ARM 30 Venethrax - Denying Souls

[Meatloafman91]

So I faced a Venethrax list last night for the first time. Needless to say, I lost to it miserably. I played Mohsar against him figuring that I could try and control his soul consumption with Pillars, and hopefully remove his tarpit/soul harvester target with Crevasse. This was my list:

Mohsar
*Megalith
*Stalker
*Gorax

Min Bloodtrackers
Min Wolves of Orboros
2x Gallows Grove
2x Shifting Stones

His list (from what I can recall) looks something like this:

Venethrax
Defiler
Seether
Warwitch Siren
Skarlock
Bane Thralls
Tarter-sauce
Withershadow Combine
A Pistol Wraith or two

In hindsight, I wish I hadn?t played a list with so much infantry, but I like my Mohsar list this way for Sands of Fate shenanigans. I also wish I had tried to take out his damn defiler first, because it was one of the few things that could take out my pillars with ease (corrosion spray). It was the defiler that cleared the Pillars so that Tarterus could curse my BT and have the Banes Harvest some souls from them. Otherwise I would not have been alpha?d, and my BT?s preying the Banes could have torn them apart the next turn. He was also able to kill my Stalker who was full on fury, putting his ARM to about 30.

So I did a bit of searching, and found a thread about Venethrax that just basically turned into ?how do I crack high ARM?. So everyone said the same thing ?Feral + Primal + (Stone Skin or Forced Evo) kills everything!? While I will have to resort to that anyway, I feel the bigger issue at hand is how else I can deny him souls, because ?Feral + Primal? hitting at 3d6 ? 11 for damage isn?t going to kill Venethrax at ARM 30. I realize that I made mistakes and that I can make some improvements in how I played it out, but I would like to hear what has worked for others. I was considering playing the non-living Woldstalkers (not in Mohsar) so I?m not feeding him souls with BTs. I was also considering eKrueger?s NQ theme list with pEiryss, or Thrullg in another list. My concern with the NQ theme is the lack of hitting power in the constructs that the theme makes me take. Even if I deny him souls his ARM is still pretty high.


From what I have heard, Venethrax is not exactly common in the national meta, but I think Terminus is, and denying souls is just as important in games against him, right? (I haven?t played against Terminus yet.)

What warlocks are best for these match-ups?
(I don?t necessarily have my heart set on Mohsar)

What ?tactics? are used for the purpose of soul denial?

Is it better to just win by scenario? (So, eKrueger?)

[Sanctjud]

Add Witch Doctor, Profit!

[Vicomte Athos]

Add Witch Doctor, Profit!

It's unfortunate that the game has come to this but it is in fact the best solution to cryx crap.

[Bakemono]

I find the best solution is Warbeast heavy lists, i.e. less easy souls for him to reap. Warcasters like this guy and Terminus are the main reason I've started including a Thrullg in my dedicated anti-infantry lists, i.e. my 2nd list at SR events. I don't give up a lot of souls to begin with but even if these bruisers come shooting in camping a ton of Focus and thus boosting their ARM, one blow from the Thrullg kept safely in the rear knocks it all off. It doesn't happen often because just having the Thrullg there gives you board control back and keeps them from trying the tactic.

[Mattho2k3]

pBaldur theme force has very few souls but that doesn't hit that hard. I also had success against Terminus in a game with Cassius as Wormwood grabbed 5 souls. Denying him those souls and hitting him with Curse of Shadows made it so a Feral with Primal could kill him.

[ringsnake]

If he had the UA on the Bane thralls he was playing with 38 points, so it'd be small wonder you lost.

Minimum Bloodtrackers and Wolves without their UAs are useless, and if you've got a Gorax replace Megalith with a Feral. Then ditch the wolves and take the full unit of BloodTrackers with Nuala. That leaves you with one more point; Bellows crew?

Mohsar is not ideal for taking on any Warmachine army. Against Cryx the first things you should reach for are Druids with the UA and one of our other warlocks (pKrueger is my favorite for this) or Kromac.

[Walter]

Wormwood is getting souls against Terminus/Venny? Daredevil.

