SR2012 Oops. ATTN: SR2012 neophytes & EOs

[pavel0]

So I'm a really inexperienced player, but decided it'd be fun to go ahead and try playing in a SR2012 tournament (probably my first mistake).

I had my 35 point list ready, or so I thought, and right before the tournament started I heard we needed reinforcements for the first scenario. I had no idea about reinforcements, this being my first SR. Since I only had the models for my 35 point list, I had to withdraw. So word to the wise, read the "Player Responsibilities" section of the rules and p. 9 before showing up. When the EO says 35 point SR2012 tournament he really means a 35/42 point SR2012 tournament.

I thought I could learn how the tournament worked simply by showing up to a 35 point tourney with a 35 point list and playing in it, and I was dead wrong.

SR2012 is not for casual players or beginners. I'll probably stick to journeyman leagues for now since they don't require 37 pages of additional rules. (or maybe they do and I'm in for yet another unpleasant surprise...)

I think a simple fix for this problem would be to include the reinforcements in the required list size; as in, "This Sat. we're having a 50/60 SR2012 Tournament." A new player would see two numbers and ask the right questions. (besides "What the hell am I thinking entering a 50 point tournament?") If I had known to bring a 42 point list I would have been able to play. Granted, this only matters for the uninitiated but everyone was a first timer once.


Any snark is purely intentional.

[PG_ICleadpeople]

Wow! I am surprised they didnt let you play. You could have just been down the points in the scenarios that used that artifice. It is standard practice to post the tournement requiremants before hand.

[PG_Ghool]

Wow! I am surprised they didnt let you play. You could have just been down the points in the scenarios that used that artifice. It is standard practice to post the tournement requiremants before hand.

I agree. When I run a tournament that will use a scenario requiring reinforcements, I will make sure everyone knows to bring them.

Some folks will travel quite a ways to play in a tournament, and disallowing you from playing because they didn't clearly define the list requirements is not the best way to encourage new players to join in. If one of the guys north of here showed up after driving 1.5 hours to play, and realizes he doesn't have the required models, I doubt if he'd come again to one of my tournaments if I didn't let him play.

They should have let you play anyways, as you would have been at a slight disadvantage at worst.

[MagnustheJust]

Indeed!! Whomever was running this tourney kinda dropped
the {bowling} ball {on their foot}...

[absent]

it is a good idea to start listing tournaments as 35/42 and 50/60 though just to make sure people bring the right stuff =)

[jlav]

In this area, I'm pretty sure the shop owner would have opened his display case and even loaned you the right models. This is very surprising to me. I hope your experiences are better in the future.

[captainspud]

Even though reinforcements are the default assumption in SR2012, our venue still lists whether or not reinforcements are a possibility in the format description when we post an event. It's quite common for people at our venue to only bring the handful of models they'll need, so if we don't list it, people often forget.

[Luthon]

I would also like artificers be printed with the scenario or in bigger letters or have the TO highlight it. It really sucks to be having a fun time then at the end realize that there was a whole other set of rules you were suppose to be using, or lose because of it. I know this is solved by reading carefully but when you got so many other things on your mind you can tend to forget what the artificer rules were.

[PG_Duckboy]

Reinforcements (As far as I know) are completely optional and are not required for you to include them in your lists.

pecified in the list and cannot change between rounds.
SR2012 contains scenarios that use reinforcements. Reinforcements are additional models added to a
player’s army list(s) only for scenarios that have the reinforcements artifice. These models and their points
must be shown on a player’s army list(s) in case a reinforcements scenario is played. Detailed rules for
reinforcements are found in the Artifices section (p. 9)

Players must bring two legible copies of all their army lists complete with point costs. Army list point totals cannot exceed the point size chosen for the game and cannot fall more than 2 points under the point size
chosen for the event. Players must incorporate all bonus warjack or warbeast points in their army list(s) point
total. A 50-point Kaelyssa army, for example, must include 55 to 57 points of models

So, you are not required to take reinforcements, you just play at a disadvantage.


I guess I should say, this is how in interpret the rule.

[PG_Stevo]

You shouldn't have been forced to withdraw from the tournament. Reinforcements are totally optional.

[Mustakrakish]

You shouldn't have been forced to withdraw from the tournament. Reinforcements are totally optional.

They are required, but optional to use

This was a very poor choice by the TO at that venue. Im a casual player who has played in a couple of tournaments and have learned quite a bit by doing so.

[PG_Duckboy]

They are required, but optional to use

This was a very poor choice by the TO at that venue. Im a casual player who has played in a couple of tournaments and have learned quite a bit by doing so.

They are not required, Unless this was missed at Lock N' Load, in which I played through the Blood, sweat and Tier tournament without having them down on my sheet.

And it clearly states, Additional models and it doesn't state they are required in the paragraph I quoted from SR2012.

