Feora she may be likeable.

[Themainmenoth]

Reznik just walks up and say "give me this or I kill everything."

That made me laugh out loud no joke, That was funny.

[Soulblighter]

Kreoss can't stand Reznik

That's because Reznik is literally Kreoss' evil twin. Their backstories are almost identical.

[Tarma]

I am not sure on that, Reznik and Kreoss represent two very different point of view, and perhaps one of the few things, they has in commen, is ther faith, but at last, both is total loyal, to the Protectorate, and that is more that you can say about Feora. Vindictus is loyal to, but he is also a politican, with a taste for intrigue, (what both Reznik and Kreoss is not), and with talent for very quick thinking and speaking.

Tarma

[Bollster]

Feora is totally loyal to the Protectorate, just not necessarily to Severius. The difference is important, she still wants the Protectorate to succeed, she has absolute, indeed burning (badum tish) faith in Menoth. She simply believes that the cause of the Protectorate would be best advanced with her at the helm rather than Severius.

[Tarma]

Feora is totally loyal to Feora, and to power. If she ever was to be the head of the Protectorate - so sun the news get out - there would be almost tumult scener of pure joy, in Cygnar's high comand, and Stryker would almost go in coma of joy, because they know, it would only be a matter of months - before the Protectorate was crushed. Feora don't have the ability to lead on topplan, she can't see the the big picture, she only see that part, there concern her self. And I has not, on any time, has any doubt about her faith, but I has, when it comes to her ability, to lead on topplan.

Tarma

[laegim]

Bah, Feora already runs the protectorate homelands; the only thing Feora isn't currently in charge of is the war-front and clergy (which frankly, probably have a lot of loyalty for her anyhow). Severius was a former Scrutator - an unquestionable member of the faith who sought out those who lacked conviction and punished them. Scrutators aren't pleasurable individuals, they're violent, sadistic and often demonized members of menite society. Scrutators are inquisitors and they're not above a little torture to get the information or conviction they need. Feora however, is the leader of the Flameguard and protector of the Temples and cities; the favorite among the common civilians' eyes should be apparent.

The Flameguard are currently working as the peace keepers of Menite society while the Order of the Wall and Order of the Fist are away at war. They defend the homeland from threats and protect the lives of the innocent where the innocent need protection. As far as I'm concerned, the commoner in Menite society would have far more devotion to Feora as their guardian than Severius.

In terms of which orders would back which leader in this impending civil war, I can only throw wild speculation. The Paladins would have to side with the people, as their first duty was ever to protect the innocent [Menite]. I imagine if it came down to a choice between Feora backed by the civilians or Severius backed by SOME of the clergy, Kreoss would at the very least remain neutral. That said, there are more players in the exemplar order than just Kreoss, and whomever they sided with would likely have the weight to win out, at least in a military coup. The Order of the fist.... is too small to matter, though I imagine their loyalties lie less along religious or moral ties and more towards the law (in this case, Severius). The Reclaimers order would probably have to side with Severius given he IS the leader of their religion, and in a world where Gods and the afterlife are real, the Reclaimant order might have a significant amount of political clout. The Harbinger is the real coin toss that will likely determine the outcome of said hypothetical civil war.

The real question is: how long will it be before we see the showdown between Feora and the Hierarch's dog, the High Executioner? I anticipate this fight soon, and a legendary feora as a result. Sadly, I can also see losing the reznik as a result as well.... but perhaps that won't be the case. There is a lot of potential for us to lose casters as a result of a civil war (though with their devotion to Menoth's will, I'm not sure where they'd go other than be killed off), but perhaps we'll see a few new ones rise as well. There are certainly a lot of leaders of various orders out there that haven't stepped out of the fluff yet.

Honestly though, I don't see something as big as overt civil war occurring within Menite borders as the amount of upheaval it would cause in the fluff might not lend itself too well to actual gameplay, but I can definitely see more covert actions occurring in the near future.

So yeah... This is about Thyra right?

[Themainmenoth]

Bah, Feora already runs the protectorate homelands; the only thing Feora isn't currently in charge of is the war-front and clergy (which frankly, probably have a lot of loyalty for her anyhow). Severius was a former Scrutator - an unquestionable member of the faith who sought out those who lacked conviction and punished them. Scrutators aren't pleasurable individuals, they're violent, sadistic and often demonized members of menite society. Scrutators are inquisitors and they're not above a little torture to get the information or conviction they need. Feora however, is the leader of the Flameguard and protector of the Temples and cities; the favorite among the common civilians' eyes should be apparent.

