Countering menoth jack heavy spam lists led by harbinger

[trueblue]

Hello there servants of everblight, I have a quick question for you!

How exactly would you guys handle a jack spam list led by harby? What sort of warlock would be best suited for dealing with all that armor?

Shooting with ravagores is completely shut down thanks to choir, and attritioning them down won't work due to how cheap crusaders are. Flanking and killing the support won't work due to martyrdom and whatever got sent to do the job gets shot by a vanquisher.
Meanwhile Harbinger is standing miles away from the action. During scenarios, the feat hurts badly! Speed means nothing if I can't hold down a point on the map.

Maybe I'm playing it wrong? I just can't see anyway around the jack wall without actually smashing through it, and that plays straight into menoth's strengths.

[trueblue]

I forgot to mention the list. What I usually see is some combination of multiple rusaders with a vanquisher or 2 supported by full choir and vassal.

Whatever defensive buffs i have get purified so im always stuck with armor 17 or 18 on my heavies. That really dmeans i lose beasts every time i get charged.

[rivenwyrm]

Bring a beast heavy pVayl list with some Scytheans/Typhon. The feat should do almost nothing to you, and a single scythean can wreck 2 crusaders. The trick is getting around Enliven. If necessary, just ignore the Enlivened jack, and charge something else. If possible get the jacks into pVayl's Incite range.

eThagrosh can also buff your damage output, and Scourge (knockdown) can prevent Enliven, assuming there's no Book involved.

Saeryn is also a good pick, since you can just get in their face and be nearly immune to the Crusaders

What kind of lists have you been bringing? It would be helpful to have more details about what kind of problems you've been having.

[MeniteTom]

You out-threat that list to a hilarious degree. Absylonia is a solid choice because of Blight Field.

[trueblue]

Proxying most of my stuff atm...trying out ethagrosh
scythean
typhon
shredder
shredder
forsaken
sheperd
All of this at 25 points.
My games usually boil down to using manifest destiny every turn with an cheap upkeep or animus active to make him use purification. I get the alpha strike, but that leaves them in position to get charged the next turn. when the dust settles im left with nothing lol. Poor thagrosh has no choice but to help out the other heavies or they overwhelmed lol.

[rivenwyrm]

At 25pts, you're at something of a disadvantage, honestly. Warmachine is definitely stronger below 35pts. If you're proxying, there's no harm in trying to persuade your friend to go to 35pts. Add another scythean + shredder or a carnivean (dropping the shepherd). Don't be afraid to run hot either, even with your fury management at work.

[trueblue]

At 25pts, you're at something of a disadvantage, honestly. Warmachine is definitely stronger below 35pts. If you're proxying, there's no harm in trying to persuade your friend to got to 35pts. Add another scythean + shredder or a carnivean (dropping the shepherd). Don't be afraid to run hot either, even with your fury management at work.

Alright i'll try that. Is there any reason why everyone recommends using loads of shredders with e Thags? Boosted power 10s don't seem very useful against jacks.

Also, whats the best way to optimize my fury usage? Should I fully boost all the attacks on my scythean or buy loads of attacks? Should I even bother casting anything other than Scourge and manifest destiny due to his purification?

[CaptBooyah]

Alright i'll try that. Is there any reason why everyone recommends using loads of shredders with e Thags? Boosted power 10s don't seem very useful against jacks.

Also, whats the best way to optimize my fury usage? Should I fully boost all the attacks on my scythean or buy loads of attacks? Should I even bother casting anything other than Scourge and manifest destiny due to his purification?

Shredder spam with eThags is usually for destroying infantry and going for assassination runs on feat turn (24" guided missiles pewpewpew). Downside to eThags shredder spam is that against harbinger, the feat is going to hurt them hard. It can kill fresh shredders on boxcars and it will take out aspects on average rolls. Shredders can crack armour but it takes a little luck and persistence in the rolling/attrition.

With Manifest Destiny, the dice are getting an average of +2 to hit/dmg. So your Shredders are attacking at closeenoughto POW 12. With rabid, a second attack and eThags feat turn you're looking at around 12-15 dmg average per shredder on an ARM 19 jack. Three shredders should wreck a crusader on feat turn and that's roughly an equal point trade. If anything, you've clogged up a jack and probably disabled it pretty hard.

In regards to fury optimisation, through averages it's best boosting damage when you're -4 because with 2D6 you're average is 3.5 dmg while boosting is 8 dmg which is a better average than two attacks (which the second also has potential to miss, admittedly not much on a menoth jack)

If you like math, here's a good page that explains some probabilities and averages... it explains when you should boost and has nice tables for manifest destiny averages.
http://www.steamforged.com/probabili...stats-by-tort/

Purification does have a cost so Harby casting it does mean less focus for her jacks and less focus for her to camp against assassination (assuming she comes out of the backfield at all, although getting a ravagore shot off on her and setting her on fire is pretty priceless even if she does purify it next turn)

If you want to keep your control points clean, I could suggest an Angelius for repulsion. It'll probably get its *** whooped following turn but you may have scored a CP with it as well as cost them a focus point to charge back into do so (lol SPD4, repulsed just under 5" away).

[rivenwyrm]

If you need a 7+ to hit, boost your hit roll. If you're are dice-4 on damage, boost your damage. Against most PoM jacks, you shouldn't be boosting hit or damage rolls, especially if you cast Manifest Destiny (which is roughly + 1.5 to your hit and damage rolls). Just buy lots of attacks.