I do like Cassius against Cryx just because of hellmouth hotness. They also can't get eyeless sight, so his feat works pretty well.

EDIT: Also, witch doctor isn't really a big deal vs. Venethrax. The biggest danger from him is that he eats high fury warbeasts.

[Mattho2k3]

Wormwood is getting souls against Terminus/Venny? Daredevil.

I do like Cassius against Cryx just because of hellmouth hotness. They also can't get eyeless sight, so his feat works pretty well.

EDIT: Also, witch doctor isn't really a big deal vs. Venethrax. The biggest danger from him is that he eats high fury warbeasts.

It was at TempleCon against a PP staff member so not exactly the most competitive game. He went first ran up, I moved up, he went forward popped feat and killed some of my models but many of them were closer to Wurmwood than Terminus. I was able to teleport a shifting stones to Hellmouth and kill the models in front of Terminus, and Teleport the Feral to him.

[PG_Albinoprince]

Use the alternate Kruger theme list. the one that lets you include pEiress. then shoot him once.

Knowing my luck i'm remembering it wrong and it's eEiress...

[Bradigus]

Its pEiryss. And that's a good list against Venethrax because its construct based, but it doesn't hit very hard. The hard part becomes taking out the banes and Tartursauce.

[Bishop84]

Your list seems a bit off. I count 37 points there.

I would recommend something in the eKaya battlegroup heavy type list. Just keep Venethrax away from a Fury hot warpwolf...

[PG_cheddercaveman]

This list is mostly fine. I'd drop the min unit of Wolves to fill out the unit of Bloodtrackers and add the Stone Keeper to a unit of Shifting Stones. At 35 points I'd also weigh the merits of a Druid Wilder over the 2nd unit of Shifting Stones, but its a tough call. With the Gorax and the Stalker being in there I think I'd lean closer to the Wilder honestly. That said, Mohsar is just fine against Warmachine, he just doesn't have a feat against them often. He DOES have a feat against Cryx though because he'll shut down their arcnodes for a turn, which is a little bit corner case, but can be very important.

Based on this list you want Pillars, Pillars and more Pillars. He's got very little in the way of ranged things that can deal with them. Pistol Wraiths can't shoot them because the POW of their gun isn't enough. He could use the Withershadow (since I believe magic attacks work on Pillars) and have a decent chance to knock them out, but then he's using a 5 point character unit to do very little. You want to use Megalith to Geomancy Crevasse as much as you can too. Also, play it pretty cagey with the Stalker and Gorax. I know you don't want 14 points sitting in the back doing very little, but you're probably going to want both of them when you go for the kill with this list. Bloodtrackers should be able to do a number on the Bane Thralls as well.

The thing in general with Mohsar is you have to realize how to use all of the things you have in your arsenal. I know some people won't agree with me, but every single one of his spells is amazing. Sands of Fate doesn't get cast as much anymore with Gallows Groves, but it can be important. Doubly important in the Cryx matchup because Mohsar has Erosion on his melee weapon. Sunhammer is another spell that gets a bad name, but if the game goes long you will slowly grind more damage out than you think, its especially good against Cryx's arcnodes and Legion's Lessers, but don't discount it. Mirage, Curse of Shadows, Pillars of Salt are all going to get a lot of use.

[Bakemono]

And always make sure to space your Warbeasts further apart so that he can never get to more than one.

[nverbe]

Add Witch Doctor, Profit!

You know, ignores even more abilities than . We have a couple units of those those. Woldshrimp all the way! They also have and can kill the pistol wraiths.

With Mohsar drop your initial pillars like 6" away from the thralls, Tartarus requires they charge for the extra movement and you can't charge the pillar. You can really slow them down that way.

[PG_LEJKaya]

Wormwood is getting souls against Terminus/Venny? Daredevil.

Wurmwood is pretty safe vs cryx usually, he only has to be closer than them and he can be behind our infantry. Cassius is one of the top 3 casters in the game to counter eGaspy with his souls and is generally strong against cryx.

Add Witch Doctor, Profit!

