Rant cause I do not know where else to put it

[Mastervalrik]

Dont want to put where i am talking about in here, because Ill be a dead give away. Anyway I found a local gaming store, which is great because I havent lived near one in years always had to travel, well I moved here about 4 months ago and my GF found one, bad news the local gaming group is turned off by P-Press, several of them seem so closed minded and all they pretty much play is 40 something. I talked an offered to put together a demo of Warmachine or Hordes and the owner said no thanks, which boggled me cause if the game takes off would generate more business for his shop. The owner said we are welcome to use the tables to Warhordes but almost looked like he had a sour taste in his mouth. I can understand players maybe not liking a game but an owner, if you can expand or make money why wouldnt you.

I am sorry it is just a little dishearting to see this, espically from an owner who said, we stickly run 40 something.

[MathPasta]

Sucks. Seriously, Its one thing you telling "40 something sucks! WH is better! >=P" but its another thing altogether to refuse something new.

[PG_relasine]

Something that is important to keep in mind is that many game store owners behave like gamers first and business owners second. It's a big reason why so many of them fail and close their doors after a few years.

[deademon]

open a shop right next to his and hold all the wm/h stuff and 40k stuff. you wont sell and 40 stuff, but people will come in to play wm stuff and the community would be better for not being so close minded.

[PG_Deist]

My suggestion, take him up on his offer and start playing there. Eventually, others may become interested. He may eventually see that there is a calling for the product and may at least allow players to order it. Many LGS's have some animosity between GW players and PP players. It is just something you have to work through and commit to being fair to both systems. Definitely avoid GW bashing as it is a good way to turn off the owner and potential friends and players.

[PG_Azhdeen]

As someone who has never played GW games, I keep hearing these things and makes me so much happier to play Warmachine/Hordes. If you can't be nice and play nice, don't bother playing at all.....or owning a shop for that matter.

[Cannibalbob]

As someone who has never played GW games, I keep hearing these things and makes me so much happier to play Warmachine/Hordes. If you can't be nice and play nice, don't bother playing at all.....or owning a shop for that matter.

To be fair, I see people invested in any gaming system that are as close-minded and opposed to different games as the people described in the OP. I see people who play PP games that won't give any other game or its players the time of day. There are GW players that won't branch out. This sort of thing is not reserved for just Warhammer 40k players. There are people who think any video game that is not on the Xbox is a terrible game. There are people that think any sports team that is not their current favorite is a terrible team. There are people who will only drink one kind of beer and think everything else is bad even without trying new ones. Or people that claim to hate certain types of food despite not ever having tried it.

This sort of thing is just people being people.

[DoctorEvil]

What other products does this store sell? Is 40K the only miniature game they sell?

Is it possible that the owner does not consider his store to be a gaming store, but considers it to be something else? (Comic Book/Collectible card game store?)

[Domoto]

Sorry to hear that, I can relate. The only LGS close to me is a 30 min drive...and it's pretty much GW only. At one time it did carry PP, plenty of Board games, FoW and others but the shop has moved locations 3 times since I knew it, and gotten smaller and smaller, and is now pretty much a GW and MTG only store. The problem is that the regulars are pretty much all elitist's who if it's not a GW game or MTG, it's not worth anyone's time. There is the same "you can use the tables" stance...but it's almost not worth it since even if someone get's interested, it will only be bashed by the regulars... It's really disheartening because I think I would almost rather have no LGS at all then a place like that. *Hugz*

As someone who has never played GW games, I keep hearing these things and makes me so much happier to play Warmachine/Hordes. If you can't be nice and play nice, don't bother playing at all.....or owning a shop for that matter.

To be fair, plenty of people have gotten their start in one of the GW games (I one of them) and they can be enjoyable, it's all about who you play with and how you play

[scout's honor]

... which boggled me cause if the game takes off would generate more business for his shop.

