Ravyn vs Stormwall

[Murkhadh]

I just thought I'd confirm what most of us kind of guessed already.

I faced eHaley and a stormwall in a steamroller this weekend. I had no problem taking the stormwall down with Ravyn in one turn. 2 mhas, the mhsf and 2x stormfalls was the end of the stormwall. I was able to have the Nyss cra down some gun mages on the same turn even so I had more shots if I needed them.

[Barakiel]

That's nice you were able to do it with Ravyn. It's easy with Ossyan's feat, but I find I usually need a loaded Myrmidon to seal the deal if I can't count on that extra damage dice at range.

[Murkhadh]

That's nice you were able to do it with Ravyn. It's easy with Ossyan's feat, but I find I usually need a loaded Myrmidon to seal the deal if I can't count on that extra damage dice at range.

Yea it would have been easy with Ossyan, but I havn't been playing him so much lately. I wanted to see what I could do vs a stormwall with one of my regular lists.

I could probably take down 2 stormwalls with Ossyan in a turn.

[Barakiel]

Yea it would have been easy with Ossyan, but I havn't been playing him so much lately. I wanted to see what I could do vs a stormwall with one of my regular lists.

I could probably take down 2 stormwalls with Ossyan in a turn.

If I'm calculating this right, the units you described do 60.5 damage boxes to an unbuffed Stormwall (assuming everything hits, which they should on average with Ravy on the table.)

16.5 damage from the 11 MHSF
28 from the 8 Stormfalls
4 from each Assassin, turning into 8 after Decapitation, meaning 16 damage from the two models in total.

The tricky thing I see is actually being able to bring all that damage to bear in one turn. Can you describe the circumstances of the game a bit? I would think that a Cygnar opponent would want to do his best to keep the Stormwall safe until he's had the opportunity to thin your infantry, and I would think that getting two assassins engaged with the Stormall would be difficult as well when you consider the covering fire templates and lightning pods. It's gratifying to know though that Ossyan isn't the only caster than can take down a Stormwall without having to plow a bunch of Myrmidons into combat with it.

[Lanz]

I actually saw a Ravyn list take it down in melee just last week. Ravyn charged in with Vortex of Destruction, I looked away, and there was a wreck marker when I looked back.

[Barakiel]

I actually saw a Ravyn list take it down in melee just last week. Ravyn charged in with Vortex of Destruction, I looked away, and there was a wreck marker when I looked back.

This is certainly doable. I've taken down a Conquest in this manner using Ravyn, but it certainly wasn't an ideal choice. The only reason Ravyn survived the approach to begin with was that I parked her in Veil of Mists the turn before and the Conquest rolled low to blast her. Still, Ravyn with VoD and a fully loaded Discordia are not much fun for any Colossal. This thread got me thinking about the numbers involved for downing a Stormwall, and I think I'll probably retain Ravyn as my go-to caster for most Cygnar matchups.

[Lanz]

Well, I don't think she did it single-handedly, but I know Vortex of Destruction played a role in cracking it open.

[Murkhadh]

Well, I don't think she did it single-handedly, but I know Vortex of Destruction played a role in cracking it open.

Vortex means every attack that followed was boosted damage, it would make taking it down quite easy.

[Murkhadh]

If I'm calculating this right, the units you described do 60.5 damage boxes to an unbuffed Stormwall (assuming everything hits, which they should on average with Ravy on the table.)

16.5 damage from the 11 MHSF
28 from the 8 Stormfalls
4 from each Assassin, turning into 8 after Decapitation, meaning 16 damage from the two models in total.

The tricky thing I see is actually being able to bring all that damage to bear in one turn. Can you describe the circumstances of the game a bit? I would think that a Cygnar opponent would want to do his best to keep the Stormwall safe until he's had the opportunity to thin your infantry, and I would think that getting two assassins engaged with the Stormall would be difficult as well when you consider the covering fire templates and lightning pods. It's gratifying to know though that Ossyan isn't the only caster than can take down a Stormwall without having to plow a bunch of Myrmidons into combat with it.

Its not exactly easy to hide a colossal.

