I'm not a totem hunter, I'm just Zu-curious

[ExiledinElysium]

Greetings folks,

Once again I've found myself pondering the elusive fifth Hordes faction. My best guess, and also my hope, is that it will be the same race as the totem hunter, from a huge jungle realm full of giant insect warbeasts. That being said, this thread is not about what I want a fifth faction to have or do, or whether a fifth faction will ever even happen. Instead, I'm just looking for some more information about Zu and about the totem hunter. I don't have all the old MkI books, or any of the original IKRP books, but I'd be willing to get a hold of them if they had good information.

Therefore, open call: can anyone point me in the right direction to learn more about the origin of totem hunters, whether it is in fact the continent of Zu, and what one would find on Zu? Basically anything that might help me privately speculate on my wishlist.

Thanks in advance,

Exile

[Dan from Chicago]

Why do people assume there's going to be another Hordes Faction?

[Alex C]

Why do people assume there's going to be another Hordes Faction?

Because people seem to have an obsession with Hordes "catching up" to Warmachine?

[ExiledinElysium]

Why do people assume there's going to be another Hordes Faction?

Note I specifically said I'm not saying there will be another Hordes faction. I just want there to be one, and I'm asking for information about what I want it to be. (1) I really like symmetry; (2) I think an insect-motif faction would be awesome. That's all--I'm not saying there will be a fifth faction. That's not the point of this thread.

[TrollSlayer]

Not much is known about Zu, period. What we do know is that (1) there are humans there (2) they have had contact with the Orgoth (3) totem hunters come from Zu (3) a particularly voracious dog-sized lizard comes from Zu...thats it. PP could take Zu any way they want since so little is known about it, I am voting for dinosaur and carnivorous plant warbeasts myself.

As for those questioning the possibility of a SIXTH Hordes faction (Minions count!)...'Retribution' baby!

[MagnustheJust]

There is a 5th Hordes faction, or rather un-faction - Minions...

The Gators & Piggies are not amused that you keep forgetting them!!

[ExiledinElysium]

Not much is known about Zu, period. What we do know is that (1) there are humans there (2) they have had contact with the Orgoth (3) totem hunters come from Zu (3) a particularly voracious dog-sized lizard comes from Zu...thats it. PP could take Zu any way they want since so little is known about it, I am voting for dinosaur and carnivorous plant warbeasts myself.

As for those questioning the possibility of a SIXTH Hordes faction (Minions count!)...'Retribution' baby!

Would you happen to know which book(s) these bits of information came from? I'm sure I can find copies of the old books online somewhere, but I don't want to just buy all of them right now.

[ExiledinElysium]

Not much is known about Zu, period. What we do know is that (1) there are humans there (2) they have had contact with the Orgoth (3) totem hunters come from Zu (3) a particularly voracious dog-sized lizard comes from Zu...thats it. PP could take Zu any way they want since so little is known about it, I am voting for dinosaur and carnivorous plant warbeasts myself.

Would you happen to know which book(s) these bits of information came from? I'm sure I can find copies of the old books online somewhere, but I don't want to just buy all of them right now.

I didn't include minions because, however cool they are, they're just not a faction lol.

[Vicomte Athos]

I wouldn'tmind Zu being added as a third pact for Minions but I don't think the game needs a whole extra faction to it. It is already bloated as is IMO.

[TrollSlayer]

At OP, the Monsternomicon books have references to the Totem Hunter and the lizard dog I mentioned. I think there were some vague references in the IK Character guide as well.

At Magnus: Don't get your bear in a bunch! I already pointed out that Minions are a faction too.

At Athos (and any others with similar views): This game is not bloated until we get our Jungle monster warbeasts! Now why don't you go troll the Troll forums.

[MagnustheJust]

At Magnus: Don't get your bear in a bunch! I already pointed out that Minions are a faction too.

{in Beaker-esque tones}


Mi mi mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-!!

[Coinlord]

No source, but I think Shea is one of the few to have been there and back. If i recall correctly, in an insider about common people problems in the IK, Doug Seacat mentioned that Coffee and Chocolate both come from the port in Zu and are VERY rare and expensive.

[lifelesspoet]

[QUOTE=TrollSlayer;1520713 I am voting for dinosaur and carnivorous plant warbeasts myself. ![/QUOTE]

Skorne already has 2 'dinosaurs' so I don't imagine that being a faction.

[Terraneaux]

Wasn't it also implied that the residents of Zu had mind-based supernatural powers of some sort (i.e. DnD style Psionics)?

[TrollSlayer]

I never heard anything about psionics in this world. Also, when Skorne gets a T. Rex-esque warbeast I will happily dub them the dino faction.

[ExiledinElysium]

I never heard anything about psionics in this world. Also, when Skorne gets a T. Rex-esque warbeast I will happily dub them the dino faction.

