Resin MSDS?

[CG]

Is there a MSDS (Materials Safety Data Sheet) available for the resin PP uses in their battle engines?

Thanks.

[MagnustheJust]

Not sure if one is available, but the compounds used are relatively safe once cured. Just don't try to eat the resin parts, or breathe any dust from any parts you have to shave or file and you should be fine. Also, thoroughly washing your hands after working with resin is highly recommended.

[Sheer_Falacy]

Not sure if one is available, but the compounds used are relatively safe once cured. Just don't try to eat the resin parts, or breathe any dust from any parts you have to shave or file and you should be fine. Also, thoroughly washing your hands after working with resin is highly recommended.

Nice definition of "relatively safe" there. I guess it's all in what you measure relative to.

Also, I believe they use the resin in more than just the battle engines. Don't the jack kits use the same thing?

[Jester262]

I do believe it's required by law for them to have that information

[Grifter13]

It should be readily available on their web site.

[MagnustheJust]

Nice definition of "relatively safe" there. I guess it's all in what you measure relative to.

Also, I believe they use the resin in more than just the battle engines. Don't the jack kits use the same thing?

The warjack kits are not resin, but a plastic polymer - different material.

I do believe it's required by law for them to have that information

For the employees who work with it, yes.

[PG_Tamwulf]

Any material used by a company in a product sold in the United States has a MSDS. That's Federal Law under the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. Contact Privateer Press Customer Service- they should be able to send you a copy at no cost to you.

I contacted Games Workshop US about the Finecast MSDS and they sent it to me within 24 hours (by law, they have five business days). I also got the one used by the UK. Interestingly enough, the formula's are different, and it actually changed about a month ago. Finecast, before they mix it, is some nasty, reactive stuff. Explosive if exposed to water or oxygen. All kinds of safety hazards associated with handling and using it. I can only hope PP doesn't use the same kind of stuff- or if they do, that they have good Health Insurance for the guys working in the casting department.

Be aware, unless you have a strong background in chemistry or industrial materials and how to read a government MSDS, document, you might get a bit lost. Luckily, it was required by the Air Force for me to learn all about MSDS's, including how to file, read, and understand one.

<--- At one time, USAF Hazardous Waste Manager

[ExiledinElysium]

If it helps, PP employees have responded directly to this concern in past forum threads. The "resin" their newer models are made of is not the resin you've been told is really dangerous to handle or inhale. Getting a hold of the MSDS certainly couldn't hurt, but it's more like a plastic and the dust isn't going to damage your skin, lungs, or eyes.

[PG_Chris Cuevas]

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but the MSDS search isn't likely going to help you in your quest. I'm someone who has to deal with a binder in his profession and I can testify that the MSDS for *water* looks scary enough. The reason I often see for wanting an MSDS is because something made you sick and you're looking for a potential cause. The second reason I see is when someone is looking to reverse engineer a particular blend, often looking for a telltale additive (Aha! Delimolene!).

So yeah, wash your hands.

[CG]

To clarify, I'm looking for the MSDS because I want a little clarification about the word "Toxic" that comes in the warning on the box and in the instructions here: http://privateerpress.com/hobby/hobb...assembly-guide

I don't know if they're talking Anthrax, or Asbestos or Cigarette smoke level of toxic so I want to make an informed decision.

I'll contact customer service.

Thanks everyone.

Edit: Yeah, I know; probably not Anthrax.

[Spyde]

Like others have said, they should be required to give you the information if you request it.


I know here we are required to send them with every shipment.

[HeadHunter]

I can testify that the MSDS for *water* looks scary enough.

Indeed - it can dissolve anything, can impair vision, it is a choking hazard, highly electrically conductive, can cause burns at some typical operating temperatures... I've seen it too.

So yeah, wash your hands.

This, following the previous comment, is an unintentional LOL.

[Dunvane]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with an individual wanting more information with regards for personal safety about a product they've purchased with a label containing the word "toxic." I don't care how ardently some of you feel the need to defend Privateer Press and/or state that you, personally, feel the product is "relatively safe" and a person shouldn't need an MSDS. Your opinion really doesn't matter in this issue. As a safety director for a company that deals with toxic and otherwise hazardous materials on a daily basis, I can assure you that if a purchaser of a Privateer Press product wants an MSDS for a substance/product they've purchased with a safety warning on it, it is well within their legal right to do so. There are plenty of legal mandates and reasons that they have that right, and there's no need to drag that into here, but be sure it's important for PP's sake that they make such a thing available to anyone who asks for it.

[HeadHunter]

I don't care how ardently some of you feel the need to defend Privateer Press and/or state that you, personally, feel the product is "relatively safe" and a person shouldn't need an MSDS.

