How Many Points (or What Percentage) of Support?

[Alzer]

So I've been looking at how much of my army I want to devote to Support in a given points level. So far I've found I'm comfortable with about 1/6th-1/7th of my army being support, maxing at about 1/5th of it. Protectorate has such amazing support options and finding the balance of how MUCH to use is very important.

For support models I'm looking at non-combat-capable, even if there are some models that have strong support effects that can still fight (Errant Seneschal, Gravus come to mind)

So that means: Choir, Wracks, Vassal*, Covenant, Reclaimers*, Heirophants
*Technically capable of effective combat, but way better at support.

I'm thinking for points levels
Pt Level: Max support Pts
15pts: 4pts
25pts: 5pts
35pts: 7pts
50pts: 10pts

Any thoughts on this?

[darisus]

I never really calculate my support to much, but i would say you are pretty close to about what i use in a given list, maybe less for me. I sometimes run lists with just a mechanic for support... My Current Reznik list. I hate having models with little to no killing ability unlsee they provide a really significant advantage (choir, vassal). This may be why i have a decent amount of mercs in alot of lists, as they can double for support with some of there abilities and often have more kill power then our support pieces. An example of this would be to take A&H in a list instead of a choir, so i still get the damage buff in a different form and they have great kill power by themselves.

[paradox]

~20% Give or take.

[Spyde]

When i make any menoth list...

its always..

Choir
Vassel
Vassel (optional depending on list)

Wracks > Heirophant unless i want both. due to the 1 pt cost.

[PG_dungeongod]

I find my support % varies wildly from 'caster to 'caster. I also have found that I take choir less than a lot of people seem to. I have my lists with them, but I have lists without them too. *shrug* It always seems like a balancing act to me, and at 35 points and lower it is hard. At 50, I really feel like the support ratio starts to drop down, because we need about the same as we need at 35 points.

[Soulblighter]

I try to take the least amount of support as possible. Choir and Vassal are pretty much obligatory in all my lists though. So usually that ranges from 15%-20%.

[Snipafist]

20% seems to be the generally agreed upon "you shall not pass!" amount for support. More than that and you've got too many eggs in one basket.

[allenamenvergeben]

Choir is pretty much auto-include if I have more than one jack, but I think the Vassal is a bit overrated. I only take one if I have a vanquisher/repenter available.

[Snipafist]

I think the Vassal is a bit overrated. I only take one if I have a vanquisher/repenter available.

Not to be extremely snarky (just a little, though ), but if you think the Vassal is overrated it means you haven't figured out how to get full use out of it yet. 2 points with Iron Sentinel to keep it surprisingly durable with Ancillary Attack AND Enliven? And it has Arcane Bolt on the off chance you'd ever need it? For TWO points? Hells to the yes. I'd field a Vassal for two points if it just had Ancillary Attack OR Enliven. Both is just all-game-good sweet sweet gravy.

[FearMeMortals]

I've never once broken down my list in to point brackets for aspects like support or warjacks etc.

I build a list that I think will work and then I see if it does. Repeat until victory.

[Lanz]

You take as much support as you feel works. There's no such thing as too much support unless you're at a point of redundancy where you actually can't find a good use for a support model that you've taken.

[Bollster]

I just played a 100pt game with 14 pts of support and it worked great. But one of the choirs felt a little bit redundant because although I had 8 jacks, not all of them were doing something useful each turn. If I run that list again, I might swap out that choir for a combat solo or max one of my units. At the end of the day, a list that works, works. It may have no support or heaps but whatever feels good to you is generally right.

[Alzer]

True enough. I wonder if the amount of support may depend on the Warcaster in question as well? I know I tend to only run 3 odd points of support with Reznik since most of his points are taken up by heavy jacks and a medium-based screening unit, and other than focus support he doesn't really need much help. Though with Vindictus and Kreoss1 I'll run more.

Either way, cheers for the replies folks. I've still got a lot of experimentation to do to find the balance I want either way.

[Lanz]

Support does indeed depend on the warcaster. Not every warcaster will want wracks and/or a Hierophant, for example.

My eKreoss theme list takes no support at all.

[Soulblighter]

Support does indeed depend on the warcaster. Not every warcaster will want wracks and/or a Hierophant, for example.

I dont think thats true. Every warcaster can benefit from taking wracks or a hierophant. Its mostly upto personal preference.

[Lanz]

I dont think thats true. Every warcaster can benefit from taking wracks or a hierophant. Its mostly upto personal preference.

They can all benefit from it, but they won't receive the same value from it. Not every warcaster will be able to justify the 3 points for what Wracks + Heirophant needs. Not evenly anyways.

[paradox]

Hierophant + wracks are how I start the lareg majority of my lists. I love the 2 extra focus. The downside is that Vindy and Thyra tend to feel like they NEED it. The plus side is that most all other 'casters love them. Feora1 is a suprising spell-slinger and gunfighter with them. Feora2 and Reznik tend to feel like they want one or the other, if not both. HR/ToM can be problematic on wracks due to small CTRL. But both love hieropants IMO. Wracks can be made to work with them, though I find ToM tends to Urcaen's Gate out of range too soon to bother with wracks. HR I tend to forego them as Hierophant + sac lamb with surplus choir is more than enough.

[Craaag]

Choir and Vassal make almost every list with the Vassal dropped for Theme lists usually. Wracks only a certainty when filling that extra point or when using Severious1 (as he really needs them maybe as much as he needs BOV).

I've never used Heirophant in anything other than Harbinger games and I've never missed him.

Covenant I haven't used in a while but I've had Gravus in it's place for the no KD Exemplars and not to mention he can kill things bad late game. I don't really think of him as a support piece at all though.

Rhupert has made almost every non theme game I've played over the past few months, almost becoming a crutch for my units like the choir for my jacks.

I'd say I have 5-9 pts of support for 35-50 pt games.

[Soulblighter]

Some people take Hierophant in every single list. I personally cant stand the Hierophant except with Harbinger.

[Lanz]

For me, wracks and heirophant are caster-based. Sure every caster has a use for them, but not every caster needs them. I rarely take a Heirophant with pKreoss, for example, because he does little direct spell-slinging, and typically demands little healing. I generally don't take Wracks with Reznik, because he can make his own, and he moves up the field with a small control zone, so he typically out-ranges any wracks that deployed at the start of the game.

[Vinsklortho]

I run the absolute least amount of support I can get away with. Generally choir and a vassal. At 50 points or with certain lists I might pick up a second vassal. I have a few lists that might have different support needs(Thyra with Wracks/Heiro, Harby with pirate support) but I generally like my lists meaty.