I think we can already safely say that prehistoric stuff is the province of Skorne. The titans are basically mammoths, their cavalry are sabertooth tigers, they've got an anklyosaurus-themed warbeast and siege engine, and they just recently acquired a pterodactyl. What more evidence could we need that they're the dino faction? I'm crossing my fingers that Skorne will get a t-rex as a unique character heavy.

I hadn't thought of carnivorous plants--I really like that idea. I would rather the dominant theme be insectoids, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. Zu warlocks could use mostly insects, but also have a few different carnivorous plants at their disposal.

[The_Trent]

It is official Magnus you are my favorite person on the forums hands down.

[Jables]

It gets mentioned a few times in the IK books. It has both jungles and open grasslands with giant snakes. Shea has been there and there is trade between Zu and the IK. The Totem Hunter comes from there but the main population are an "olive skinned" people. Also, no outsiders are allowed though I'm sure Pendrake has been (where hasn't that guy been?). I like to imagine it like Japan during the closed country edicts.

[Wishing]

THough Skorne definitely have a dinosaur theme, I don't think that means that they're the only ones that can have one. Themes don't have to be confined to a single faction, just think of the "chitinous serpent" concept, which could describe either the Naga, the Razorworm, or Skarath, all from different factions. All the factions apart from trolls have winged warbeasts too. So far Skorne have some plated dinosaurs and a flying dinosaur. A Zu faction could easily have mesoamerican-looking bipedal dinosaurs. I see no problem with that.

I also agree that PP will definitely have thought of some possibilities for a Retribution-equivalent faction for Hordes. They are clearly really into having symmetry between Hordes and WM, so when/if it seems practically feasible, I'm sure we will see another faction eventually.

[DrakkenBlut]

I thought froggies (Croaks, Anura) come from Zu? And shouldn't the next Hordes faction be Infernals?

[doom_reaver]

Rockbottoms entry in the current mercenaries book confirms that he has a small fleet of ships at his disposal and that they have ventured as far as Zu. Not only that but he has brokered several lucrative trade agreements with the inhabitants. So evidently it musn't be a wholly hostile continent.

[Decade]

I thought froggies (Croaks, Anura) come from Zu? And shouldn't the next Hordes faction be Infernals?

Croaks come from the islands off the south-eastern coast of Immoren, where many tribes have been enslaved by the Skorne.

There was something in NQ 30 called a cradle thief that comes from Zu. Its a big, cobra-like creature that has the ability to generate a hypnotic drone using the rattle-scales along its hood.

[doom_reaver]

There was something in NQ 30 called a cradle thief that comes from Zu. Its a big, cobra-like creature that has the ability to generate a hypnotic drone using the rattle-scales along its hood.

I vaguely remember that myself is it a Tatzylwurm or a derivative creature there of? are theyr from Zu?

[ExiledinElysium]

THough Skorne definitely have a dinosaur theme, I don't think that means that they're the only ones that can have one. Themes don't have to be confined to a single faction, just think of the "chitinous serpent" concept, which could describe either the Naga, the Razorworm, or Skarath, all from different factions. All the factions apart from trolls have winged warbeasts too. So far Skorne have some plated dinosaurs and a flying dinosaur. A Zu faction could easily have mesoamerican-looking bipedal dinosaurs. I see no problem with that.

I see your point, but I also think you're blurring a few important semantic lines. "Chitinous serpent" is a concept, but it's not a theme. Several iterations of that concept can fairly show up in different factions without screwing anything up because no one faction relies on that concept for its overall motif. Winged beasts also isn't a theme. Having wings per se doesn't implicate much of anything, so of course multiple factions can field winged warbeasts. Dinosaurs, on the other hand, is a broad enough category to have theme potential, and I would say it has been applied specifically to Skorne. And it's not just dinosaurs--skorne's motif is that their beasts are all similar to prehistoric creatures. They've got giant elephants (mammoths anyone?) and sabertooth tigers, but also anklyosaurus and pterodactyl. Prehistoric creatures covers dinosaurs. You say their having some kinds of dinosaurs doesn't preclude another faction from having other kinds of dinosaurs, but I just straight disagree. Having another faction with lots of dinosaurs would really tread on the toes of what makes Skorne unique. It would be the same as making a new Warmachine faction that was an oppressive theocracy with lots of priests. It doesn't matter how different you make that religion, that's still Protectorate's motif. I really want this game to have velociraptors and a t-rex, but I think Skorne should get them. The raptors would be an inexpensive light warbeast that gets benefits when there are more than one, and the t-rex would be a unique character heavy that is the only one of its kind to ever have been successfully captured and trained, by a particularly enterprising paingiver warlock.