The Flameguard are currently working as the peace keepers of Menite society while the Order of the Wall and Order of the Fist are away at war. They defend the homeland from threats and protect the lives of the innocent where the innocent need protection. As far as I'm concerned, the commoner in Menite society would have far more devotion to Feora as their guardian than Severius.

In terms of which orders would back which leader in this impending civil war, I can only throw wild speculation. The Paladins would have to side with the people, as their first duty was ever to protect the innocent [Menite]. I imagine if it came down to a choice between Feora backed by the civilians or Severius backed by SOME of the clergy, Kreoss would at the very least remain neutral. That said, there are more players in the exemplar order than just Kreoss, and whomever they sided with would likely have the weight to win out, at least in a military coup. The Order of the fist.... is too small to matter, though I imagine their loyalties lie less along religious or moral ties and more towards the law (in this case, Severius). The Reclaimers order would probably have to side with Severius given he IS the leader of their religion, and in a world where Gods and the afterlife are real, the Reclaimant order might have a significant amount of political clout. The Harbinger is the real coin toss that will likely determine the outcome of said hypothetical civil war.

The real question is: how long will it be before we see the showdown between Feora and the Hierarch's dog, the High Executioner? I anticipate this fight soon, and a legendary feora as a result. Sadly, I can also see losing the reznik as a result as well.... but perhaps that won't be the case. There is a lot of potential for us to lose casters as a result of a civil war (though with their devotion to Menoth's will, I'm not sure where they'd go other than be killed off), but perhaps we'll see a few new ones rise as well. There are certainly a lot of leaders of various orders out there that haven't stepped out of the fluff yet.

Honestly though, I don't see something as big as overt civil war occurring within Menite borders as the amount of upheaval it would cause in the fluff might not lend itself too well to actual gameplay, but I can definitely see more covert actions occurring in the near future.

So yeah... This is about Thyra right?

Talking about Feora is basically Talking about Thyra due to her Strong Loyalty to her, Anything Feora does will likely be Backed up by Thyra. A war would not occur because though Feora is very much Power hungry, She's far from stupid. Yes the Citizens might like the Temple Flameguard more then Sevey, which indirectly makes Feora more likable to them, They hold only 1 person near as close to their hearts as they do Menoth himself, and that person is the Harbinger. It is in Feora's fluff that she Hates the Harbinger for she felt that it should have be Her (feora) to have been Menoth's Chosen one, Not the Harbinger (who I don't know her real birth name, if one was ever given in the story). Feora however has never spoken out against the Harbinger and since the Harbinger chose Sevey to lead, not Feora, I think that a war for the Thrown would be a futile one. Feora would attack Sevey, Harbinger would Try to stop her, Most (if not All) of Feora's soldiers would stop and bow to Harbinger and then It would be Feora vs the world. I think however Feora knows this, and wouldn't be that stupid. She'll take what she has, and she'll squeeze every ounce of Power out of it, but she's not going to go for the thrown, since that would be Suicide.

[Tarma]

@Laegrim, there is some points, where you is wong:

1. Severius is still a scrutator.

and

2. Kreoss would not remain neutral, he is a exemplar, and like the rest of his ordre, sworn to serve the priesthood, (and he don't like Feroa), so he would go with Severius.

I don't think Feroa is the favorite among the common civilians', that is Kreoss and Vilmon. Feroa is also less flexible, than Severius when is cames to negotiations, because for Feora, you is with her, or against her, to her there is no middle course.

I think, if it comes to a civil war, Feora would only have Thyra, Nicia and the daughters, with her. Remember the Flameguard would perhaps go against Severius, but not against the Harbinger. The Paladins would pehaps remain neutral, or they would go with Severius.

Remember the last thing Severius was doing in Wrath, was to send Vindictus, back to the Protectorate, to remind both Feora, and the synod, about who there is in command.

Tarma

[laegim]

It is in Feora's fluff that she Hates the Harbinger for she felt that it should have be Her (feora) to have been Menoth's Chosen one

Fair enough; with my limited access to the fluff, I did not realize there was an animosity between the Harbinger and Feora but that does make a lot of sense.

[Themainmenoth]

Fair enough; with my limited access to the fluff, I did not realize there was an animosity between the Harbinger and Feora but that does make a lot of sense.

As far as I know, The Harbinger has no real opinion about Feora, but If I had to guess, She Probably doesn't like her, However this is speculation, not fact.

[Sygerrik]

Remember that Severius is the best orator alive and one of the handful of men seen as responsible for the Protectorate's continued survival and success. As a scrutator, he is feared, but as a leader he is beloved. Feora inspires fanatical loyalty in her Flameguard, but outside of them she has no power base.