Thing is - and I'm not saying he'd be right about it - he may feel the opposite could be true. Disregarding (though it shouldn't be) the fact that a hobbyist's spending habits are regulated much more by his or her budget than by the minimal investment to get into a game, one might get the idea that there's more profit to be made on GW stuff (more money needed to buy the models for a list means more money for the store owner). It's usually also more profitable to have one large group of people all doing the same and egging each other on than to have two smaller groups that each do their own thing, and shelf space to put products for a new game line doesn't magically appear from nowhere when it's needed either.

Again, I'm not saying it's the right conclusion to come to but arguments can be made for not wanting to have someone try and start up PP gaming at the store.

[Lich_Lord_X]

To be fair most 40k players are bitter about people coming in and changing things. Especially since hardcore 40k players probably have spent thousands of dollars on the game. I rarely see people who play both games (probably because once you play WM/H you realize how awful 40k is.) You can't go in there and change people's minds, especially 40k fanboys, they have to be loyal to GW to justify the ridiculous time and money wasted.

[Lord Tyrant peers]

Thats a bit silly to be honest. I'm lucky enough to live within a 10 minute walk from an indy store which sells and promotes H/WM 40k/fantasy FoW Warhammer historical TCG's malifaux bushido and much more and about 75/80% of the people who game there play H/WM and GW games as thier "core" systems with other games like bushido and malifaux as supplimental games. I like i said i'm lucky

[Domoto]

(probably because once you play WM/H you realize how awful 40k is.)

No need to bash other gaming system's on the forums

[Lich_Lord_X]

No need to bash other gaming system's on the forums

At this point it's not a matter of opinion lol. I like WHFB and if they'd just adapt those rules to 40k I might actually bust out my Space Wolves. 6th Edition has some cool stuff but it's still a generic, dumbed-down rules system.

Edit: Also go on Warseer and see how much time gets spent on bashing PP. We are saints on these boards haha.

[DoctorEvil]

6th Edition has some cool stuff but it's still a generic, dumbed-down rules system.

....and that's why I still like 40k Simple rules create a simple game and sometimes I need a simple game.

[Domoto]

At this point it's not a matter of opinion lol. I like WHFB and if they'd just adapt those rules to 40k I might actually bust out my Space Wolves. 6th Edition has some cool stuff but it's still a generic, dumbed-down rules system.

Edit: Also go on Warseer and see how much time gets spent on bashing PP. We are saints on these boards haha.

I know full well what goes on there...but that is for their Mod's/Playerbase to regulate. Bashing is bashing, regardless of the amount, so let's not have any reach epic saint level

[urtho]

I am lucky enough to live in a multistore area. One store has a large GW fanbase, firmly entrenched, though they are willing to play other games. The store also stocks PP products, but only 6 feet of the ~50' wall. The other has a lot of people who play PP as a primary, but also branch off into most other tabletop games. That store has very little GW product as it doesn't sell well enough to justify the minimum required stock levels to be a GW stor, but they have 16' of PP in a very tight space. Those are also just the stores within ~20 minutes of me. But I guess that is one of the benefits of living where I do.

[MagnustheJust]

I personally never understood the "This store is for ______ players only!!" mentality... Silly really.

When the heads of Temple Con opened up Temple Games, a guy came in and asked right to the owner's face, I kid you not -

"Is this going to be a 40K or Warmachine store?"

Upon being informed it would cater to both games, the replied that was impossible and left looking confused...

Now I won't lie and say there is a balance of in-store players for both {PP is ahead}, but customers for both games always seem to find what they need there, or get it ordered!!

[Ravenshadow]

Miniature wargaming is expensive, if you're heavily invested in one system it can be too much trouble to start another. New rules, new models, painting new armies, finding new opponents. Some people are kinda shy and like to stick with the groups they're comfortable with.

The game owner might not be interested in branching out. If he's got a large group of regular players that might be enough. The best suggestion is the guy who said to start bring your PP stuff and playing. If you end up generating a decent sized group he'll probably be more supportive.

Personally if I was an owner and some guy just walks in off the street and offers to demo a game that none of my core players seemed interested in I'd say no too. Show him there's some interest in the system first and he'll change his mind.

[HeadHunter]

Remember that all the stock in a store is an investment by the owner, and then you may understand why someone might be reluctant to branch his business out into a "new" game (that is to say, one that's not played there already).

