Solve the stormwall riddle for me

[Stephan Garmark]

Kraye with 2 stormwalls on the opposite side of the table. What can one do?
I can't really imagine any viable way to actually win over that setup unless I'm fielding the same.
Lets say we play 50 points but whatever else is in Krayes list is of little consequence, just him and those two walls is darn near unbeatable to me.

[Sacredsouless]

Kraye and like 9 Hunters.....you have a 4' x 4' board and he only threatens 12" of melee (10" from full tilt, 2" from reach). I say that because if he runs, he can't attack and you have Parry on the Hunters, so even if he runs the Full Tilted one he can't do jack except stare angrily as you retreat 6", shoot, and retreat another 5". I do see some issue with shooting, but thats where I would try to abuse the terrain. IE hiding in the forests and running away from them when he sends his Stormwalls in to them.

So with smart play and some luck I would say an army of Hunters under Kraye is a soft counter to Kraye w/ 2 Stormwalls. But otherwise I'm stumped. Maybe a Nemo list (any, though 1 or 2 would probably be best) with Stormwalls or Hammersmiths/Stormclads would be better.

[Ikras]

He threatens a lot more than 12". I say a lot but on a non feat turn charge he has a threat range of 15" (10" from full tilt, 3" from the charge, 2" from reach) and on feat turn it's up to 17". It would still be hard to catch them but the shooting should help thin things out I guess. It would be a hard one.

[PG_Tommeh]

Not to mention the amount of boosted-to-hit shots those 'walls can put into the hunters via guided fire if they have LOS. Odds are he's also running rangers, so that def14 isn't so hot.

I'd rather go for some minutemen, armlocking the 'walls to take away their guns, and if you lock 'em from behind he'll have to use his backline to kill them, which isn't that easy. Their guns can also hurt, and Kraye's low-ish defense doesn't help him there.

[JoeGuardsman]

Well don't over estimate Stormwall. Dual Colossals aren't going to be that effective, particularly when it is the Stormwall and you can really play against it's scalpel like nature. Kraye and two Stormwalls will have a decent amount of area denial but very little damage output. Playing against any dual Stormwall list will be about forcing the Stormwalls to do as little as possible which can be fairly easy depending on scenario.

Basically throwing things like Hunters that are higher cost single point models which the Stormwall is designed to kill is the wrong way to think about it. Stormwall likes very specific targets and it's easy to dictate the battle if you present different types of targets to him.

My experiences with Stormwall so far is that it will go down when it needs to go down, out play it and focus on the rest of the army and Stormcallers because Triangulations are the one good thing the Storm wall does without getting into melee and even then that's when he doesn't get in the way of his own Stormcallers seeing their targets.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

Wow. So it has come to this, has it?

You beat this the same way you always beat Kraye.

1) You walk through the shooting by being either too beefy or too numerous.
2) You deny his feat charge any good targets.
3) You grind out his army because you have way more attacks than he does, even if you lose some on the way in.

A Full Tilt-ed Stormwall is a glorified Stormclad. It certainly isn't an uncontrollable menace. Hem his point sinks in with infantry and shoot Kraye with Hunters.

[GunMageinTraining]

A pair of stormwalls is basically the shooting of 4 Defenders, 2 Cyclones, and the melee of 2.5 Stormclads. It's alot, but note, they aren't doing all of that at once, and they aren't anywhere near as resilient as that many jacks.

Don't get me wrong, it's got plenty of potential, and Stormwalls are very strong at anything they need to do, but a pack of banes charging in can still put plenty of hurt down. Run, Engage, Lock, or just bypass and get LoS on Kraye. It's a strong list for sure, but hardly unbeatable. Heavy armor lists will give it trouble and force the stormwalls to engage, where they aren't all that much better than a Stormclad.

[GreenJello]

Don't get me wrong, it's got plenty of potential, and Stormwalls are very strong at anything they need to do, but a pack of banes charging in can still put plenty of hurt down.

Honestly, this is a bad idea. One of the really nice things about the Stormwall is that it's covering fire templates forces Cryx to come up with another solution than jamming a bunch of banes into the problem. This applies to any faction with 1 wnd infantry they use to take down jacks.

DinoCzar (as usual) has the right of it. Hit it with a couple of jacks and watch it die.

[TKaz84]

Siege can use Foxhole to drop one of them into cover (a 5" template is just barely bigger than the huge base) and go for an assassination attempt.

[GunMageinTraining]

DinoCzar (as usual) has the right of it. Hit it with a couple of jacks and watch it die.

