Second plastic beast kits for Hordes?

[Indy]

Okay, so it's time for some rampant speculation. The release of both the first wave of plastic beast kits is almost finished, along with the second chassis plastic warjacks for Warmachine. So that got me thinking, what would the likelyhood be of PP doing a second 'chassis' or 'body' of heavies for the Hordes factions? After all, these seem to be a requirement to getting 'Special Issue' level character jacks/beasts. At least two of the three factions seem to be in a position where it would make sense, those being Legion with their flying heavies (Seraph and Angelius) and Circle with the Satyrs. What would Skorne and Trolls get? More Rhinodons? A whole kit of elemental Earthborn-like dires? Any other crazy ideas?

[Vicomte Athos]

I really hope they do another plastic chassis though for all the factions it won't be as easy as it is for Warmachine do to the fact that we are behind in releases. Circle and Legion are the only ones with a high enough heavy count for it to work. Though it would have been nice to have the War Hog/Road Hog on the same leg and body so they would plastic kit a third one on there. Also more on the wrastler chassis would be good though it would mean a re-sculpt for it (this is good, the luchadore 'come at me bro' pose is dumb.).

What I really want is a Satyr plastic though, for a few main reasons. It would mean a resculpt of the Shadowhorn, which is good just so that it gets rid of the 'squatting dog' pose it has. Also it increases the likely hood of a Character Satyr and I would go nuts for a character power attack beast in circle.

[ExiledinElysium]

I too would go nuts for a third Satyr and a plastic kit. I would consider it highly likely that we'll get a second 'chassis' plastic kit for each Hordes faction by next year's book. The Gargantuan book will hopefully have more than just a big beastie and a new 'lock each, but it will take at least two more books for Hordes to fill out the ranks enough to have three of another kind of heavy for each faction. It also might not be a good idea, since it might require them to design new critters just so they can make plastic kits. That doesn't sound like a good design philosophy to me.

[Jake the Dog]

The Seraph and Angelus are too different to share a body. One is very sleek, the other isn't.

[Blaque]

The Seraph and Angelus are too different to share a body. One is very sleek, the other isn't.

I don't see how that prevents them from doing a resculpt to make them more similar.

And stuff.

[masterofnone]

And most Legion players would love to see a resculpt of the seraph as is.

[PG_Shi_no_Kami]

Mercs still need their second plastic chassis - the Rhulic Jack would do very nice, wink wink nudge nudge.

[ShoX]

I so want a character satyr...

[Vicomte Athos]

The Seraph and Angelus are too different to share a body. One is very sleek, the other isn't.

The same was said about the Feral/Pureblood/Stalker and it turned out to be the best of the Hordes kits IMO.

[NavyGodzilla]

I'd love a plastic Rhinodon.

[Jake the Dog]

The same was said about the Feral/Pureblood/Stalker and it turned out to be the best of the Hordes kits IMO.

Where was this said? They're all werewolves, that wasn't going to be an issue, ever.

[PG_machine007]

Trolls light plastic kit i suppose would work with the winter, slag and maybe a pyre resculpt?

[Tiran]

Circle could also potentially get a Wold plastic kit, the Warden and Guardian could be re-sculpted to be pretty similar and as constructs they would deal much better with the limitations of plastic (more static poses etc.) that people often complain about in Hordes kits.

[alchahest]

I really hope they do another plastic chassis though for all the factions it won't be as easy as it is for Warmachine do to the fact that we are behind in releases. Circle and Legion are the only ones with a high enough heavy count for it to work. Though it would have been nice to have the War Hog/Road Hog on the same leg and body so they would plastic kit a third one on there. Also more on the wrastler chassis would be good though it would mean a re-sculpt for it (this is good, the luchadore 'come at me bro' pose is dumb.).

What I really want is a Satyr plastic though, for a few main reasons. It would mean a resculpt of the Shadowhorn, which is good just so that it gets rid of the 'squatting dog' pose it has. Also it increases the likely hood of a Character Satyr and I would go nuts for a character power attack beast in circle.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that plastic means resculpt. all the carni chassis have identical body/legs and switching to plastic just gave us the same one but it weighs less.