[Sul-Menite]

Uh What?

Feora doesn't hate the Harbinger, they have never interacted on panel. Nor has Feora ever voiced an opinion on her. The Harbinger did stay in the temple in Sul (this was before she was made a model) which Feora was guarding. Feora hates Kreoss and doesn't get along with Severious but she and Harby have no beef.

Second of all saying Feora can't lead is silly she has completely modernized the Flameguard and inspires intense loyalty in them and seems to lead them just fine. In terms of her bureaucratic ability frankly how much day to day running of PoM does the Hierarch actually do? That is what the ruling synod is for. Also it was mentioned in Wrath that she is influential with the non-scrutator visgoths among the ruling synod and non scrutator clergy so the Flameguard aren't her only power base (though having the majority of the standing army of the PoM as your powerbase isn't too bad).

Feora is completely and utterly ruthless but then again so was Vinter yet people in Cygnar (and on the forums) still want him back on the throne. I don't think it's a coincidence those two have an alliance. Some people appreciate ruthlessness among leaders, see Rhoven's and Reznik's entries for example.

And I haven't seen anywhere in the fluff that depicts the people of PoM as particulary fond of Severius as a leader, they don't hate him for sure but I think calling beloved is a bit much. Kreoss Harby and the Paladins yes though.

Will Feora become hierarch? No probably not but that is because I get a sense that's not what the writers at PP want storywise, not because she lacks the right tools to do it. That being said Kreoss would also be a good leader, He would just be a very different one

[Themainmenoth]

Uh What?

Feora doesn't hate the Harbinger, they have never interacted on panel. Nor has Feora ever voiced an opinion on her. The Harbinger did stay in the temple in Sul (this was before she was made a model) which Feora was guarding. Feora hates Kreoss and doesn't get along with Severious but she and Harby have no beef.

Second of all saying Feora can't lead is silly she has completely modernized the Flameguard and inspires intense loyalty in them and seems to lead them just fine. In terms of her bureaucratic ability frankly how much day to day running of PoM does the Hierarch actually do? That is what the ruling synod is for. Also it was mentioned in Wrath that she is influential with the non-scrutator visgoths among the ruling synod and non scrutator clergy so the Flameguard aren't her only power base (though having the majority of the standing army of the PoM as your powerbase isn't too bad).

Feora is completely and utterly ruthless but then again so was Vinter yet people in Cygnar (and on the forums) still want him back on the throne. I don't think it's a coincidence those two have an alliance. Some people appreciate ruthlessness among leaders, see Rhoven's and Reznik's entries for example.

And I haven't seen anywhere in the fluff that depicts the people of PoM as particulary fond of Severius as a leader, they don't hate him for sure but I think calling beloved is a bit much. Kreoss Harby and the Paladins yes though.

Will Feora become hierarch? No probably not but that is because I get a sense that's not what the writers at PP want storywise, not because she lacks the right tools to do it. That being said Kreoss would also be a good leader, He would just be a very different one

Ok fine, In her epic fluff it talks about how she hates that Severius gets to be hierarch and not her, but I always read that as her hating the Harbinger for picking him over her, since it was not Severius who rose to that position, but Harbinger who placed him there.

[Sul-Menite]

Ok fine, In her epic fluff it talks about how she hates that Severius gets to be hierarch and not her, but I always read that as her hating the Harbinger for picking him over her, since it was not Severius who rose to that position, but Harbinger who placed him there.

She and Severius have hated each other for years so no she just hates him but she probably would have been upset if anybody but her was made Hierarch.

That being said her fluff entry doesn't even describe her as angry or hating the fact she wasn't made Hierarch (knowing feora she probably is angry ) just worried about her position because she and Severius don't get along. She seems to be making lemonade and realizes that Severius has to die sometime and she is still relatively young.

So I dont think we can read her feelings into the harbinger from her epic entry .

[Bollster]

Feora is the Queen of taking lemons and shoving them in her enemies eyes. If Sul had gone the wrong way, she would have been the one responsible in the eyes of Voyle and the Synod but she cobbled together an army and routed the Cygnarans at the Temple of the Flame (or whatever it's called) and was instrumental in reclaiming the city. She and Sevvy have always been at loggerheads and so when he was named Hierarch and took every other high ranking warcaster into the North with him, it could have been a huge blow to her credibility but she turned that around and now essentially runs the Protectorate homeland. No matter what curveballs Vindictus throws her I have every confidence she'll knock them back out of the park. She's young(ish), ambitious, ruthless, powerful and intelligent and even if Kreoss' star keeps on rising, she's still best placed to become the leader of the Protectorate upon Sevvy's eventual death.