Obviously Covering Fire can stop banes in their tracks, and many melee threats, but the point is, Stormwalls aren't an incredibly amount more resilient than any 2 heavies. Hit them hard enough and they will drop. Two sets of Covering Fire templates though, provides far more coverage than 1, and can seriously slow infantry heavy forces, but it's not insurmountable, and that's largely what scenarios are for. With such a low model count, it's going to be easy to take/hold points, or force them to come within range to be killed. Their offensive firepower is well concentrated, but really, no stronger than a similar amount of points worth of other stuff. A Stormstrider has a very similar ranged offensive profile, for half the cost.

[Josh]

eHaley with a bonded Stormwall and Goreman can deal with double colossal pretty well.

[PG_Agamemnon]

To anyone that has not faced it yet. Double stromwalls is a pain to overcome. Last week I ran them against Skorn beast heavy and was able to win both games. Granted one was a narrow victory from a failed thresh hold check. The second was pretty decisive.

I would say if you face off against two colossals you are going to have to concentrate on one at a time. Keep in mind that if he can get one of them on a hill the only place you will be able to hide is behind a forest or piece of terrain from ranged shots. If I was playing the two colossals the pods would be for blocking/jamming up heavy jacks/beasts covering fire to stop almost all nonincorporeal single wound infantry. The 4 big guns are going to be your problem. Guided fire is worth the FOC in this case if he is shooting at your caster. Here is the kicker... if he puts pursuit on your one heavy that gets through it will never be able to hit his Kray (parry).

The hunter pack sounds like fun but you will probably loose them fast.... and it will take more than one round of shooting to down one. At 35 points you can have 6 hunters and something else. That is effectively dice-4x6. Figuring all 6 boost damage that is average 39 points of damage.... is spread out and not taking down a system. So on his turn he casts guided fire and directly smacks 4 hunters probably taking 3 out of the game by dropping either cortex or long arm.

Here is how I would say deal with it...
1. Jack heavy... and I mean heavy jack heavy. Darius FT will get all of them running through CF to get to there. Next turn I can only imagine the fun as 6 hammersmiths and an IC beat them into submission.
2. Assaulting Blades with AS on Stryker1's feat turn are going to do massive amounts of damage to anything.
3. A Constance infantry swarm might work. When Constance gets there after it is surrounded by PK's she should have an amazingly large number of potential flashing blade swings. If you can get both of them in her 2" reach and flanked she will be a MAT9 weapon master... that ignores any ARM buffs. Dice -7 for 20+ swings could potentially kill two colossals.
4. Stryker2 can kill one pretty easily. If you jam up the other I would be pretty confident you would get a second turn.
5. Caine2 might be fun.... Magic bullet into Kray. Those Boys are going to have a rough time hitting him on dice rolls.

You are going to want a few key models in there me thinks. Eyriss2 to remove AS, Gorman would be nice for black oil or rust. Also of note is that if placed correctly you can black oil one of your own guys to catch both colossals.

You could always run Caine1 as a super solo and basically ignore the Stormwalls and go after Kray himself. It should not be to hard to get LOS on him each turn and whittle his health down before you flash away. Caine1's army just goes around the jacks and pushes him away from them.

[Josh]

Here is the kicker... if he puts pursuit on your one heavy that gets through it will only ever get one free strike on a colossal and never be able to hit his Kray (parry).

Wrong, Colossals can't move with pursuit.

[PG_Agamemnon]

.... that is correct.... Will I ever get used to the new rules? Eventually.

Fixed the other post to reflect my lack of paying attention.

[jlav]

Interesting, I wonder if 2 Conquests, or 2 (other faction) colossals are so much of a problem to Cygnar? I get the idea that what sets the stormwall apart is the pods clogging heavy charge lanes, while the covering fire block infantry. I know I've abused that to no end keeping my opponent tied up from moving models where he wanted. At the rate that this kind of discussion is coming up in the forum, I wouldn't be surprised if the pods became an action.

[ticklord]

2 judicators + 2 choirs + 2 vassals They only require 4 foc to operate at full power, under Psevvy one of them can get vision and the other gets dw, every turn 6 shots pow 17, feat pretty much leaves those walls with one turn with no foc, ashes to ashes will kill halfjacks and mechanics. every turn you sing batte, activate jacks and then passage them making the walls usless, only counter is siege, and explosivo is not that great when you need to feed at least 2 foc on each wall each turn narrowing alot of usefull spells on a 6 foc caster sink his low foc alot.

50pnts

PSevvy

Judicator

Judicator

Blessing of Vengance

min choir

min choir

Hierophant

vassal mech

vassal mech

vassal

vassal

wrack

I think that will eat 2 walls easy. judicators 1 foc each turn is better when you field 2, leaving Sevvy with 4 foc, 3 to upkeep some spells, vision, Defendes ward and eye, and with hiero and wracks he can pull that ashes to ashes needed to kill the walls suport.