[PG_Askew37]

Trolls light plastic kit i suppose would work with the winter, slag and maybe a pyre resculpt?

Not sure that would work out too well. Their bodies have different substances jutting out of them and their attire on a mutually shared body would be really out of place. However, they could do a similar body on the Axer and Bouncer since they're both in heavy armor and a third non-elemental light could round it out. The Impaler is depicted with leather armors, so it wouldn't work well.

[alchahest]

I really hope they do another plastic chassis though for all the factions it won't be as easy as it is for Warmachine do to the fact that we are behind in releases. Circle and Legion are the only ones with a high enough heavy count for it to work. Though it would have been nice to have the War Hog/Road Hog on the same leg and body so they would plastic kit a third one on there. Also more on the wrastler chassis would be good though it would mean a re-sculpt for it (this is good, the luchadore 'come at me bro' pose is dumb.).

What I really want is a Satyr plastic though, for a few main reasons. It would mean a resculpt of the Shadowhorn, which is good just so that it gets rid of the 'squatting dog' pose it has. Also it increases the likely hood of a Character Satyr and I would go nuts for a character power attack beast in circle.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that plastic means resculpt. all the carni chassis have identical body/legs and switching to plastic just gave us the same one but it weighs less.

[Vicomte Athos]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that plastic means resculpt. all the carni chassis have identical body/legs and switching to plastic just gave us the same one but it weighs less.

The Ravagore and Scythean were designed to fit directly onto the Carnivean chasis. Aside from my own conversion the Satyrs do not work on the same chassis so you would either need to sculpt Gnarlhorn parts onto the shadowhorn body (not likely as the Shadowhorn is the fugly of the two) or do shadowhorn parts onto the Gnarlhorn body (which is what I did). The other alternative is to do a full re-sculpt of them.

[OldOneEye]

Just putting this out there-- I wouldn't mind if Legion got the warbeast equivalent of the Decimator if it meant a resculpt of the Seraph to make a plastic flying heavy kit.

I think you could get away with one body and one set of upper and middle wings each. Put in a head, legs and a punier tail spike for the Seraph and a head with a longer neck, the third set of wings and the scary AP tail for the Angelius. Toss in the bits for your new beast and you have a kit.

... now I'm tempted to convert an Angelius into a Seraph. :/

[Aníron]

Third Satyr? Yes!
Character Satyr? Yes!
Squeezing all the Satyrs into an omni-kit? Rather not...

They work great for warjacks, but the beasts all seem to lose a good portion of their character, e.g. Pureblood Warpwolf, Dire Trolls...

[Xnath]

And most Legion players would love to see a resculpt of the seraph as is.

As well as add a new flying heavy to fit the 3 models per plastic kit standard.

[ExiledinElysium]

I would be perfectly happy if the second heavy body had a common core but more variable peripherals. With Warmachine, the second heavy chassis for each faction easily permits a kit. The only different parts are the head and hands. They essentially did the same thing with the first heavy body set for each Hordes faction, and that's fine. Maybe with the second one, each of the three for the faction will have a common core body, but different heads, arms, tails, back bits, etc., such that they just release them as separate items rather than a kit with all three. I'd be okay with that.

What we really should be doing here is speculating wildly about what the other heavies for each faction will be.

What new elemental dire trolls do you want to see? How 'bout one whose mountain home happens to be a volcano? Maybe a giant glacier? Sure they already have pyre trolls and frost trolls, but they could make fire and ice dire trolls that would be distinct in the rules. Plus, they would be conducive to a common sculpt because all the rock parts on the Earthborn could just be painted like obsidian for the fire dire and frozen for the ice dire.

What should the new satyr offer? Maybe a satyr that uses a weapon, or has some kind of bleating spray attack.

How could a third winged dragon differ sufficiently from the strafing Seraph and the assassin Angelius?