You need to find people in the area who already play, and go play there. Ask him if he'll special order the product you need - that way, he's not taking a risk on stock that might not sell. Look at this from a business perspective and you just might find it mutually beneficial.

[Mustakrakish]

Something that is important to keep in mind is that many game store owners behave like gamers first and business owners second. It's a big reason why so many of them fail and close their doors after a few years.

So much this!

Op: your best bet is to just use his game space with whomever you can wrangle, make sure you have fully painted models, and always play with a smile on your face. Make sure you ask the owner to special order things for you from their distributor so he can SEE how much money he can make, and having as much painted as possible increases the wow factor for passers by. The smile on your face will show you are having loads of fun (and will be put there because you will constantly be hearing people argue over the nuances of the word "immediately" in 40 something rules...)

I suggest always having a battle box ready to loan so that you CAN throw down a demo game when someone sees you for the 5th time having a blast... Then is when you can sell them on the lower barrier to entry and suggest they ask the owner to special order a box for them.... eventually you will get some converts.

Remember, NEVER disparage other game systems. Warmachine and hordes are MORE than capable to stand on their own merits. Other people may poopoo it, but as they say on the internet: "Haters gonna hate"

[Nayuka66]

With Warhammer 40,000 you have the 6th edition that just came out. as opposed to Warhordes that JUST releeased 2nd edition about 2 years ago (forgive me but still a bit new so pls dont harp on the exact time). Also people do get comfortable with certain game systems regardless of the PISS POOR decisions GW has been making as of late. I would do your best to try a few times to see if anyone would be interested. One thing i know that people are turned on to Warhords is the COST, GW right now just jacked its price up for 6th edition another 15$ for a RULE BOOK making it 75-80$ alone. Not to metion to get a decent 1500 point army (about 25 points for us) takes almost double the cost due to other price hikes. YES the models do come with a lot of detail and thought (not to say PiP hasn't) but its becoming increasingly difficult to buy and keep going when prices just go up and up. 2nd thing that might interest people is the System. Rather than having individual rules for some models and units that 40k has there is a BASE set of rules each model adheres to so its easier to check on rules. Also Even special rules fall into some category or another. There are a few with special rules but not nearly as many as 40k has come up with. 3rd option: THE FLUFF as it is know to some, from what i hear each author has his own idea of 40k of what is happening but sadly there are a LOT of authors and a lot of inconsistency's to it. While PiP is a lot smaller and more concise about what it does and less errors.

this is just the 3 major things i have noticed why people switch over. And again to what someone said earlier "Gamers 1st Business owners 2nd" but again being a business owner allows you to work that way. 40k has been around for a LONG time and so has war-hammer fantasy another avenue of what you might be competing with. Always keep an open mind and be as polite as possible. who knows someone might walk in one day when you are demoing and suddenly "OMG YOU PLAY TOO! YES FINALLY me and my buddy have been waiting forever!" and bam that's 3 people who can play in your area. just gotta wait and don't quit on what you really could see work in your area. Also asking around town helps too about any other stores although from what i am seeing they are few and far between.

[Jake the Dog]

It is a simple matter, if a Store owner is smug at me or let's people be smug to me for playing X, I'm taking my business elsewhere, even if it is the Internet.

[jlav]

My question from the original post is this: What are you looking for in a local game shop? There are a few things I find in my list - Access to models, Community, Knowledge base

#1 Access to models - Tons of places to source online, but yes I prefer to buy local because it supports #2
#2 Community - Events, and a community of individuals to talk games, bounce ideas and learn tips for painting or other parts of the gaming hobby
#3 Knowledge base - Rules clarification, playing styles and aids, you can learn a ton, while having fun

From what you've described, none of these things for me would be met in such a shop, and I have found that a local gaming group started by my friends choosing to play a game as a part of our community (notice the order of events, Friends first, games second) has lead to attracting new players and new friends. We source where we can, find great community and have a solid knowledge base in resources like this forum and each other. This is something that ... well in the days of other unnamed games, couldn't be facilitated without a LGS that encouraged our chosen game. - Significantly more limited sourcing and more difficult resources since it's online presence refuses to have an official endorsed communication with its players.

