Hordes vs. Warmachine Complaint Advice?

[ZackStack]

My new local game store is starting an escalation league next month and there is quite a bit of interest in WarmaHordes going around. We've been playing some demo games and having paint nights to get ready and it seems we have more Hordes players than Warmachine at this point... though we're still hoping to attract more players.

Regardless, we have had a few complaints from the Warmachiner's that the Hordes system's flexibility in assigning fury on the fly makes them easier to play and therefore more powerful than the Warmachine factions. I think the constant resource pool for their casters along with more powerful casters and potentially great numbers of warmachines based on points more than balances this... but wondered if anyone else could share some insights I could pass along to help everyone feel they they will be on even footing once we all get the hang of our armies. Thanks in advance!

[Triumph Of Man]

My new local game store is starting an escalation league next month and there is quite a bit of interest in WarmaHordes going around. We've been playing some demo games and having paint nights to get ready and it seems we have more Hordes players than Warmachine at this point... though we're still hoping to attract more players.

Regardless, we have had a few complaints from the Warmachiner's that the Hordes system's flexibility in assigning fury on the fly makes them easier to play and therefore more powerful than the Warmachine factions. I think the constant resource pool for their casters along with more powerful casters and potentially great numbers of warmachines based on points more than balances this... but wondered if anyone else could share some insights I could pass along to help everyone feel they they will be on even footing once we all get the hang of our armies. Thanks in advance!

You're playing at low points with mostly beasts and jacks I take it, that's never going to be a fair fight. Beasts stomp on your average Warjack.

Warmachine's strengths lies in their infantry which pound for pound are generally stronger than those found in Hordes.

Most people will probably agree the game doesn't get properly balanced until around the 35-50pt mark.

[rham7649]

Also keep in mind that there are some things that differ in the power and abilities of war-jacks and war-beasts. War-jacks tend to have more critical effects on their heavies where are beasts don't as well as the fact that when we run our beasts heavy we can frenzy as war-jacks cannot. It all balances out you just have to look at it. Look at the battleboxes for instance. Menoth: 2 heavies and 1 light jack Khador: 2 heavy jacks Cryx: 1 Heavy and 3 arc node lights. I don't know about retribution or mercs so I can't say there. All the Hordes boxes have 1 heavy and the rest are lights unless you are trolls we have three lights and no heavy. I have lost to warmachine boxes and hordes boxes. They are all balanced once you learn how to utilize what is in them. I have beat the Khador box with my Troll box.

[Triumph Of Man]

Also keep in mind that there are some things that differ in the power and abilities of war-jacks and war-beasts. War-jacks tend to have more critical effects on their heavies where are beasts don't as well as the fact that when we run our beasts heavy we can frenzy as war-jacks cannot. It all balances out you just have to look at it. Look at the battleboxes for instance. Menoth: 2 heavies and 1 light jack Khador: 2 heavy jacks Cryx: 1 Heavy and 3 arc node lights. I don't know about retribution or mercs so I can't say there. All the Hordes boxes have 1 heavy and the rest are lights unless you are trolls we have three lights and no heavy. I have lost to warmachine boxes and hordes boxes. They are all balanced once you learn how to utilize what is in them. I have beat the Khador box with my Troll box.

Battleboxes are very carefully put together to play against one another. They're a bit different.

[rham7649]

Battleboxes are very carefully put together to play against one another. They're a bit different.

Yes, I understand this, but I was just using them to make a point as the balance of the game.

[Hai-pe-neki]

Battleboxes are very carefully put together to play against one another. They're a bit different.

Really? There's a place in the multiverse where khador battlebox stands a chance against the cryx one?


And as far i have seen in the past, there are some warmachine casters that at 15 pt levels trumps largely over any hordes 15 pt lists that comes to my mind, especially if the hordes player tries to maximize on melee beasts.

[Wishing]

Battleboxes are very carefully put together to play against one another. They're a bit different.

Not sure I agree with this. I think the battleboxes are put together to serve as a good introduction to the game, from a very casual standpoint. They show off some of the things that characterise their faction in a straightforward way. They can all beat each other in a variety of ways when piloted by starting players, but for highly experienced and competitive players I'm not convinced they are particularly balanced.

With regards to the OP, my best advice is to consider WM and Hordes to be two different games. They can be combined, but that doesn't necessarily mean that combining them is a good idea. Whether it is or not will depend on the group. If the players in the group don't think the two games work well together, then try to consider the default game to be either Hordes v. Hordes or WM v. WM, with crossover games clearly labeled as such and only entered into at your own risk.

[ZackStack]

Thanks for the responses so far! Not a lot to put people's minds at ease perhaps other than the BB's balancing more with practice... But a realistic view of how the systems interact should be better than assuming they are equivalent.

[Blackraine]

Keep in mind, also, that there are other tradeoffs than just 'jacks vs. beasts or warmachine infantry vs. hordes infantry. Warbeasts must be in your control area to be forced (except for a few "bubble extenders" like those available to Circle and Legion). 'Jacks, on the other hand, need only start in your control area to be allocated fury, and are free to range well beyond it. This allows Warcasters to stay farther back from the fighting than Warlocks generally can. Certain warmachine casters/factions also have ways to go above their printed focus, whereas there are far, far fewer ways to go above printed fury in Hordes, with far more restrictions as well.

[traeplien]

It's also important to note that Warcasters tend to have higher fury values than Warlocks. I think the average in Warmachine (last I checked anyway) was around 6.5, while the average Fury value on warlocks was around 5.5. That extra 2" of control zone can make a BIG difference!

[Lighten]

I've never seen a meta where matching Hordes vs. Warmachine wasn't the default, and I don't see why you'd ever do that. We've got plenty of players who play both systems, and the win/loss ratios follow the players, not which system they're using at the time.

Admittedly, if you expand a Warmachine battlebox by adding more 'Jacks, you're going to be worse off than if you expand a Hordes battlebox by adding more beasts - as people have said, Warmachine's balance against Hordes isn't that lots of warjacks are just as good as lots of beasts, it's in their casters, feats, and infantry. Execpt very specific casters on either side, running Hordes infantry swarms or Warmachine jack swarms is a losing proposition.

The game can be unbalanced at low point levels, but that's a tendency to wind up with rock/paper/scissors matchups due to limited points, not due to a Warmachine vs. Hordes imbalance.