That being said, I'm really torn in terms of what a Zu faction could be. On the one hand, several of you have correctly pointed out that mesoamerican cultures have not yet been tapped for motifs in this game, and it would be ripe for the pickings. I'm not sure I like the idea of having "the black people faction," but if they want to make the faction out of the human inhabitants of Zu, that's evidently what we'd end up with. Still, basing the visual style on the Mayans would allow for broad design space. A few things give me pause, though. First, any human tribes based on mesoamerican cultures would invariably be visually similar to the Tharn. Second, making a new faction out of humans would completely waste the amazing opportunity they have to expand on the totem hunter's race. Third, a faction with big jungle snakes would just be white noise--reptiles is nothing new. Basically, as much as I like the mesoamerican theme in the abstract, I don't think it's different enough from existing products to make a good full faction in practice.

Much of the above is why I think a Zu faction, if it were to exist, would have to be built around things we haven't yet been told. We don't know what part of Zu the totem hunter is from. I imagine a plot arc that's very Raiders of the Lost Ark, as someone has already mentioned (either here or in another thread I've been in this week). Expedition is trading with the humans in the northern part of Zu, and they venture into the jungle. Turns out the humans are in the north in the plains and grasslands near the coast because the jungles going south are way too dangerous. They're inhabited by an entirely alien race that commands all sorts of crazy jungle monsters. The expedition steals something really important, and the jungle denizens follow it back to Immoren. As stated above, I would want that faction to have big bugs and angry plants. Neither of those has any representation so far in the Iron Kingdoms, so there's just so much they could do with it. You could still tap mesoamerican culture for pyramids and the totem hunter race's culture and stuff, but it'd be more like these guys are the crystal skull aliens than the primitive humans who worshipped them. They got their beasties by using their magic to enslave the queens of all the giant-bug hives in the jungle. Only by subjugating the queen are they able to tap into her hive mind to control individual bugs.

I'm getting the heebie-jeebies just thinking about the awesome creepy miniatures PP could come up with...

On a different note, could you (DrakkenBlut) tell me more about infernals? I don't know much about them and I'm intrigued.

[Oilslick]

I thought that Mr. Wall's monkey is from Zu.

[MathPasta]

Much of the above is why I think a Zu faction, if it were to exist, would have to be built around things we haven't yet been told. We don't know what part of Zu the totem hunter is from. I imagine a plot arc that's very Raiders of the Lost Ark, as someone has already mentioned (either here or in another thread I've been in this week). Expedition is trading with the humans in the northern part of Zu, and they venture into the jungle. Turns out the humans are in the north in the plains and grasslands near the coast because the jungles going south are way too dangerous. They're inhabited by an entirely alien race that commands all sorts of crazy jungle monsters. The expedition steals something really important, and the jungle denizens follow it back to Immoren. As stated above, I would want that faction to have big bugs and angry plants. Neither of those has any representation so far in the Iron Kingdoms, so there's just so much they could do with it. You could still tap mesoamerican culture for pyramids and the totem hunter race's culture and stuff, but it'd be more like these guys are the crystal skull aliens than the primitive humans who worshipped them. They got their beasties by using their magic to enslave the queens of all the giant-bug hives in the jungle. Only by subjugating the queen are they able to tap into her hive mind to control individual bugs.

And the queens could easily be colossals.

[DrakkenBlut]

Infernals are in general terms demonologists, entering pacts with shadowy otherworldly forces, that grant them knowledge, powers or creatures. Those creatures are already a part of the PP lore, some of them described in detail in Monsternomicon, and human Infernals already exist as minis, check the IK PP range (Umbrals and Infernal Curator). The creatures would work well as beasts in Hordes mechanics. Because of the already present fluff for them they would be very easy to incorporate as a new faction, that is based in Iron kingdoms as occult worshipers, now assembling in numbers enough to form an army of their own, perhaps due to escalating conflict, souls escaping, otherworldly forces taking a keen interest or other reasons.

I could be mistaken about a few details here, since I didn't pay that much attention to that part of the fluff.

I'd like to get a glimpse into the continent of Zu, maybe there's a dragon or two there somewhere.

[TrollSlayer]

Infernals are demons (not precisely, but it gives you the idea), Infernalists are people who make pacts with Infernals, they give souls to the Infernals in exchange for magical power. Some believe that humans received arcane power because Thamar gave the Infernals the Elven gods in exchange. Infernals use souls as currencey and to create foot soldiers to fight in the wars between various Infernal Lords. A Fury mechanic really dosen't make any sense with them, especially considering just how enormously powerful they are. If anything they would probably show up on the side of the Cryxians, but they have no interest in the affairs of this world aside from collecting souls from gullible or desperate humans.

[gunslingerpro]

The FOW: Pirates of the Broken Coast ends with Rockbottom + Shae getting the Mercanian League's maps to Zu. They mention that they are priceless. Beyond that and the entries in FOW: Mercaneries, Monsternomicon, and FOW: Minions, I know of little else that mentions Zu.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

I'm crossing my fingers that Skorne will get a t-rex as a unique character heavy.