What bipedal dinosaur would you like to see next? The Rhinodon covers the anklyosaurus, so how about a stegosaurus? What else?

[unyuzyall]

Just putting this out there-- I wouldn't mind if Legion got the warbeast equivalent of the Decimator :/

What, a warbeast that wasn't good at either ranged or melee, and sucked up too many warlock resources to run?

[PitLord]

I can't stress enough how bad an idea I think this is. Lets re sculpt X and Y so they look the same then add Z which also looks the same. This makes sense for manufactured Warjacks. For beasts I would much rather them explore their extensive bestiary that is the Monsernomicon more than make three versions of everything. What they did to the Dire trolls and the Warpwolves to get them into a plastic kit, retiring the old sculpts is a crime against people who actually love miniatures everywhere.

Plastic is easier to work with, cheaper, and lighter and probably the way of the future, but if it means that great sculpts like the original pureblood warpwolf are being discontinued then I hope they never make another plastic model again.

[ExiledinElysium]

Pitlord, I see your point, but we need to remember that PP is a game company that also makes miniatures, not the other way around. If conforming sculpts allows them to produce more at lower cost, and spend more of their money designing new units for the game, I'll be happy. I can get my pureblood warpwolf on eBay.

[Greggle]

I can't possibly see Trollbloods getting a second Dire Troll chassis, but a light warbeast plastic kit might be cool, based on the Storm Troll perhaps???

[PitLord]

I see your point too Exiled, but I just wish they would work on developing new things rather than designing inferior sculpts for things we have. It was always going to be dicey making plastic kits for hordes factions. Forcing things like the Seraph and Angelius or the two Sayters to look more alike diminishes the product and the setting. PP never took the easy way out until the Hordes heavy plastic kits. I don't think they built what they have now working this way.

The PP I know did books like Apotheosis (which was larger than normal to do the art justice) and pushed boundaries. Now we are retiring great looking sculpts to make things out of plastic. Even worse, charter pieces, which used to be show pieces for you army, are now being constrained by these kits. Proteus is just ravagor with a head swap. That hurts, when there is so much more you could do with beasts. Compare Drago to a Beserker for an idea of what is lost so that they can make things plastic.

As I said before jacks make sense. I can even see some other potential multi part kits. You could design the Man-o-wars and Exemplars so they could be built either way. However, taking beasts that were purposely designed not to look alike and making them head and arm swap clones because hordes needs to have two plastic kits like war machine is just stupid beyond belief.

I am even hesitant to by a colossal for fear that in a year or so they are just going to put it in a box with different weapon options.

[PG_Viper114]

I can't possibly see Trollbloods getting a second Dire Troll chassis

Yeah, I don't think so, either. The only thing NOT covered by the first kit was the EBDT, and I don't know if they would make him plastic (although it would be nice).

but a light warbeast plastic kit might be cool, based on the Storm Troll perhaps???

A light warbeast kit would make sense, but I believe it would follow what they released in the new warpack, which had plastic Axer and Impalers. That kit would probably cover Axer/Impaler/Bouncer. And as much as I'd love a plastic Storm Troll, they're already saying it's metal for its release in September. A second light kit for Pyre/Winter/Slag/Storm in plastic would be nice.

[PG_Viper114]

Double post.

[ExiledinElysium]

I think I understand and share many of your concerns. You feel like Privateer produced a better product before they got so popular, and now the fame might be going to their head, so to speak. I wasn't around in MkI, but I've looked through all the old books and I agree that books like Apotheosis and Legends were just amazing, and the new material they brought was revolutionary. With these plastics, I really think PP is just flexing their muscle to see what they can do with it. They did a modular kit for the 'jacks and it worked out so well, they wanted to try it with Hordes. In some ways it does and in other ways it's awful. I'm not worried, though, because I think they're just adapting to some changes in their business model. When they first started releasing the character upgrade kits last year, many people were furious, but it wasn't those kits themselves that people were mad at. They, or rather we, were worried that PP wouldn't be doing any unique character sculpts anymore. One of the devs (I think it was Simon) chimed in on the thread and assured us that this wasn't going to become the norm--that character upgrade kits are just one thing they're trying out for some of their character 'jacks. The reason I think a second modular plastic kit is likely is only because it's what they've done with WM, and they seem to like symmetry. I definitely don't think they're going to continue to try to condense everything into sets and design with that in mind. It just seems like there's plenty of room for these categories of beasts. Satyrs are all satyrs, so making a modular kit would be easy. Also, if they're going to do a third satyr, why not also sculpt options for the other two and make it a kit? The same goes with the winged dragons, especially when the Seraph so desperately needs a new sculpt anyway. They haven't discontinued the old sculpts, they just aren't shipping them en masse to retailers because it's not efficient.