[Disruption]

I played in the tournament today that im pretty sure this guy is talking about, the TO offered to round up models to use, even tho they were only used for the first round. I also didn't know about reinforcements ( think they are kinda dumb but w/e ) and he was able to hook me up with stuff

[Mustakrakish]

They are not required, Unless this was missed at Lock N' Load, in which I played through the Blood, sweat and Tier tournament without having them down on my sheet.

And it clearly states, Additional models and it doesn't state they are required in the paragraph I quoted from SR2012.

SR2012 contains scenarios that use reinforcements. Reinforcements are additional models added to a player’s army list(s) only for scenarios that have the reinforcements artifice. These models and their points must be shown on a player’s army list(s) in case a reinforcements scenario is played. Detailed rules for reinforcements are found in the Artifices section (p. 9)

We are splitting hairs here, but this looks like its required. If you chose to never use them, that is your prerogative. It doesn't say "optional models added to the player(s) army list" and since they write their rules in a very clear "this is what you do" fashion, It seems pretty straight forward to me.

Lets not lose sight of the fact that A) His TO was a jerkface (allegedly), and 2) people should at least be familiar with the SR2012 rules before they jump into the fire.

[Rogue Sun]

Perhaps this is a dumb question, but aren't all SR2012 events at minimum a 2 list event?

Couldn't you have just used models from your second list?

Also, and I'm not trying to sound like a jerk or turn you off from tournaments, but if you didn't read the rules fully for SR2012 then that is kind of your own fault. SR2012 doesn't say reinforcements are required, however it does specify a number of scenarios that use the reinforcement artifice AND clearly explains what Reinforcements entail. Unless your TO explicitly stated what scenarios s/he would be using prior to the event (which seems unlikely given the circumstances) then it would be the player's responsibility to create lists with the reinforcement artifice in mind, regardless of whether or not a scenario with that artifice is used in the tournament.

Basically two things happened. 1) Your TO made a bad call by forcing you to withdraw. 2) You made a bad call by not fully reading the rules for the event you were attending.

Now you know and can fully prepare for the next tournament.

[PG_Duckboy]

We are splitting hairs here, but this looks like its required. If you chose to never use them, that is your prerogative. It doesn't say "optional models added to the player(s) army list" and since they write their rules in a very clear "this is what you do" fashion, It seems pretty straight forward to me.

Lets not lose sight of the fact that A) His TO was a jerkface (allegedly), and 2) people should at least be familiar with the SR2012 rules before they jump into the fire.

Yeah, Further clarification is needed I guess. Just the example they give (50pt kaylessa list, can't go below 2 points and can't go over), seems to explain it for me.

But yes, All players attending a Steamroller event should glance over the rules document and ask the TO questions about the tournament.

[PG_Duckboy]

Perhaps this is a dumb question, but aren't all SR2012 events at minimum a 2 list event?

Couldn't you have just used models from your second list?

Also, and I'm not trying to sound like a jerk or turn you off from tournaments, but if you didn't read the rules fully for SR2012 then that is kind of your own fault. SR2012 doesn't say reinforcements are required, however it does specify a number of scenarios that use the reinforcement artifice AND clearly explains what Reinforcements entail. Unless your TO explicitly stated what scenarios s/he would be using prior to the event (which seems unlikely given the circumstances) then it would be the player's responsibility to create lists with the reinforcement artifice in mind, regardless of whether or not a scenario with that artifice is used in the tournament.

Basically two things happened. 1) Your TO made a bad call by forcing you to withdraw. 2) You made a bad call by not fully reading the rules for the event you were attending.

Now you know and can fully prepare for the next tournament.

Standard Steamroller tournaments only require 1 list minimum.

[PG_ICleadpeople]

Dont get discouraged by this experience and keep coming out to the SR's in your area. When you head out to the next one, look for the requirements in the store or in the events forum. I would also get a copy of the SR packet to keep in your army bag.

You will see most good TO's post the format i.e.

-35pt. SR 2012
-2 LIST, 2nd OPTIONAL
-3 ROUNDS
-ARTIFICE, KILLBOX.........

If you dont see that call the store before the event and get the info.

[PG_Duckboy]

Example of how I advertise for tournaments.

[PG_Azhdeen]

As a TO, I always take my own models/gear to an event; for these very types of cases. One of my most recent events, I loaned out full unit of Bloodgorgers/eEiryss/pEiryss/Boomhowlers/Nyss Hunters (Reinforcements funnily enough) and 3 or 4 other Merc/Cryx cards. That doesn't include the pens, tape measures and others which I have multiples of in my bags.

If this is as the OP states, then it is making the game look bad; plus making the TO look ill-prepared to run an event in the first place. To the OP, sorry for the problems; but don't give up. Just take this as a lesson, that you shouldn't rely on others.