MHA's attack from 4 inches away, he had the templates right at the foot of the stormwall so 4 inch reach reached right across them. the mhsf threat from 18 inches away without snipe, the highest he can threat with one of the pods 17

It really wasn't that hard. I had snipe on the stormfalls that were further away so when they shot they could still brutal damage from 21 inches from where they started from, the other set was able to move 5 and shoot 12

It really wasn't that hard.

[DesertSpiral]

I just want to say quickly that grays on the achievement. I do think though that your opponent was playing sub par.

Firstly unbuffed mhsf don't have an 18" threat range they have a 12" threat range with an 18" engagement range. As do the sfa if they are using brutal.

If your opponent was playing to storm walls strengths he would have dropped the covering fires in an arc at max range which would have severely limited the 21 models required to drop him.

Good job on doing it, I just don't feel it's wise for the community to bench mark that as cannon - especially since deceleration could eeasily have swung it and proper covering fire would seriously impact it.

[Barakiel]

I just want to say quickly that grays on the achievement. I do think though that your opponent was playing sub par.

Firstly unbuffed mhsf don't have an 18" threat range they have a 12" threat range with an 18" engagement range. As do the sfa if they are using brutal.

If your opponent was playing to storm walls strengths he would have dropped the covering fires in an arc at max range which would have severely limited the 21 models required to drop him.

Good job on doing it, I just don't feel it's wise for the community to bench mark that as cannon - especially since deceleration could eeasily have swung it and proper covering fire would seriously impact it.

Exactly, this is what I'm talking about. Very well summarized by DesertSpiral. Proper placing of the templates at maximum range can block off shooting units with a 12 inch range, as well as blocking charge lanes from a distance. If you were clearly posing a shooting threat, and your opponent placed the templates in base contact with the Stormwall, then clearly he didn't recognize the threat that your Ret army presented. As for hiding the Stormwall, my point was that your opponent should have done something to protect his investment, rather than letting ~20 shooting infantry casually walk within range and focus all of their missile fire on killing it.

To maximize the effectiveness of a colossal, players need to use the abundance of anti-infantry weaponry aboard each colossal to neutralize incoming threats and preserve the functional systems of the Colossal. If you're able to pull off a full alpha strike with all of your shooting units and combat solos at full strength, and the Stormwall had absolutely no support or buffs to benefit it, then I think your opponent played a poor game.

[rwould]

You also start struggling if the Colossal has a defensive buff on it. Even with Brutal Damage the Stormfalls struggle against an Arcane Shielded Stormwall and this sees a big drop in your damage output.

[Mastershake]

Exactly, this is what I'm talking about. Very well summarized by DesertSpiral. Proper placing of the templates at maximum range can block off shooting units with a 12 inch range, as well as blocking charge lanes from a distance. If you were clearly posing a shooting threat, and your opponent placed the templates in base contact with the Stormwall, then clearly he didn't recognize the threat that your Ret army presented. As for hiding the Stormwall, my point was that your opponent should have done something to protect his investment, rather than letting ~20 shooting infantry casually walk within range and focus all of their missile fire on killing it.

To maximize the effectiveness of a colossal, players need to use the abundance of anti-infantry weaponry aboard each colossal to neutralize incoming threats and preserve the functional systems of the Colossal. If you're able to pull off a full alpha strike with all of your shooting units and combat solos at full strength, and the Stormwall had absolutely no support or buffs to benefit it, then I think your opponent played a poor game.

Your acting like an army with an average RNG of 12-16" wouldn't be able to alpha strike and choose it's target, I've played the list enough to know that simply isn't true and the only buff eEiryss can't shoot off in Cygnar for this thing is Deceleration and even then you have a pretty good chance of crippling it.

I just want to say quickly that grays on the achievement. I do think though that your opponent was playing sub par.

Firstly unbuffed mhsf don't have an 18" threat range they have a 12" threat range with an 18" engagement range. As do the sfa if they are using brutal.

If your opponent was playing to storm walls strengths he would have dropped the covering fires in an arc at max range which would have severely limited the 21 models required to drop him.

Good job on doing it, I just don't feel it's wise for the community to bench mark that as cannon - especially since deceleration could eeasily have swung it and proper covering fire would seriously impact it.