The only thing that would shoot down my whole idea is if they're strictly designing out of this Monsternomicon I keep hearing about. Was that from the original IK RPG?

[OldOneEye]

What, a warbeast that wasn't good at either ranged or melee, and sucked up too many warlock resources to run?

If it gets me a Seraph model that isn't weirdly squat and ugly, then yes. I'm willing to take that one for the team.

[Lich_Lord_X]

The Nephilim were pretty much made for plastic kits.

[PG_LunarSol]

I can't possibly see Trollbloods getting a second Dire Troll chassis, but a light warbeast plastic kit might be cool, based on the Storm Troll perhaps???

The Storm Troll looks pretty well set up to be the basis of plastic elemental trolls. Right above its gut is a chain that I assume separates its upper and lower halves that wraps farther to make a connection for its head. It would be pretty easy to design new torsos for the Pyre, Winter, Swamp, and Slag from above that point.

[FranzGrenstein]

I heard a rumor some where they were going to to the bronze back, and the EBDT in resin with metal bitz, ala colossals.

That said if they did a second plastic troll kit, it would most likely be like the Ret Vyre jack kit.

[DrakkenBlut]

I do hope PP produces lights in plastic with a multi kit, I do want a lot of different Nephilim.

We should get an indication if this comes to pass in the next book, if it introduces a heavy that looks a whole lot like an existing one, then it would be reasonable to assume that in the next book we could get a plastic kit that makes three heavies of a new type. So far, only the pigs and circle have two similar heavies, so a second kit is a good two years away in a best case scenario. And not all of the WM plastic heavies are done with, right?

[WarpedWolf]

For Circle, I think a third satyr and a kit would be more likely than doing a kit for the constructs. The biggest difference between the Gnarlhorn and the Shadowhorn is their heads. (Okay, there are some others, but that's the biggest point.) The two heavy constructs that exist are waay too different to try to combine them in a kit.

[ExiledinElysium]

I do hope PP produces lights in plastic with a multi kit, I do want a lot of different Nephilim.

We should get an indication if this comes to pass in the next book, if it introduces a heavy that looks a whole lot like an existing one, then it would be reasonable to assume that in the next book we could get a plastic kit that makes three heavies of a new type. So far, only the pigs and circle have two similar heavies, so a second kit is a good two years away in a best case scenario. And not all of the WM plastic heavies are done with, right?

Don't forget about Legion. The Seraph and Angelius models look radically different, but the creatures themselves are very similar.

[George Spiggott]

Tangentially I'd like to see if Rhul or Privateers get a plastic warjack first.

[DrakkenBlut]

Don't forget about Legion. The Seraph and Angelius models look radically different, but the creatures themselves are very similar.

I was about to say that they aren't, that the Seraph is much shorter in lenght, and thicker, but maybe with a resize, the Angelious would be done with a much longer tail and neck bits, and of course wings where the Seraph has legs. The way I imagined it, both would look awesome.

So, pigs, Circle, Legion... is that enough for the boxes to start producin'?