Did some posts get deleted? Because I'm looking all the way back and I don't see a single post that says anything of the sort. Looks like everyone agrees that the MSDS is available for the asking. Are you sure you're in the right thread?

[Heavygear]

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but the MSDS search isn't likely going to help you in your quest. I'm someone who has to deal with a binder in his profession and I can testify that the MSDS for *water* looks scary enough. The reason I often see for wanting an MSDS is because something made you sick and you're looking for a potential cause. The second reason I see is when someone is looking to reverse engineer a particular blend, often looking for a telltale additive (Aha! Delimolene!).

So yeah, wash your hands.

Your way off base mate. As someone who works for a pharmacueticals manufacturer, I can tell you I want to see the MSDS BEFORE I am exposed to something. Not after. I regullary check MSDS info for any unknown chemical I will be working with including cleansers.

Plastic and resins can be nasty stuff. If you are going to be handling this stuff or sanding/filing it checking the MSDS sheet is a excellant idea. Especially considering younger people maybe around you when you do this. Your health isn't anything to mess around with.

[theironking]

You may wish to see one for the mould release, also. About a month ago there was a thread with a few people mentioning they may have had allergic reactions to it. Better safe than itchy

[Navarp]

MSDS are only required when the material is a Hazardous Material under RCRA.

The Resin isn't considered a Hazardous Material under RCRA, ergo it isn't required.

Same with the mold release.

[HeadHunter]

I'll point out that, as Tamwulf pointed out, seeing the MSDS is not going to be helpful if you don't know anything about the chemistry behind it. Yes, people may have an allergic reaction to some of the compoiunds, but chances are they aren't aware of the particular substance that causes the reaction, they may have never heard of the name, and would not recognize it as the trigger even if they did.

Now, if you know you're allergic to Illudium Pu-38, and you see it on an MSDS, that's helpful. But most hobbyists wouldn't recognize that it's the Illudium Pu-38 that's causing their skin rash.

[HeadHunter]

MSDS are only required when the material is a Hazardous Material under RCRA.

Sorry, but RCRA isn't the only relevant act. We're not talking about disposal of hazardous waste here, we're talking materials handling safety.
OSHA requires employers to keep MSDS on hand for a variety of substances that you'd consider everyday materials. As Chris Cuevas pointed out, there's one for WATER. In the hospital, we have them for oxygen (you know, the stuff you breathe?) and a variety of other materials that are used to treat patients (and often are applied directly onto or into their bodies).

[Navarp]

Finecast, before they mix it, is some nasty, reactive stuff. Explosive if exposed to water or oxygen. All kinds of safety hazards associated with handling and using it. I can only hope PP doesn't use the same kind of stuff- or if they do, that they have good Health Insurance for the guys working in the casting department.

This quote coming from a Hazardous Waste Manager makes me sad.

I'll point out that, as Tamwulf pointed out, seeing the MSDS is not going to be helpful if you don't know anything about the chemistry behind it. Yes, people may have an allergic reaction to some of the compoiunds, but chances are they aren't aware of the particular substance that causes the reaction, they may have never heard of the name, and would not recognize it as the trigger even if they did.

Now, if you know you're allergic to Illudium Pu-38, and you see it on an MSDS, that's helpful. But most hobbyists wouldn't recognize that it's the Illudium Pu-38 that's causing their skin rash.

Also the bigger issue here is that a list of chemicals in a hardened resin is more than likely going to confuse people. There is Bromine in Mountain Dew. Water is made up of a Flammable Gas and an Oxidizer. Common Table Salt is made of an explosive and water reactive metal and a poison gas.

CG You would be way ahead by just sending PP Customer Service an e-mail asking "Why do you have "Toxic" listed on the boxes for the battle engines?"

Though I will hazard a guess and that guess is "It is a "CYA" move in case someone eats some of the resin and then tries to sue us."

[Cannibalbob]

If it helps, PP employees have responded directly to this concern in past forum threads. The "resin" their newer models are made of is not the resin you've been told is really dangerous to handle or inhale. Getting a hold of the MSDS certainly couldn't hurt, but it's more like a plastic and the dust isn't going to damage your skin, lungs, or eyes.

All resin and most plastic dust is dangerous to inhale. It has little to do with the actual material making you sick or being a carcinogen (although that can sometimes be the case), but more with the fact that the dust particles are tiny and do a number on your lungs when you breath it in. In general you don't want to breath a big cloud of small particles into your lungs as that is a rather stupid thing to do.

Just wear a mask when you sand the resin or do any heavy cutting and you will be fine. People should be doing this regardless of the MSDS.