RNG 10 covering fires stop a unit from shooting when they have RNG 12? news to me. Even if he places at max RNG all it does is tell you where you need to stand to shoot it and the Sniped Stormfalls shooting brutals adamantly would not have given a ****.

[Murkhadh]

I just want to say quickly that grays on the achievement. I do think though that your opponent was playing sub par.

Firstly unbuffed mhsf don't have an 18" threat range they have a 12" threat range with an 18" engagement range. As do the sfa if they are using brutal.

If your opponent was playing to storm walls strengths he would have dropped the covering fires in an arc at max range which would have severely limited the 21 models required to drop him.

Good job on doing it, I just don't feel it's wise for the community to bench mark that as cannon - especially since deceleration could eeasily have swung it and proper covering fire would seriously impact it.

Am I even playing the same game as you?

The term threat range means the total distance away you can attack something, so your movement plus your weapons range, so yes they have an 18 inch threat range. Engagement refers to melee in this game as per the rulebook, so mis-using the term causes confusion.

The mhsf's THREAT RANGE is 18 and the stormfalls brutal damage THREAT RANGE is 17

The covering fire templates being at max range would have done nothing. News Flash, they are range 10, the lowest range in my list is range 12.

I think your advice is sub par and its not wise for the community to benchmark anything based on it.

And deceleration was up. Half of the damage dealers I listed ignore it.

[DesertSpiral]

Two things - I don't have access to colossals yet so forgive my misinterpretation of SW covering fire being ten rather than the manticores 12.

My mistake.

As to threat range of 18/17 for the purpose of shooting their range is 12. No amount of screeching will change that. So saying they have a total threat of 18 is irrelevant because they need to be within 12 to shoot it.

19 models you cited, that's 19 30mm base that need to be within 12 inches. If none of those fall closer than ten inches I'd be surprised.

My point stands - whether your list can kill SW or not the. Ygnar player needs to be asleep at the wheel to let that scenario happen...

Lastly learn to take critisism with some dignity and present rebuttals with a bit mor class. If you go off the chain at this - thankyou for proving my point in advance.

Telling people not to underestimate storm wall because your opponent served it up on a platter is not sub par advice. Obviously not everyone is as 'godly' as you are...

[DesertSpiral]

Sfa don't ignore deceleration by the by, which is about 40% of the aattackers you listed.

Just to clarify.

[Kallas]

Nicely done Murk, and you're definitely right about the threat ranges.

As far as Ret are concerned, Ravyn is certainly going to out-threat a Colossal.

[Murkhadh]

Two things - I don't have access to colossals yet so forgive my misinterpretation of SW covering fire being ten rather than the manticores 12.

My mistake.

As to threat range of 18/17 for the purpose of shooting their range is 12. No amount of screeching will change that. So saying they have a total threat of 18 is irrelevant because they need to be within 12 to shoot it.

Total threat is an accepted term in this game, It is relevant to the point.

The stormwall can kill the mhsf from a max distance away of 17 inches, that means if the mhsf hang out 18 inches away, next turn they can get into range and hit the stormwall. Thats called an alpha strike, another common and accepted term.

Your probably the only person I have ever heard on these forums argue this, why out of no where you aren't familiar with that term is beyond me. The rest of those who replied to this threat understood it just fine.

Lastly learn to take critisism with some dignity and present rebuttals with a bit mor class. If you go off the chain at this - thankyou for proving my point in advance.

Also you could learn to take your own advice.

when you make comments like:

I just want to say quickly that grays on the achievement. I do think though that your opponent was playing sub par.

Your pretty much saying "well that wasn't because you did anything right, it was your opponent doing something wrong"

THAT is not a "classy" reply to use your own term, if you want "classy" replies make "classy" comments. Or better yet, don't comment at all.

[Murkhadh]

Sfa don't ignore deceleration by the by, which is about 40% of the aattackers you listed.

Just to clarify.

I did say:

Half of the damage dealers I listed ignore it.

60% is close to half, it was an estimation so I don't see the point of this comment other than you seem to be trolling.

[Murkhadh]

You also start struggling if the Colossal has a defensive buff on it. Even with Brutal Damage the Stormfalls struggle against an Arcane Shielded Stormwall and this sees a big drop in your damage output.

