High def hate :(

[swirly]

Hey,
I played a friendly game last night against pKrueger. I used eVlad. 2 chain lightnings and feat later, and most of my assassins and baldy, 2 units of Eliminators, and most of my doom reavers were gone.

Anyone have a good counter to high def hate short of MoW or jack spam?

[MathPasta]

Thats not High Def Hate. Thats just general bad luck and anti infantry problems.

[@Kriegsspiele]

Balancing really helps: I prefer IFUs (16'' threat! DEF 13, ARM 17/19) and IFPs (still a 14'' threat, DEF 13, ARM 14/18) with eVlad.

[MathPasta]

Also, Doom Reavers cannot be targeted by magic attacks.

[@Kriegsspiele]

Also, Doom Reavers cannot be targeted by magic attacks.

pKrueger has a nasty feat with lots of very ugly templates for low ARM units.

[scout's honor]

Anyone have a good counter to high def hate short of MoW or jack spam?

Feat early and get your 4-6 supersolos up in his grill so he can't pick off your models at his leisure. If they get killed they get killed, but the point is they put the pressure on and remove (hopefully a significant) part of your opponent's models. Don't go for the assassination setup, pKrueger will murder your list before you can pull that off. If it comes down to caster vs caster with a couple of loose models alongside in the end, things usually look good for eVlad.

[swirly]

That sounds like real solid advice.
In that game I was about to jam things in preparation for a feat turn assassination. Probably a bad idea.

I was just using my eVlad game as an example though. I'm really after suggestions of a secondary list build to take to a tourney in case an anti high def list comes my way.
I have a solid pButcher kayazy/rifle corps list I use as my go to list, but pKrueger and others are gonna be a real hard match up for that one.

[swirly]

pKrueger has a nasty feat with lots of very ugly templates for low ARM units.

Also, chain lightning came off the stones.

[Shyndaar]

I try not to rely on def. Ive found that most things with high defense have low arm and die quickly. Ive tried Bob and Weaving WGI and then casting Iron Flesh on them (defense 17) and they still get hit regularly all day long.

A lot of it comes down to who youre playing. Knowing how an enemy caster needs to be played helps. Im not familair with pKrueger but if you can figure out what he needs and deny it, then you have a good shot. Some casters rely heavily on support. Some rely on specific solos or things.

As an example, when playing Menoth casters like eSevy or Harbinger, eSevy relies on support units (vassals, hierophant, CHOIR, that goddamn book, etc) and arc node. Get the node or a vassal or some key Choir and it puts them at a huge disadvantage. Harbinger is 10 focus so its very hard to damage her, but if you pick off all her army, its way different. She can martyrdom some models and keep them alive but she takes damage.

Figure out what a caster needs and then kill it do death in the face with an axe. No caster is so well rounded that it can do everything by itself

[Tossy]

Kruger is a jerk to high def, it sounds like you didn't take enough to counter it. Honestly though arm and def are just as easy to get past on single wound models. yes kayazy auto die under the templates and above average rolls will take out the high arm. However a single stalker will take out you IFP just as easily. IFU are a good idea but I don't know your points level. I find them hard to fit in at 35 or under. Really there is not good answer to this question. Kill the stuff you can, look out for the lightning next time. Oh and thank god it wasn't eKruger

[MathPasta]

I woud suggest bringing a arm buffing caster only to sadly realize that we don't have one.

[Aylw]

You can't do anything against pKrueger with high def-based army. You just die a lot. He is THE hard counter to high def armies.

That said, WGIDS still has tough - get in his face. pKrueger is really squishy, so a forward threat can really put him on his back foot and allow you to take objectives. One thing to note, is that pKrueger is not all that great vs high arm, and loses in most fist fights (caster vs lock). If you trade your high def units with his stuff(instead of relying on their high def for favourable attrition), you can come out on top.

Obviously, a more balanced (armour) list would help your game - but if you're set on using high def, you're just going to have to bite the bullet and have a tough match.

[Marth]

I woud suggest bringing a arm buffing caster only to sadly realize that we don't have one.

Your grief with some of our factions shortcomings is, while subjective and your opinion, valid in certain areas. Yet you can't convince me that you didn't know beforehand that we have no armour buffs on any caster (save for Harky, and his is a feat). So there likely was no "sad realisation".

I know I'm also guilty of such overly negative posts, which subtly convey my dislikes about all the shinies the others get. There currently still is quite a level of negativity on this board (of different flavours).
I'm not putting this out there to offend you - you just happen to trigger my response. Because I'm sick of such negativity. We don't need it. It just makes us sick, and bad company. And it's nothing that we can't change. I mean, we can't change the situation - having no ARM-themed casters, a skewed presentation to new gamers, (one of) the least exciting colossal(s), the enemy getting more ways around our main shticks - but we can change how we handle that situation. And I'm not talking about to "suck it up" or such nonsense.