Edit: Artifices are *mandatory* (SR2012 1.3v pg10, para 1), as are Reinforcements (SR2012 1.3v Pg10, "These models models are separate from the main part of the army and *must* be included, with battlegroup/marshal affiliation if applicable, even though reinforcements scenarios might not be played."

[ragnarok14]

Not trying to have a go at the OP but he doesnt say the TO made him withdraw. Perhaps due to his inexperience he thought he had to withdraw when, like many in this thread have stated, he could have simply played the game 'forgetting' to bring on the re-enforcements or borrowing models.

To the OP, i hope you dont get discouraged, tournament play can be one of the most rewarding aspects of warmachine/hordes. Most events outside of masters events are approached in a relaxed manner by pretty much everyone involved.

[jandrese]

I'm disappointed that nobody else there had models the op could borrow, it is only 7 points worth. Not even some mercs or something.

[PG_Stevo]

Edit: Artifices are *mandatory* (SR2012 1.3v pg10, para 1), as are Reinforcements (SR2012 1.3v Pg10, "These models models are separate from the main part of the army and *must* be included, with battlegroup/marshal affiliation if applicable, even though reinforcements scenarios might not be played."

Not true, players are allowed to field *up to* the indicated amount of points on reinforcements. The second sentence after your quoted text from Page 10 , para 1 states "Players can field reinforcements without using all of the reinforcement points available" which means that they can field 0 points in reinforcements.

This means that they can assign 0 points to their Reinforcements and still meet the Reinforcement "requirement" and not field *any* Reinforcements.

Here's an example of how this would look when you turn your list in to the TO:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saeryn +5
Nephilim Soldier -5
Nephilim Soldier -5
Nephilim Protector -5
Nephilim Bolt Thrower (free from T4 Theme List)
Angelius -9
Seraph -8
Harrier -2

Nyss Sorceress on Helion -4
2 Spell Martyrs -2

Reinforcements:
0 Points
---------------------------------------------------------------

That's all there is to it.

[PG_Wankel]

Sofar in my country there were only 2 MK2 tournaments and both organized by me. When i post ont he forums I let everyone know before hand what they need to bring, even give the senarios so ppl make zones and bring objectives to the event. (got a few spare tho)

In the first tournament we had a dad and son, the dad had 15 points of khador, but his son didnt had any minis. Me and another cryx player threw a list togehter for him and let him play.

75% of our playerbase is newbies, so our tournaments are just 3-4 games in a row to learn how to play.

Overall what iw ant to say is that "tournaments" dont always mean serious buisniss, atleast in out meta.

Ofc events like big cons are another matter.

[PG_Azhdeen]

Not true, players are allowed to field *up to* the indicated amount of points on reinforcements. The second sentence after your quoted text from Page 10 , para 1 states "Players can field reinforcements without using all of the reinforcement points available" which means that they can field 0 points in reinforcements.

This means that they can assign 0 points to their Reinforcements and still meet the Reinforcement "requirement" and not field *any* Reinforcements.

That is one way around it, but that would assume this TO would allow them to re-write the army list. I just stated they must be on the Army List, not that the player *must* use them. So if we take that in reference to the OP, they failed to include any Reinforcements on the Army List; so shouldn't be allowed to play in the event.

[scout's honor]

That is one way around it, but that would assume this TO would allow them to re-write the army list.

As far as I can tell this was a simple show-up-and-let-the-TO-check-your-list affair. If the "rewrite" consists of adding "Reinforcements: none" or something similar at the bottom I can't see how that should in any way be a problem, unless people who made a mistake calculating their points aren't allowed to adjust and correct their lists either (which I've never known to happen). Mistakes with lists happen. That shouldn't be a reason to bar someone from entering an event especially if caught before the event even started.

That said "SR2012 is not for casual players or beginners" is a bit harsh IMO. Beginners should probably steer clear from events that use time limits, but as long as you know the rules on an acceptable level being a "casual" player shouldn't be an issue. I do feel there is an onus on the player's part to do a little bit of checking as well, rather than just showing up and assuming everything will be ok.

[PG_Stevo]

That is one way around it, but that would assume this TO would allow them to re-write the army list. I just stated they must be on the Army List, not that the player *must* use them. So if we take that in reference to the OP, they failed to include any Reinforcements on the Army List; so shouldn't be allowed to play in the event.

The SR2012 rules packet doesn't state *how* Reinforcements need to be listed on a sheet. You don't have to write down X points of reinforcements and not use them. You can simply say you are taking 0 points in Reinforcements altogether. According to the rules document no rules have been broken.

Having judged Masters Qualifier events I can say that even at that level of play list rewriting prior to the start of the first round is common. Any TO that only allows a player *one chance* to write out their list correctly or face disqualification represents a very serious problem for the game. I've never seen a TO behave that way, and I pray I never do.