Eiryss is always in this list, it won't have a defensive buff on it other than deceleration unless she rolls snakes.

[Tol]

As to threat range of 18/17 for the purpose of shooting their range is 12. No amount of screeching will change that. So saying they have a total threat of 18 is irrelevant because they need to be within 12 to shoot it.

DesertSpiral - Threat Range, as a term, is a meta phrase used to describe the distance in inches away that a model can THREATEN another model.

The Mage Hunter Assassin, for example, can move 7", charge 10" and has a 4" Melee Range. So unbuffed, the "Threat Range" of a MHA is 14" (because she can THREATEN models up to 14" away on her activation).

If you were to use Ossyan's Quicken, it would add +2" to her threat range. Her threat range is then 16" (still with me?).

A models movement IS factored in when determining a models threat range, per the meta term "Threat Range".

The only instance where a models movement is not included, is when for some reason the model cannot move, as unless Privateer has changed the rules on us and nobody told me, you can still move your Mage Hunter Strike Force their 6" SPD movement prior to shooting their 12" range (provided they weren't given Snipe).

As Murk said - and the man knows his stuff - the Stormwall's threat range of 17" allows for his 18" away MHSF to move in and gain that alpha strike on his opponent.


The Stormwall's owner would certainly not be the first Warmachine player to move a valuable piece or two too far in their first activation allowing an excited Retribution player to slide forward and claim that alpha strike. It's one of our leading sources of victory as a ranged heavy army and something I do all the time.

Remember - the Stormwall MUST PRE-DEPLOY - so even if Murk had gone first, he'd be able to deploy his units around destroying the thing as quickly and with as few casualties as possible.

Savvy?

[rwould]

Eiryss is always in this list, it won't have a defensive buff on it other than deceleration unless she rolls snakes.

Or if your opponent has managed to kill her, something Cygnar is not bad at.

[Murkhadh]

Or if your opponent has managed to kill her, something Cygnar is not bad at.

Its really not hard to keep Eiryss alive long enough to get a shot off gun mages are their best answer to her and she "can" out threat them.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

Or if your opponent has managed to kill her, something Cygnar is not bad at.

If you know for a fact that you need Eiryss for spell removal (i.e. a giant 18point model is sitting there begging for upkeeps) she is quite easy to keep safe if you don't place her all the way out front and run toward the enemy. Even Cygnar has a hard time killing her if she lurks around and waits to strike.

[Murkhadh]

DesertSpiral - Threat Range, as a term, is a meta phrase used to describe the distance in inches away that a model can THREATEN another model.

The Mage Hunter Assassin, for example, can move 7", charge 10" and has a 4" Melee Range. So unbuffed, the "Threat Range" of a MHA is 14" (because she can THREATEN models up to 14" away on her activation).

If you were to use Ossyan's Quicken, it would add +2" to her threat range. Her threat range is then 16" (still with me?).

A models movement IS factored in when determining a models threat range, per the meta term "Threat Range".

The only instance where a models movement is not included, is when for some reason the model cannot move, as unless Privateer has changed the rules on us and nobody told me, you can still move your Mage Hunter Strike Force their 6" SPD movement prior to shooting their 12" range (provided they weren't given Snipe).

As Murk said - and the man knows his stuff - the Stormwall's threat range of 17" allows for his 18" away MHSF to move in and gain that alpha strike on his opponent.


The Stormwall's owner would certainly not be the first Warmachine player to move a valuable piece or two too far in their first activation allowing an excited Retribution player to slide forward and claim that alpha strike. It's one of our leading sources of victory as a ranged heavy army and something I do all the time.

Remember - the Stormwall MUST PRE-DEPLOY - so even if Murk had gone first, he'd be able to deploy his units around destroying the thing as quickly and with as few casualties as possible.

Savvy?

Thank you Tol, as usual others more eloquently say what I mean.

Also of note, often times the scenario forces people to advance things further forward then they would often desire.

[joelker41]

Threat range is more than base stats here guys. Forward deviations, snipe, scenarios forcing to people into the middle etc can all radically shift threat ranges.