TLDR: Well, that could've been said more objectively...

... but with (all) that being said, I do not know whether higher armour, or an arm buff, would've really helped. Chain lightning at Pow 10 is a real hoser to infantry, Kayazy are only ARM 11 (which, with Arcane Shield, would be 14). And Krueger has so much of that thanks to stupid geomancy shenanigans. So a simple change in Caster wouldn't cut it IMO.

Your best advice is to use Vlad's feat to destroy key elements of the opposing army, then, as you realised. Which are the beasts. If you really were to change your list, you could do switch up some things to go from assassination to attrition. With Vlad Xp, Kayzay are assassination tools, while a MoW Drakhun, Manhunters & Yuri and IFP are attrition tools. The Drakhun will even survive Chain lightning...

[Revengineer]

Is there a write up somewhere on which units work best in attrition vs assasination and how / if those roles change with different casters?

[Marth]

No, I don't think so. Mainly due to the fact that it'd be one heck of a write-up.

[underwaterviuw]

No, I don't think so. Mainly due to the fact that it'd be one heck of a write-up.

True. And I think it would be fallacious to categorize casters as "attrition" or "assassin" casters. True some casters are more geared towards a quick kill and others toward a longer, more methodical game, but some of that is dictated by what you bring in your army as well.

For example, even though pSorscha is usually considered an assassin; bring guns, use feat, kill caster. But realistically, against an experienced opponent, your caster won't always be willing to jump into range for you to easily kill. At that point, you have to switch gears and be patient; use your range to soften them up and wait for them to make a mistake. It's not the standard definition of "attrition", but I think it's an accurate example.

On the other hand, sometimes you're prepared for the long haul with pIrusk, but everything's going pear-shaped and there's a Scythian tearing though your lines. Well, then it's time to use what you have to go for broke and try to end the game quickly. Bulldoze enemies out of combat, throw some Battle Lust on a Drakhun or some Demo Corps, and see what you can do.

Point is, every [Khador] list should have both Assassination and Attrition in mind. Depending on who you go against, you'll have different roles for your different pieces.

[quindraco]

Hey,
I played a friendly game last night against pKrueger. I used eVlad. 2 chain lightnings and feat later, and most of my assassins and baldy, 2 units of Eliminators, and most of my doom reavers were gone.

Anyone have a good counter to high def hate short of MoW or jack spam?

Generically speaking, when using an eVlad list against high def hate, you have to do one of the following:

1) Assassinate the high def hate threat. For example, if you are facing a Cygnar list, killing Ryan should be a very high priority, and worth giving up a risky warcaster assassination for.
2) Use threat saturation. When facing an enemy list with a lot of AOEs, you need to hope you kept your point efficiency good enough to take the hits on the approach, and run into the shots - ideally you simply have too many bodies to kill before the gunfight is over and it's melee time.

In your example, you were actually in a reasonable position after the spells and feat, assuming this game had more points in it, since you still had the rest of your list, and eVlad with a well-chosen eVlad list on half models is still an incredibly potent threat. My recommendation would have been method 2 - give him so many models to kill that he simply runs out of juice, then use whatever's left to punch Krueger right in the face until he dies.

[scout's honor]

In your example, you were actually in a reasonable position after the spells and feat, assuming this game had more points in it, since you still had the rest of your list, and eVlad with a well-chosen eVlad list on half models is still an incredibly potent threat.

Bear in mind he'd lost both his Eliminator units and the Underboss. I'm not so sure his position was still so reasonable with his movement shenanigans options gone and, from a later post of his, still only getting ready to jam in preparation of an assassination attempt. Being down 20 (if we're talking 2 units of Doomies) or so points against a largely untouched list, without Acrobatics to allow you to bypass that, puts quite a crimp in your possibilities to get to pKrueger.

[quindraco]

Bear in mind he'd lost both his Eliminator units and the Underboss. I'm not so sure his position was still so reasonable with his movement shenanigans options gone and, from a later post of his, still only getting ready to jam in preparation of an assassination attempt. Being down 20 (if we're talking 2 units of Doomies) or so points against a largely untouched list, without Acrobatics to allow you to bypass that, puts quite a crimp in your possibilities to get to pKrueger.