I'm not saying in any way that you don't play at the shop, but that you consider what it is you're hoping to find there.

[Rukus]

I'm kinda surprised that they more or less gave you the cold shoulder going into a store looking to get into something. It wasn't a GW shop was it, hahah. There are very few brick and mortar stores that can survive only promoting one product these days especially now the internet retailers offer so many good deals on the same game systems. I would love to own a game store if it was able to make money, but it's really hard to do that now. But rest assured I would promote every game system just because you have to be able to build a customer base that will keep coming back, but shutting the door on just one of those games could spell disaster for you.

[Mastervalrik]

What other products does this store sell? Is 40K the only miniature game they sell?

Is it possible that the owner does not consider his store to be a gaming store, but considers it to be something else? (Comic Book/Collectible card game store?)

GW is the only mini line he carries, but does have comics as well as card games such as L5R, Magic.

My question from the original post is this: What are you looking for in a local game shop? There are a few things I find in my list - Access to models, Community, Knowledge base

#1 Access to models - Tons of places to source online, but yes I prefer to buy local because it supports #2
#2 Community - Events, and a community of individuals to talk games, bounce ideas and learn tips for painting or other parts of the gaming hobby
#3 Knowledge base - Rules clarification, playing styles and aids, you can learn a ton, while having fun

From what you've described, none of these things for me would be met in such a shop, and I have found that a local gaming group started by my friends choosing to play a game as a part of our community (notice the order of events, Friends first, games second) has lead to attracting new players and new friends. We source where we can, find great community and have a solid knowledge base in resources like this forum and each other. This is something that ... well in the days of other unnamed games, couldn't be facilitated without a LGS that encouraged our chosen game. - Significantly more limited sourcing and more difficult resources since it's online presence refuses to have an official endorsed communication with its players.

I'm not saying in any way that you don't play at the shop, but that you consider what it is you're hoping to find there.

I took my son there tonight, we played a game of 40 something against each other, met some people talked, and brought up Warmachine/Hordes one player said he didnt like what Warmachines was the flufy I guess, the other said he tried it last year and said the game seems too dynamic warcasters spells etc. seems OP, also said he didnt like the idea of your leader dying and the game being over.

I grew up in a LGS and they catered to everything, I believe in supporting LGS, I think they are great place to meet people into the hobby, I love War-Hordes, I also like 40 something, but fed up with the price hikes and the constent rules change for the sake of making money. I did buy some paint from the store as well as a White Midget magazine, I was just so suprised to hear how closed minded people are or appear to be about the two hobbies but as some one said Xbox or PS3 which is better...

[Sygerrik]

Something that is important to keep in mind is that many game store owners behave like gamers first and business owners second. It's a big reason why so many of them fail and close their doors after a few years.

Ugh, there are too many LGSes which are very obviously just Some Gamer who decided to open his own store to have a place to play. They don't know the first thing about business and they are very unwelcoming to customers. I'm glad when these stores close because it clears the way for really good LGSes.

[HRM]

Magic: The Gathering is the big money-maker, anyway, isn't it?

[Murkhadh]

My suggestion, take him up on his offer and start playing there. Eventually, others may become interested. He may eventually see that there is a calling for the product and may at least allow players to order it. Many LGS's have some animosity between GW players and PP players. It is just something you have to work through and commit to being fair to both systems. Definitely avoid GW bashing as it is a good way to turn off the owner and potential friends and players.

This, just get a friend and play. People will visit our store and walk up to us playing and ask about warmachine and hordes all the time, and there are often people who used to or currently play the other game. About half the time we end up demoing the game and they ended up buying models.

Basically let the game sell itself.

[computertrucker]

As someone who has never played GW games, I keep hearing these things and makes me so much happier to play Warmachine/Hordes. If you can't be nice and play nice, don't bother playing at all.....or owning a shop for that matter.

There is no difference there are just as many warmahordes players, actually probably more that will sit there and bad mouth 40k/warhammer. As many of this crowd are jaded gamers who have made a move over.