[Navarp]

Sorry, but RCRA isn't the only relevant act. We're not talking about disposal of hazardous waste here, we're talking materials handling safety.
OSHA requires employers to keep MSDS on hand for a variety of substances that you'd consider everyday materials. As Chris Cuevas pointed out, there's one for WATER. In the hospital, we have them for oxygen (you know, the stuff you breathe?) and a variety of other materials that are used to treat patients (and often are applied directly onto or into their bodies).

Yes, I was trying to simplify and may have oversimplified it.

Water MSDS aren't required by law, but Oxygen IS a Hazardous Material.

SARA and CERCLA both have provisions that relate to MSDS as well, but at the end of the day the material has to be a "Hazardous Material" for an MSDS to be required (or else restaurants would have to have a TON of MSDS for all of the ingredients they used (as an example.))

[CG]

CG You would be way ahead by just sending PP Customer Service an e-mail asking "Why do you have "Toxic" listed on the boxes for the battle engines?"

Though I will hazard a guess and that guess is "It is a "CYA" move in case someone eats some of the resin and then tries to sue us."

I included that in my customer service email as the reason I'm asking for the MSDS.

[Navarp]

They aren't required to have an MSDS though.

Employers shall maintain copies of any safety data sheets that are received with incoming shipments of the sealed containers of hazardous chemicals, shall obtain a safety data sheet as soon as possible for sealed containers of hazardous chemicals received without a safety data sheet if an employee requests the safety data sheet, and shall ensure that the safety data sheets are readily accessible during each work shift to employees when they are in their work area(s);

Emphasis mine.

[theironking]

The MSDS doesn't only show chemical breakdowns (which as people have said isn't useful to the common user), but it will also list toxicity vs exposure type. As well as precautionary and first aid measures. If they are listing the model as "toxic", then asking for this information is the simplest way for the OP to avoid any accidents.

[Navarp]

The MSDS doesn't only show chemical breakdowns (which as people have said isn't useful to the common user), but it will also list toxicity vs exposure type. As well as precautionary and first aid measures. If they are listing the model as "toxic", then asking for this information is the simplest way for the OP to avoid any accidents.

It will only show toxicity based on route of exposure if those tests have actually been done though.

What are the odds that PP hired a laboratory to grid up some of their resin and feed it to a bunch of cloned mice? Or that they ground up their resin even finer and allowed a bunch of cloned mice to breath it? I would guess rather low because those tests would be expensive and because under SARA, RCRA, CERCLA, DOT, nor DOL is hardened resin considered a hazardous material.

The word "toxic" in this context really has been diluted to have almost no meaning.

Acid based Drain Cleaners often have "Toxic" stamped on them for example, and it really isn't the toxicity of the chemical that is the problem in those cases.[/understatement]

"Toxic" is really just a legalese/liability reduction way of saying "Don't put into your mouth, and especially don't swallow."

[CG]

"Toxic" is really just a legalese/liability reduction way of saying "Don't put into your mouth, and especially don't swallow."

For resin, they specifically call out that it's toxic, that your should wear an N95 mask when sanding and preferrably use wet sanding. They don't use any guidelines like that for the other 2 materials (metal, plastic), so I'm looking for clarification as to why.

[Heavygear]

The MSDS doesn't only show chemical breakdowns (which as people have said isn't useful to the common user), but it will also list toxicity vs exposure type. As well as precautionary and first aid measures. If they are listing the model as "toxic", then asking for this information is the simplest way for the OP to avoid any accidents.

My company just finished looking at a software that specifically shows you this pertinent safety information when you call it up. Just type in the name of the chemical and it shows you safety precautions, risk of exposure, symptoms of exposure etc.

Sorry but telling someone not to bother looking at the MSDS because it won't give you any info and you won't understand it tis about the dumbest fracking thing I have ever heard.

[PG_Chris Cuevas]

Sorry but telling someone not to bother looking at the MSDS because it won't give you any info and you won't understand it tis about the dumbest fracking thing I have ever heard.

Don't turn on the TV then.... or god forbid you ever accidentally stumble across an AM station. I suspect that your list for "Dumbest Thing" will grow leaps and bounds.

I'm thirsty. Someone pass the Illudium Pu-38 :P

[Temoinlanuit]

I'm also used to having MSDS for the materials I work with and looked for this a while back for the PPS resins, but wasn't able to turn up anything. And yeah, similarly to this thread, lots of people mentioning that it wasn't needed. Still something I want, but doesn't seem available to turn up. Not sure why it has been so difficult to get. Let me know if anything pans out for you.

[Cannibalbob]

For resin, they specifically call out that it's toxic, that your should wear an N95 mask when sanding and preferrably use wet sanding. They don't use any guidelines like that for the other 2 materials (metal, plastic), so I'm looking for clarification as to why.