Yeah, that model is going to be ubiquitous when its released.

pBaldur theme force has very few souls but that doesn't hit that hard. I also had success against Terminus in a game with Cassius as Wormwood grabbed 5 souls. Denying him those souls and hitting him with Curse of Shadows made it so a Feral with Primal could kill him.

I like this, Baldur1 theme at 50 points should have about 10 souls in total and most will be pretty safe. Baldur2 can have about the same and his usual issues don't exist vs cryx as they have no high ARM stuff (Other than the caster) and Baldur can get to P&S 20+ eventually to kill their caster.

[ringsnake]

I do have to wonder, how did venny get that many souls in a single round? That looks like he practically tabled you to get up to ARM 30. 13 souls or several souls and a fully furied up warpwolf IIRC. It wouldn't matter how much focus he's got if he's wiped most of your force out in a single turn.

It sounds more like you just got outplayed.

Oh, and Defilers(corrosion) and Nightwretches(AOE) both can take down pillars. Biles can take them down like nobody's business. Corrosion attacks take them out, so a single Bile purge can take out all three or four at once. Hence, Mohsar not being a great warlock for taking down Cryx.

[PG_LEJKaya]

A good turn with Soul Harvester will do that if you have some wolves of orboros or bloodtrackers. Add in a beast and its not totally unlikely.

Bile Purges do not damage pillars.

[Vicomte Athos]

Bile Purges do not damage pillars.

But his spray does

[Phatheadaf]

@OP....

I play Cryx as my other faction and a lot of Terminus. Check out my other BR threads from events I've won over the last few months playing Big T exclusively. Will give you some insight into how those casters are getting played.

Regarding your list, and the matter at hand, i disagree that you need to play something different. The battle group is the holy trinity IMHO. Does everything you need. You out threat everything he has. The BTs should have Prey on the Banes, and Tartarus should be removed from the board ASAP. Crevasse gives you the perfect tool for that and WoO are the perfect sacrificial lambs. You can also Geomance it if you wish, but wont need to w Maltreat and a Fury 8 'lock. You can hit Tartarus w/o boosting and kill him on two boosted damage rolls. Once he's off the board the Banes are mitigated.

You should never be giving Venethrax enough souls to get to ARM 30. Also remember the likes of Venny and Terminus lists are not about helping the list; its about delivering them That's why you need to pick the pieces out around them. As you do that, they will be forced to press your position. Once they do that they are exposing themselves. Venny doesn't have the same mechanism to reap souls that Terminus has if you beat up the Banes, especially when they don't have Curse available.

The main advice i can give you is to protect your battle group. If those players are savvy they will offer the Seether as a piece exchange to start whiddling your battle group via followup with Banes. Luckily with access to Lightening Strike you can prevent the counter attack. Ive already addressed how you deal w the Banes.

Now to deal with the Caster, if you've protected the Battlegroup, especially this setup, you have all the tools you need. If we assume ARM 25 which is high side assumption if you played your pieces right, your battlegroup will put Venny or Terminus into the dirt. Mega can trample and Animus to debuff their DEF at a 13" threat range. Of course you then CoS the caster, w Mega if you like. After the Animus you only need the one Fury to Geomance and should stick the spell. Mohsar will get that done if you can't. Then buff a Stalker and sling him in under Primal. Even if he has to burn 1 to charge, you really shouldn't miss an attack, and you will be at dice -3 which is enough damage output to fully push and take him out, plus some extra. In Terminus' case its enough to put him in the dirt even if he makes a tough roll.

That's a long answer to short question, but ultimately you want to mitigate the Banes and dont allow them to pick apart your battle group. Your Mohsar list has plenty available to get it done. As someone who plays the casters your talking about, nobody scares me more than Circle.

Feel free to PM w questions...

A.

[zlygobbo]

Hello,

So i played long time Cryx and then switch to my favorit faction which is Circle. I played Venetrhax a lot especialy against Hordes... He is very compatitive against hordes bud I can give you some advice... First of all i think when you go with blood trackers allways take nuala quick work is graet. Second if you go with list like these you are in little trouble bud you should win... As Phatheadaf sad first kill Tartarus... he makes banes awesome unit... otherwise he cannot charge you efectively and also have poor chance to hit you...