A stormwall under pCaine if Caine has a hill to camp on can be rough. My least happy matchup would be pMagnus with Galleon. Essentially d6 range 18 POW 7 blast damage vs our squishy stuff can suck. You probably wont be able to protect all the MHSF with Discordia, and if you do a well placed Renegade obliterator to knock them all down.

And Magnus is ARM 17. Uninjured statistically snipe-feat-go just wont kill him.


I.managed to beat it in playtesting using bakaryu's version of pVyros themed with Daemons.

[Tol]

Also of note, often times the scenario forces people to advance things further forward then they would often desire.

I'll go with Page 5 on this one. You paid 18 points for this big *** thing, you probably didn't expect it to die in one turn, but you also know that unless you get it into the battle, it's not going to earn it's points. So they moved it forward and you shot it all the way to the 40k discount bin.

I get like - protect your stuff - but if it takes you three turns to really start the game because you're protecting your investments, your opponent (re: us) has likely set himself up for a very clean victory.

This is where I see people generally avoiding Colossal's in some situations, it's a huge investment, and things like Void Lock make it an extremely frustrating investment to have disrupted in any way. I'm still going to buy the hell out of a Hyperion, but I think they're just another Warjack, not some huge OMG Game Changer like people might want them to be.

I see a lot of Hypnos' getting love this summer.

[DesertSpiral]

Firstly I can talk before thinking just like anyone else so granted yes I pprobably should take mmy own advice.

That being said:

@Tal, I understand what a threat range is. I have been playing this game since day one, and I'm quite good at it.

I ran the math on this earlier and the expected damage I got is about ~44 for the models cited (~1.5 for each of the mhsf and sfa[including deceleration] for 19 lots of 1.5 [~30] plus the fourteen from the mha's) now you said snipe wasn't involved, which is where the issue of threat comes in.

Can we all agree that they are range 12? I hope so because that should be obvious to all.

Because they are range troops engaging from range their move is irrelevant so long as its sufficient to put them in range.

Because (in the example) they are all range 12 they all (19 of them) need to be within 12 inches when they shoot. That means, either you are engaging over a rreasonably precise arc, or (more likely) you will have troops that have moved up to ensure all are in range.

This will probably put troops within 10 of storm wall. Proactive covering fire would potentially reduce the effective number of shots you have by limiting troop placement. At the very least it makes it uunlikely for Mha to get a charge vector, unless the angles are enough and there is enough open ground to ignore them.

What I'm trying to convey here is that effective covering fire matters even vs pure range threats, and damage spikes are great so long as everyone is aware that they are spikes.

Also, just quickly since we're on the topic of being nitty gritty over threat ranges. I believe storm walls threat is 21 (with the denfender cannons - unless it's bonded or TA'd), and gun mages out threat Eiryss unless she is buffed somehow (spd6 +range14 > spd7 + range12).

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

So they moved it forward and you shot it all the way to the 40k discount bin.

Congrats, sir, on winning the thread.

[rwould]

So you've got Eyriss within 19", one unit of Stormwalls within 17", one within 21",and the full MHSF within 18" all of the Colossal, and you must be feating as every attack is hitting. It's a good job your opponent has ran the Stormwall right into this perfect positioning for you so that you have the chance to kill it.

More realistically assuming a reasonable opponent is a turn 3 shot at this, but by then you are at risk of having some casualties yourself.

[Murkhadh]

So you've got Eyriss within 19", one unit of Stormwalls within 17", one within 21",and the full MHSF within 18" all of the Colossal, and you must be feating as every attack is hitting. It's a good job your opponent has ran the Stormwall right into this perfect positioning for you so that you have the chance to kill it.

More realistically assuming a reasonable opponent is a turn 3 shot at this, but by then you are at risk of having some casualties yourself.

This happens turn 2, I rarely ever feat later than turn 2 with ravyn, I don't' know why a few of you have so much of an issue picturing this.

The base of the thing is huge. You have tons of room to work with.

[Murkhadh]

Threat range is more than base stats here guys. Forward deviations, snipe, scenarios forcing to people into the middle etc can all radically shift threat ranges.