Against Harby, on the turn when I charge her army I might cast one Spiny Growth from eThagrosh onto a Scythean, but I wouldn't bother with tenacity or anything more unless you end up wrecking the jacks too fast.

Shredders are with eThags to help clear infantry out. Annoying infantry blocking a charge lane for your Scythean to a 'jack? Apply shredder. Spamming them (i.e., using them in overwhelming numbers) is a gimmick and should be avoided unless you're just screwing around. The reason they get recommended is because the feat + manifest destiny (which applies during the attacks from the feat) gives you a massive multiplier for the amount of fury you've spent. But it's still more of a gimmick than anything else.

[PG_Nemlock]

You out-threat that list to a hilarious degree. Absylonia is a solid choice because of Blight Field.

Harby has purification. Considering Abby is mostly buffs, that's not a matchup I'd be looking forward to. Plus Harby hates Ravagores. Abby doesn't do much for Ravagores. If you can fit 2 Ravagores into a list, Harby has to stay waaaay back otherwise she'll pee her floaty pants.

*edit* Woops, 25 pts eh? Ok at least 1 Ravagore.

[PG_Deist]

If Harbinger is running Jack spam, she does not have to be anywhere near the front line. Saeryn can be solid as she can spend her feat turn jamming all the Menoth jacks, and the following turn, crush them. Vayl 2 could be solid as well, with access to refuge. Proxy a Naga? That will shut down the anti shooting too.

[hausdorff space]

How bad is the terrain?

How would pVayl and some Angels fair in this situation?

[trueblue]

Doesn't Vayl lose a couple of her spells when fighting against warmachine?
And Absylonia's bazillion upkeeps are gonna be purified on Menoth's turn.

Also, I'm noticing Harbinger is a dangerous match up for other factions as well and most suggestions boil down to either 'kill support lol' or 'out range and kill harby lol'. How do I manage that? Would really fast moving raptors do that?

Can a war beast even flank around that big *** jack wall and still stay in warlock control range to force lol?
Im just saying this cause I don't wanna be stuck using only 1-2 casters everytime I play against her.

[drachenfels]

honestly i didnt read through the entire thread, so it may have been already said, and if it has i apologize, but shoot Harbringer with a Ravager. just get a line on her (use a light beast to slam a line of sight to her if needed), and just light her on fire. she may be able to camp at decent armor with 10 focus, but she sill has VERY low base armor, so fire can kill her in a coupe turns of burning, especially if you can do any collateral damage to her with the shot as well.
The choir may be able to protect her jacks from shooting, but she herself has NO protection from it. just nail her down, and keep a loaded forsaken hidden somewhere if able, and a single blight bomb should destroy her (not likely to work cus she should target it down, but its still an option)

[Admiral_Arzar]

Play eLylyth and just shoot Harbinger with long-ranged beasts. Alternately, play Saeryn and just run straight at their 'jacks. I've also had some success with eThagrosh against Harbinger, as she's a super easy assassination target for Typhon and company.

[jhon]

In my theory-hordes I like the idea of Rhyas, with carni, angel, Scyth and forsaken.

Scyth begins the fall by charging several jacks and hopefully destroying one while tying up the others. then sling shot a carni with rapport at harby, if she is too far away then either assault her for the breath attack and help scyth or throw a light jack at her/choir. Angel is there for assassination redundancy and/or backfield threat. theory only but could be fun.

[agent red]

Vayl is down some spells against wm but she's still obscenely good in heavy on heavy cluster ****s thanks to incite, ds, and cat and mouse. She's loses rampager and talion transfers, and malice looses a lot of it utility but she can still break heavies like its going out of style.

[rexim]

I play eThag vs Harby a lot. It works quite nicely for most parts, run up far, back away when she feats and then kill 2 heavies and back with your feat, put some shredders in the way. Remember that Menoth does not have any pathfinder for jacks so use the terrain, and wreaks. But all this is kinda hard on 25pts since eThag needs a scythean and a seraph to actually out threat anything.

With a shooty harby list Saeryn looses way to much on the way in and then cant engage properly since stuff in the way wont die. Against a cheep melee jack spam pVayl is slowly whittled down. eVayl is rather bad against Harby since most of her tricks relies on upkeep spells. eLylyth only works if the opponent does not know how to hold the jackwall tight(until naga comes that is). Abby just does nothing vs Harby.

Shooting her with a ravegore sure is nice but then you have a ravegore in your list that is 10 points dead weight until you get that one shot. Then she takes 10 damage at most, purification and that fire is no more. Sure it buys you a round but you wont kill her that way. At least not in a jack list where she does not use her martyrdom.

[hausdorff space]

Vayl is down some spells against wm but she's still obscenely good in heavy on heavy cluster ****s thanks to incite, ds, and cat and mouse. She's loses rampager and talion transfers, and malice looses a lot of it utility but she can still break heavies like its going out of style.

That's what I was thinking.

Two Angels, each making a single armour piercing Charge attack under incite, then either repulsing or making a second attack before cat and mousing away is one damned solid alpha strike against a bunch of Harby lead PoM heavies. If you have terrain on the board you should be able to ensure there's little to no reprisal either.

The threat of an Angel charge should force the opponent to keep Harby back too.

... though my opinion may be heavily biased after watching a pVayl player decimate opponents repeatedly over the last few years.