It is because resin dust is stupidly tiny. The particulates can be smaller than the cilia in your lungs can grab onto and effectively convey out of the body through mucus. The end result is that it can stay in your lungs and accumulate - which does not so friendly stuff with your lungs. You don't want a bunch of small particles of anything gathering in your lungs.

In the end just wear a respirator or good face-mask and clean your area of resin dust when you are finished modeling with it. You should not need the MSDS to know you don't want to breathe this stuff in.

Also, in case anyone was wondering, in general you should not eat your miniatures. They are expensive, are likely to ruin your teeth, and probably won't digest well - which means it could be pretty unpleasant as it goes through and comes out the other end. Plus they are not a very cost-effective snack.

[gr31]

Yes, I was trying to simplify and may have oversimplified it.

Water MSDS aren't required by law, but Oxygen IS a Hazardous Material.

SARA and CERCLA both have provisions that relate to MSDS as well, but at the end of the day the material has to be a "Hazardous Material" for an MSDS to be required (or else restaurants would have to have a TON of MSDS for all of the ingredients they used (as an example.))

When I worked in a doctor's office, we had to have the MSDS for Sterile Water for both irrigation and injection.

[gr31]

Double post.

[theironking]

What are the odds that PP hired a laboratory to grid up some of their resin and feed it to a bunch of cloned mice? Or that they ground up their resin even finer and allowed a bunch of cloned mice to breath it? I would guess rather low because those tests would be expensive and because under SARA, RCRA, CERCLA, DOT, nor DOL is hardened resin considered a hazardous material.

Of course PP doesn't have the money for this testing. Nor do they need to do the tests. An MSDS is created by the manufacturer of the hazardous material. In this case, PP is the end user, not the manufacturer. When PP purchases the specific resin, as an employer, the containers would require proper labeling and an MSDS available (if the local laws are the same. I actually don't know where the models are produced, or the laws of that area).

As for the cost; if the manufacturer is required to make an MSDS, then the costs are amortized in to the product pricing. If someone doesn't understand this, then they haven't taken a look inside the workings of a manufacturing business.

Lastly, the products you generally see on the shelf are not governed by the same laws as those used by an employer. The level of toxicity is rarely elaborated, because they don't have to. But I challenge you to walk in to a Walmart, pull a product off the shelf, find a manager, and ask them to see an MSDS. You may be surprised at what they can show you. I've done the same thing in a Canadian Tire (yes, I'm a Canuck) for auto body filler, and within a few minutes they handed me the info.

Do some research, just like the OP is trying to do

[HeadHunter]

Sorry but telling someone not to bother looking at the MSDS because it won't give you any info and you won't understand it tis about the dumbest fracking thing I have ever heard.

Why not just show the chemical composition of the molecule and let people figure it out from that? Oh, that's right - most people aren't chemists, and wouldn't understand what it means!
Assuming that the average gamer can understand most of what an MSDS says is "about the dumbest fracking thing" I've ever heard... at least today. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from checking, I'm just saying "don't be surprised if much of it doesn't make sense, and if the rest of it fails to address some of your concerns".

When I worked in a doctor's office, we had to have the MSDS for Sterile Water for both irrigation and injection.

That's what I tried to tell Navarp as well - just because something's not a "hazardous material" by the definition provided, doesn't mean it can't be harmful when used improperly. Water is essential for life, but it has the hazards I mentioned before. If the only requirement for an MSDS was that the substance be a "hazardous material", OSHA would not have to publish a 30-page document regarding MSDS regulations.

[CG]

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from checking

Sure you are:

"don't be surprised if much of it doesn't make sense, and if the rest of it fails to address some of your concerns".

[HeadHunter]

In what way is that discouragement? I'm stating the reality of the situation. Care to tell us how advocating false hope is going to improve the situation?
Honestly, if anything I've written is that unclear to you, the verbiage on an MSDS is going to be downright confounding. Good luck.

[rimrunner]

Now, if you know you're allergic to Illudium Pu-38, and you see it on an MSDS, that's helpful. But most hobbyists wouldn't recognize that it's the Illudium Pu-38 that's causing their skin rash.

most would blame it on Illudium Pu-36. which is earth shattering so don't eat it.

[Cannibalbob]

most would blame it on Illudium Pu-36. which is earth shattering so don't eat it.

I generally just blame everything on Unobtainium. That material causes nothing but trouble...

[CG]

In what way is that discouragement? I'm stating the reality of the situation. Care to tell us how advocating false hope is going to improve the situation?
Honestly, if anything I've written is that unclear to you, the verbiage on an MSDS is going to be downright confounding. Good luck.

No need to be insulting.

I hope that you can understand that your "reality" isn't universal.

In my particular case, I work at a manufacturing facility with many people who are experienced working with MSDS data. I will ask friends for clarification for anything that "confounds" me.

It's better to have the data than not; the glass is not always half empty.