[EdgeKun]

For Legion I could definitely see a Nephalim kit being produced. Bolt Thrower/Soldier/Protector are easily using enough common parts to warrant one. I could also see a Seraph / Angelius kit if we got a Seraph resculpt, though I'm wondering if 2x models are enough to warrant their own kit. (As opposed to the 3x of heavy noun kits)

For Circle, I'd definitely expect a Golem/construct kit. Seems like a lot of common pieces there, and Megalith could easily be a character upgrade blister. (Because honestly, I'd happily use Megalith if he had a different sculpt than "TOUCHDOWN!" >< ) If 2x beasts in common "chasis" wise are enough to warrant a common kit (as discussed above with Angelius/Seraph), then I could totally see a Satyr kit as well.

[PitLord]

I think I understand and share many of your concerns. You feel like Privateer produced a better product before they got so popular, and now the fame might be going to their head, so to speak. I wasn't around in MkI, but I've looked through all the old books and I agree that books like Apotheosis and Legends were just amazing, and the new material they brought was revolutionary. With these plastics, I really think PP is just flexing their muscle to see what they can do with it. They did a modular kit for the 'jacks and it worked out so well, they wanted to try it with Hordes. In some ways it does and in other ways it's awful. I'm not worried, though, because I think they're just adapting to some changes in their business model. When they first started releasing the character upgrade kits last year, many people were furious, but it wasn't those kits themselves that people were mad at. They, or rather we, were worried that PP wouldn't be doing any unique character sculpts anymore. One of the devs (I think it was Simon) chimed in on the thread and assured us that this wasn't going to become the norm--that character upgrade kits are just one thing they're trying out for some of their character 'jacks. The reason I think a second modular plastic kit is likely is only because it's what they've done with WM, and they seem to like symmetry. I definitely don't think they're going to continue to try to condense everything into sets and design with that in mind. It just seems like there's plenty of room for these categories of beasts. Satyrs are all satyrs, so making a modular kit would be easy. Also, if they're going to do a third satyr, why not also sculpt options for the other two and make it a kit? The same goes with the winged dragons, especially when the Seraph so desperately needs a new sculpt anyway. They haven't discontinued the old sculpts, they just aren't shipping them en masse to retailers because it's not efficient.

The only thing that would shoot down my whole idea is if they're strictly designing out of this Monsternomicon I keep hearing about. Was that from the original IK RPG?

Its not the size or popularity of PP that concern me. What concerns me is this. PP used to not make compromises that negatively affect the artistry of their models or the depth of their setting and I see that more and more lately.

In the fluff the two Satyers are described very differently, one is heavier and slam things, the other has a lighter build and bounces around. The rules even reflect this. They do not share the same body type. Before plastic there would be no discussion about changing them to be similar. They were different beasts and should look different. Now people in this thread are clamoring to have PP not only make those two sculpts more alike, but to limit their selection of the next circle war beast to another breed of Satyer.

A lot of fluff used to be largely built into the rules. Mk II mostly did aware with it. This had to happen to streamline a larger game, but many questions can be answered by looking back. For example why can epic Severius be targeted by spells when his original version could not. Well that ability actually used to be listed as an ability of his staff, and when he became primarch he switched staves.

The Seraph may need a re-sculpt, but the setting and the model line would be poorer if it were made simlar to the Angelius just for the sake of making a multi model kit. The same for the Satyers. Why anyone would like to take an entire selection of Trolls, and limit them to the same pose is beyond me. The legion heavy warbeasts all having the same legs, and in a pose that they can't ever actually spend that much time in, is bad enough.

If they want to do plastics they should do them right, and include one good looking model per kit, with each member of a similar type in different posses (like the metal models) If you think this is about PP's monetary survival I don't understand how they are making more now when everyone I know buys fewer kits and magnetizes them.

FYI the Monsternomicon was the monster manual for the original RPG. It won several awards and is widely regarded as one of the best "collection of role-playing monsters" books ever. Many, but not all of the things that have made it into Hordes (and Warmachine) where featured in it or the Monsternomicon II first. These include the death jack, Cephalex, warp wolves, and wold wrath and many others. There are also quite a few monsters in there that would be way more interesting than another satyer or titan. If you ever have a chance to buy or flip through that book I seriously cannot recommend it enough. Its worth if for the dragon entries alone.