Especially if he has a rule like:

Wee bitty arms: This model must sacrifice both its movement and action to stand up.

-Rick

[ExiledinElysium]

Especially if he has a rule like:

Wee bitty arms: This model must sacrifice both its movement and action to stand up.

-Rick

Hahaaaa perfect


As far as infernals go, what you guys are telling me doesn't sound like nearly enough to comprise an entire faction. Infernalists would be much more appropriate as a new minion compact (is that the right word?). It's the same problem as this Cult of Cyriss business people are always talking about--it's just too small of a group to make a full faction. The Cult would be a great merc group, just like infernalists would be a great minion group--and I really hope they do this eventually--but neither would be an appropriate faction. A new alien race from a new continent, on the other hand, offers plenty of open space (no pun intended) in which to design. Now if the writers went in a completely different direction, and had the Orgoth return, then I'd say infernalists would just be part of that faction. I just don't see that happening, though. I think the writers are smart enough to know that the Orgoth are best left as history.

[alchahest]

one might think that meso-american dinosaur people may be stepping entirely too hard on another game's toes.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

Don't forget, the Maiden of Gears is coming back, and when she does, the Cult of Cyriss will probably get a lot bigger.

-Rick

[ExiledinElysium]

one might think that meso-american dinosaur people may be stepping entirely too hard on another game's toes.

Which is just one more reason to not go in that direction. Keep the dinosaurs with Skorne, and give jungle-folk something new and different.

[Unknown_Lifeform]

That mention of japan's got me thinking of samurai and ninjas commanded by dark sorcerers summoning daemon/djinn like entities...

I wouldn't want a T-rex for my skorne. Just thinking about it wanting to join in with the titans with their two handed throw power attacks is so sad

[ExiledinElysium]

That mention of japan's got me thinking of samurai and ninjas commanded by dark sorcerers summoning daemon/djinn like entities...

I wouldn't want a T-rex for my skorne. Just thinking about it wanting to join in with the titans with their two handed throw power attacks is so sad

I think the t-rex would be just find with it's "bite your effing head off and swallow it whole" power attack.

I too am fond of samurai and ninja, but nonetheless I hope they never bring that into IK. So far they've done a pretty good job of not directly pillaging any real world culture. There are similarities and hints, but nothing too overt. They should keep it that way. Besides, there's plenty of ninja visual style already in the Nyss.

[hackdZ]

That mention of japan's got me thinking of samurai and ninjas commanded by dark sorcerers summoning daemon/djinn like entities...

I wouldn't want a T-rex for my skorne. Just thinking about it wanting to join in with the titans with their two handed throw power attacks is so sad

I've always thought that some of the Skorne warlocks look kind of Samurai-ish. The dude with the 2 Katana's, w/e his name is? His armor seriously makes me think Desert Samurai.

[Oilslick]

I've always thought that some of the Skorne warlocks look kind of Samurai-ish. The dude with the 2 Katana's, w/e his name is? His armor seriously makes me think Desert Samurai.

That is definitely an aspect of Skorne. I think the Skorne are very much based off of feudal Japan.

As to not wanting to be too much like GW, meaning no dino's for a hypothetical Zu. PP has put it's one spin on things like this in the past. Cygnar= blue and gold fluff good guys. The Empire might not be Sigmar but it's close. Retribution has some Eldar like things going on.

[ExiledinElysium]

That is definitely an aspect of Skorne. I think the Skorne are very much based off of feudal Japan.

As to not wanting to be too much like GW, meaning no dino's for a hypothetical Zu. PP has put it's one spin on things like this in the past. Cygnar= blue and gold fluff good guys. The Empire might not be Sigmar but it's close. Retribution has some Eldar like things going on.

Ya know, you're right! Legion has a bit of a ninja thing goin' on, and Skorne has some samurai feel. I had looked at Skorne as strictly Persian, but there are a lot of influences--it's got some Egypt, a lot of Persia, and some feudal Japan. PP really does go all over the map and they give everything their own unique twists. Protectorate is clearly based heavily on the medieval Catholic church, but there's also a lot about them that smacks of Crusades-era Islam.

Combining jungles and dinosaurs wouldn't automatically make it like Warhammer Lizardmen, but that would be a great reason to do something completely original. Besides, why bother with the trouble of deciding which dinos to give to Skorne and which to give to a new faction. Just let Skorne occupy the field on that one. Plants and bugs...wink wink.

In other news, if anyone wants to be conspire with me to expand on my idea, drop me a PM. Sometimes I get bored and like to kill time with pointless speculation and homebrewing.

[Autumn Stone]

Link to coffee from zu

http://privateerpress.com/community/...ider-8-15-2011

Cheers
A.S.