A stormwall under pCaine if Caine has a hill to camp on can be rough. My least happy matchup would be pMagnus with Galleon. Essentially d6 range 18 POW 7 blast damage vs our squishy stuff can suck. You probably wont be able to protect all the MHSF with Discordia, and if you do a well placed Renegade obliterator to knock them all down.

And Magnus is ARM 17. Uninjured statistically snipe-feat-go just wont kill him.


I.managed to beat it in playtesting using bakaryu's version of pVyros themed with Daemons.

My biggest fear is also the Galleon like you said, I think pVyross with 2 hyperions would be a good match though. But my poor wallet will say OUCH to that one.

[Murkhadh]

Now you said snipe wasn't involved,

?

I had snipe on the stormfalls that were further away

All stormfall shots were fired with brutal damage.

You should probably read the posts before replying, there will be less confusion.

[Murkhadh]

I'll go with Page 5 on this one. You paid 18 points for this big *** thing, you probably didn't expect it to die in one turn, but you also know that unless you get it into the battle, it's not going to earn it's points. So they moved it forward and you shot it all the way to the 40k discount bin.

I get like - protect your stuff - but if it takes you three turns to really start the game because you're protecting your investments, your opponent (re: us) has likely set himself up for a very clean victory.

This is where I see people generally avoiding Colossal's in some situations, it's a huge investment, and things like Void Lock make it an extremely frustrating investment to have disrupted in any way. I'm still going to buy the hell out of a Hyperion, but I think they're just another Warjack, not some huge OMG Game Changer like people might want them to be.

I see a lot of Hypnos' getting love this summer.

I agree whole heartedly about Hypnos.

[Tol]

@Tal, I understand what a threat range is. I have been playing this game since day one, and I'm quite good at it.

If only there was some way to scroll up and see you stating incorrectly what threat range is. Oh wait!

...unbuffed mhsf don't have an 18" threat range they have a 12" threat range with an 18" engagement range. As do the sfa if they are using brutal.

There are forum signatures that involve how many Arcanist's have killed things, how many Warcasters have been wracked and how many 1's somebody has rolled at a given time. What Murk wrote his post about, was his experience against a Stormwall, and how he killed it.

One should take away from what he said that the NEW MODEL he hadn't played before, and obviously his opponent hadn't played WITH IT a lot either. I imagine a lot of Colossal's are going to die horribly in the first few games as people come to get comfortable with them.

Per what you're saying, we're supposed to what... remain fearful of the Stormwall?

What is it that you're even arguing at this point?

[FearLord]

This is where I see people generally avoiding Colossal's in some situations, it's a huge investment, and things like Void Lock make it an extremely frustrating investment to have disrupted in any way. I'm still going to buy the hell out of a Hyperion, but I think they're just another Warjack, not some huge OMG Game Changer like people might want them to be.

I think this is a Retribution specific thing though - Colossals, especially the Stormwall, are game changers, just not so much against us (because we've always had very powerful shooting, held back by lack of models that can shoot stealth) and probably Skorne 2nd (because of their extremely powerful beasts)...

Not every faction is equally screwed by these things, but they are certainly going to hurt some factions more than others...

[5-Cents]

I think Ossyan with Hypnos will be our best counter to Colossals/Gargantuans, then combine some heavy jacks with Stormfalls and pop his feat and say goodbye to any 18-20 pt eyesores that are taking up space on your battlefield.

[Tol]

I think Ossyan with Hypnos will be our best counter to Colossals/Gargantuans, then combine some heavy jacks with Stormfalls and pop his feat and say goodbye to any 18-20 pt eyesores that are taking up space on your battlefield.

Yea the extra damage dice from his feat plus the MHSF extra dice against Warjacks? Yes please!

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

Ossyan against colossals is overkill, imho. That said, I do concur with The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates and say that "there is no kill like overkill."

But I think any caster can handle the colossals just fine. The gargantuans are another matter, however. I think Void Lock will be worth its weight in gold against them since there are very few options left when forcing is off the table. I've tripped up armies by simply Void Locking Megalith and kiting away...I think it will be doubly effective against gargantuans.

[joelker41]

My only regret with running Ossyan at tier 1 is no MHSF. That frigging sucks!