[DoctorEvil]

Actually, I could see where an established store would be resistance to adding WM/H.

Between WM & H the amount of product SKU's is huge. I know of very few store that stock the complete product line. Most carry a set amount of product that sells well (or that they hope sells well)

Adding this game requires a signifcant amount of shelf /floor space to display it for an established store (even if you're only selling a set amount of product). Most established stores don't have empty shelf space, so that means WM/H needs to replace something else. As long as the established product on the shelf is moving and making money, there would be no reason to reaplace with the "unknown" factor of a new mini game.

[PG_Kaptajn Congoboy]

Find local WM/H players (or convert at few), play games at the store, have them ask the store owner to order PP stuff (which he can do without carrying the full range, usually - i depends on his distributor). Get two battleboxes for demos if you don't have them already. Have a positive attitude. Don't badmouth other games, it never helps - unless people spesifically ask your opinion, of course, that is something else. In short - start building community.

Don't worry, eventually you will generate some interest, even if it is from people outside the usual player circle at the store. At least, it worked for me. Now WM/H is the largest game at my FLGS and people are starting to branch out into other systems as well - Infinity (which I also play), Dystopian Wars, etc.

[Griffin745]

Dont want to put where i am talking about in here, because Ill be a dead give away. Anyway I found a local gaming store, which is great because I havent lived near one in years always had to travel, well I moved here about 4 months ago and my GF found one, bad news the local gaming group is turned off by P-Press, several of them seem so closed minded and all they pretty much play is 40 something. I talked an offered to put together a demo of Warmachine or Hordes and the owner said no thanks, which boggled me cause if the game takes off would generate more business for his shop. The owner said we are welcome to use the tables to Warhordes but almost looked like he had a sour taste in his mouth. I can understand players maybe not liking a game but an owner, if you can expand or make money why wouldnt you.

I am sorry it is just a little dishearting to see this, espically from an owner who said, we stickly run 40 something.

It does seem a little extreame. I have to ask, is this LGS a Games Workshop? Cause you know...that'd kinda explain it.

[Tyr852]

If it was a GW the owner wouldn't have offered to let him play Warmahordes at all there.

[Griffin745]

Hence 'kinda' and the smiley. It was a jibe at the extreme reaction of the owner.

[Drzombieface]

I have to travel from Garland to Plano every week cuz the stores close to me are almost exclusively WHF/40K. I'm just glad it's not that bad of a commute.

[MaGoff]

This is a sad but interesting thread. I'm a LGS owner myself and a couple of years ago we were in a somewhat similar situation. The difference is that we embraced Warmahordes and started a gaming campaign where players started playing very small games (just 5p). Each month we added another 5p and in the end the players had a complete 50p army.

During those 10 months we gradually cut down the the space dedicated to GW and gave it to PP products. In hindsight this is probably one of the smartest moves we've made, business wise. Our Warmahordes community is thriving and still growing rapidly which means that we actually have a larger turnover and better margins on our miniatures sales than we had before. I just regret that we didn't do it earlier

So, why did we make those decisions? Why did we decide to slowly steer away from those games that we had played and loved (and made money from) for so long? Well, it was not because of the price hikes and not because of opinions on which game system is the best. Higher prices meant more money for us (and GW of course) and an opinion on rules really is just an opinion.

The deciding factors came when GW enforced their new Trade Terms back in 2009. Those Terms essentially aimed at making independent retailers into GW puppets and gave them some really bizarre rights towards us as their customers (that's a whole chapter by itself, please don't get me started on that...). And to get any kind of benefits like POS material, promo stuff, event support, etc. they demanded us to agree and sign an 'all of the above' form and send them a paper copy of that 'agreement'.

At about the same time GW (Trade), at least here in Europe, went through a drastical downgrade in several areas, such as service, information, product knowledge and general understanding (and interest) of the gaming community. Needless to say, we never signed that Trade Agreement and today I couldn't be happier about that. My recommendation to all retailers out there is to make the same leap we did, if they have not done so yet, and the sooner the better.