You did some mistakes in my opinion you put probably pillars too forward so the chciken can spray them easyly...
Second you have best tools to protect your army against charges which is megalith animus... Banes cannot get pathfinder or ghostly with venetrax...
So if you kill tartarus. (which is quete difficult if your opponent is not stupid) then you are in half way to win... He have stealth and also high armor...
Then venetrax is killing machine for beasts... He can easyly kill any beast beacuse he have MAT 8 and aslo additional die to damage rolls... Bud you can make trap for him put some damaged beast (megalith) to him so he can charge the beast (the beast cannot have any fury)... When he kills it he will not drain any fury and will spend some focus and then is your chance to kill him with your Stalker...

Once when i played venetrax my opponent did huge mistake i was high focus camping bud i had no other chance then contest obective otherwise i will lose... bud he charge me with 3 heavy beast and didnt kill me every beast had 4 fury and on my turn i killed every beast and finish with more focus then on start... So... my advice is when you go against Venetrax DONT go fury HOT... if you charge him with stalker and are high on fury... then you haveto go with wilder and take all fury down...

You had also a little bit bad matchup because you had 6 wolves of orbors which are easy target.... they have low DEF so he can drain soul tokens preaty easy... He had Scarlock so he can cast to atoher unit soul harvester witouth spending focus and also upkeep it for free with whitter shadow combine... Also remember Seether is very good jack bud he have no chance to kill heavy armor things... He is quite pillow fisted and venetrax do nothing for his army... just for himself...

So next time if you will go with full blood trackers and nuala and you will rid of wolves and one gallows you have preaty high chance to win...

[Brandubh]

Here are my quick thoughts about Venethrax. Firstly, pEiryss (Wake of Destruction) and the Thrullg are both really great against him. Denying him Focus / Souls and dropping Dragon Slayer is pretty key to killing him. But that said, the Bloodweavers can get a similar thing done if you dare get them that close to Venethrax.

Venethrax himself really likes to be up front to maximize his offensive potential and his soul gathering. Sure, he can drop his upkeep on a unit and have them do it for him, but something like Wurmwood will counter that - forcing him to get up close.

That's where we can really trounce him. I've killed Venethrax with a Primaled Shadowhorn Satyr. Since he has to play forward - but is actually pretty squishy without his upkeep & souls, you can mess with your opponent. He's also fairly weak to the Druids fishing him in.

Basically, with Venethrax, you always have to play for the caster kill. If you let him start killing your warbeasts & infantry, you will loose miserably. Caster kill, caster kill early, caster kill often.

[Lord Tyrant peers]

Shame you don't play skorne. any cryx souly shenanigans is stopped for ever by zaal, terminus doesn't get a feat vs zaal full stop. enemy models not being able to take your souls and you decide which corresponding friendly ones do is a massive middle finger to cryx

[SatireSphere]

I rarely have problems with any soul taking armies because most of my Circle armies don't use much infantry, and when I do a good chunk of it is non-living (woldstalkers), or particularly hard to kill (druids in clouds).

[Lamoron]

Shrimps are good for a start, and also neatly counter stealth with the ability to move up, zephyr, and shoot from within 5" without giving up souls when they die. Mohsar can do it if played without using SoF, and Ghetorix with Primal and CoS on a Venethrax makes him go splat unless he has extra Focus camped. Shadowhorn with Mirage can jump behind Venethrax and toss him a fair distance into your lines so you don't have to put Thrullg up where it's dangerous.

[vintersbastard]

Based on this list you want Pillars, Pillars and more Pillars. He's got very little in the way of ranged things that can deal with them. Pistol Wraiths can't shoot them because the POW of their gun isn't enough. He could use the Withershadow (since I believe magic attacks work on Pillars) and have a decent chance to knock them out, but then he's using a 5 point character unit to do very little.

Two of the combine don't have much else to do anyways, so that's not much of a hindrance. And the Skarlock and the Warwitch Siren can add magic attacks as well (the latter even coming with a spray).