I just assumed one unit of DRs, which I shouldn't have done, I suppose. But I've definitely lost half of a 35 point eVlad list before and still won without acrobatics, especially the half he's describing, because that leaves e.g. 2 manhunters and a MoW Drakhun as feat targets, which easily equals at least one dead heavy. Still difficult, but reasonable.

[swirly]

This was my list.


Vladimir Tzepesci, Dark Champion* +5 points
* Behemoth* 13 points
* War Dog* 1 point

Doom Reavers* 6 points
* Greylord Escort* 2 points
10 Kayazy Assassins* 8 points
* Kayazy Underboss* 2 points
Kayazy Eliminators* 3 points
Kayazy Eliminators* 3 points
Manhunter* 2 points

At the end of turn 2, I had vlad, a crippled behemoth with only movement and cortex left, about 4 assassins with no underboss, 2 doom reavers and UA (UA and 1 DR were knocked down after tough checks) and the puppy.

He had 4 Druids, 2 stones, a feral, a stalker, a nearly untouched max bloodweavers.

[DemonCalibre]

I think that is an army design issue.

If you build an army that gets steam rolled by power 10 templates playing against pKreuger means you will generally get steam rolled. Swap those Doom Reavers, for Iron Fangs, and watch him sweat like a boss, when his realizes he has to work for it.

[quindraco]

This was my list.


Vladimir Tzepesci, Dark Champion* +5 points
* Behemoth* 13 points
* War Dog* 1 point

Doom Reavers* 6 points
* Greylord Escort* 2 points
10 Kayazy Assassins* 8 points
* Kayazy Underboss* 2 points
Kayazy Eliminators* 3 points
Kayazy Eliminators* 3 points
Manhunter* 2 points

At the end of turn 2, I had vlad, a crippled behemoth with only movement and cortex left, about 4 assassins with no underboss, 2 doom reavers and UA (UA and 1 DR were knocked down after tough checks) and the puppy.

He had 4 Druids, 2 stones, a feral, a stalker, a nearly untouched max bloodweavers.

I suggest a rematch with the following list changes - your list looks fun to play and I am not insulting it, but I think this will do a better job of teaching you how to use threat saturation to your best advantage.

Behemoth: Fantastic Assail target, but expensive. Swap for Drago, Yuri, and a second Manhunter.
Doom Reavers w/ UA: Very effective feat target, but difficult to deliver. Swap for Fenris and a Drakhun; since this is too expensive, drop the war dog.

This is definitely not necessarily the best eVlad list - I myself prefer to shoehorn in Saxon to Pathfinder the Kayazies, for example, which I haven't done above to keep things simple. It's also completely valid to squeeze in the Great Bears somewhere, and Uhlans are a completely separate conversation in eVlad's context. I just think the above list more readily lends itself to having the entire army threaten the enemy at once, which is what you need, so Krueger simpler can't kill enough fast enough.

[swirly]

That's solid eVlad advice. eVlad isn't my main list though.
I'm mainly after advice to help out building a secondary list to complement a first high def list.
2 lists that can be crippled by mass pow 10s is just asking for trouble against chain lightning, ashes to ashes etc.

If it helps, here's my bread and butter list:

The Butcher of Khardov* +6 points
* Spriggan* 10 points
* War Dog* 1 point

Gorman Di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist* 2 points
Harlan Versh, Illuminated One* 2 points
10 Kayazy Assassins* 8 points
* Kayazy Underboss* 2 points
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich* 2 points
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt* 4 points
Saxon Orrik* 2 points
10 Winter Guard Rifle Corps* 8 points

I was just using eVlad as an example because that's who I was using at the time, but the same could apply to any light infantry-heavy list.

[Goyder]

Have you tried Irusk2 with heaps of Man-O-Wars?

[The Buoyancy of Water]

Get a drakhun in there and chuck a SPD10 ARM22 dragoon down his throat

[quindraco]

I was just using eVlad as an example because that's who I was using at the time, but the same could apply to any light infantry-heavy list.

Well, you'll note I also recommended some models that weren't as def-reliant as Kayazies - Fenris and the Drakhun for sure rely on boxes, armor, and Tough, and instead of ducking blows with DEF, use their SPD to be too far away to hit if possible. Yuri&Co have the same ARM and DEF, and the Bears are decidedly more ARM reliant (and also very fragile as a result, but still). This wasn't really deliberate, since I build an eVlad list by focusing on solos first and small units second, but it nonetheless means that I've never fielded an eVlad list without a touch of ARM loving (especially since Drago and/or Behemoth are always there). A mixed infantry approach might be your friend; your bread and butter list actually has LESS ARM loving in it, largely due to containing 5 mercenary models who haven't heard of body armor on top of a DEF reliant unit and a Tough reliant unit.