For me it was a rough time, game wise, in the beginning. I had been playing 40 something and Hammerwar since the early Second Age and it took me lots and lots of games to get my head around the very different gameplay of Warmahordes. But eventually I started to see all the finesse and brilliant logics. I started to appreciate the dynamics and the tense but tender balance of Warcasters and Warlocks. I realised that these games and the company behind them have a very high standard of both rules design, miniatures, errata update, community support, retail support, product release schedule and product pre-release information compared to the games I had played and sold before.

Nowadays, when a customer is interested in wargaming I always show them Warmahordes, and I have no problems in answering their questions and explaining to them why Warmahordes are among the best of the best table top games on the market. And why some of the other big games really doesn't even come close.

So, if you know a retailer who is hesitating, please tell them to give me call and I'll be happy to give them my side of the story. Businessman to businessman

[Murkhadh]

Wow, very informative post MaGoff

[MaGoff]

Wow, very informative post MaGoff

Glad you liked it. Hopefully the OP will read it and maybe get some ideas of how to convince his LGS into trying PP.

[Mastervalrik]

This is a sad but interesting thread. I'm a LGS owner myself and a couple of years ago we were in a somewhat similar situation. The difference is that we embraced Warmahordes and started a gaming campaign where players started playing very small games (just 5p). Each month we added another 5p and in the end the players had a complete 50p army.

During those 10 months we gradually cut down the the space dedicated to GW and gave it to PP products. In hindsight this is probably one of the smartest moves we've made, business wise. Our Warmahordes community is thriving and still growing rapidly which means that we actually have a larger turnover and better margins on our miniatures sales than we had before. I just regret that we didn't do it earlier

So, why did we make those decisions? Why did we decide to slowly steer away from those games that we had played and loved (and made money from) for so long? Well, it was not because of the price hikes and not because of opinions on which game system is the best. Higher prices meant more money for us (and GW of course) and an opinion on rules really is just an opinion.

The deciding factors came when GW enforced their new Trade Terms back in 2009. Those Terms essentially aimed at making independent retailers into GW puppets and gave them some really bizarre rights towards us as their customers (that's a whole chapter by itself, please don't get me started on that...). And to get any kind of benefits like POS material, promo stuff, event support, etc. they demanded us to agree and sign an 'all of the above' form and send them a paper copy of that 'agreement'.

At about the same time GW (Trade), at least here in Europe, went through a drastical downgrade in several areas, such as service, information, product knowledge and general understanding (and interest) of the gaming community. Needless to say, we never signed that Trade Agreement and today I couldn't be happier about that. My recommendation to all retailers out there is to make the same leap we did, if they have not done so yet, and the sooner the better.

For me it was a rough time, game wise, in the beginning. I had been playing 40 something and Hammerwar since the early Second Age and it took me lots and lots of games to get my head around the very different gameplay of Warmahordes. But eventually I started to see all the finesse and brilliant logics. I started to appreciate the dynamics and the tense but tender balance of Warcasters and Warlocks. I realised that these games and the company behind them have a very high standard of both rules design, miniatures, errata update, community support, retail support, product release schedule and product pre-release information compared to the games I had played and sold before.

Nowadays, when a customer is interested in wargaming I always show them Warmahordes, and I have no problems in answering their questions and explaining to them why Warmahordes are among the best of the best table top games on the market. And why some of the other big games really doesn't even come close.

So, if you know a retailer who is hesitating, please tell them to give me call and I'll be happy to give them my side of the story. Businessman to businessman

See stories like this make me smile, I really dont care which way people play, 40 something or War/Hordes we are all gamers and I think any LGS should be open to carry both lines (well even if they cant carry it, atleast be open to having it in your place) putting a demo cant hurt you, if it flops then its on the guy who did the demo, the LGS can say hey we were being open to new games for our area but as you can see this is why we dont carry this line, if it works, then you stand to make money when people look to have stuff ordered to play the game. I really do not see a down side to a LGS being open about a new line for the area. I am working on getting my brother, son to go play on a weekend so we can atleast be seen, if the LGS doesnt want to budge I would still like to get Warhordes out there in hopes of getting even a small group of people to play in our area.