PKreoss and PSeverius 35 Points (Not SR, Just for Learning)

[Dearborn]

So, I'm new to the hobby and the faith as a whole, and am currently up to 15 points of Menoth (Choir, Vassal and Battlegroup). Now, my PKreoss 25 point list is pretty much locked in, but I'm still having trouble with the moving parts of jumping from 25 to 35. I'd also like to have a list that can support other casters so I can try them out. At 25 points, my army is:

High Exemplar Kreoss (+5)
-Reckoner (-8)
-Vanquisher (-8)

-Exemplar Errant w/UA (-10)

-Choir of Menoth (-2)
-Vassal of Menoth (-2)

A solid 25 points designed to get me to the table and get some wins under my belt (currently 1-4). Now, jumping up to 35 points, I'd like to include a Redeemer and Wracks (to give PKreoss the focus for 3 jacks). This leaves me with 3 points left. Should I go for PEiryss? I hear good things from everyone about her, but I don't know how much she benefits the pop 'n drop per say. The list would then be:

High Exemplar Kreoss (+5)
-Reckoner (-8)
-Redeemer (-6)
-Vanquisher (-8)

-Exemplar Errant w/UA (-10)

-Choir of Menoth (-2)
-Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios (-3)
-Vassal of Menoth (-2)
-The Wracks (-1)

The great thing about this list is switching to PSevvy would be as easy as switching casters out and swapping the Redeemer for BoV. But in both lists, is PEiryss the best choice for those last 3 points? Are there any glaring issues with these lists in other areas? All advice is appreciated.

[Wulfy]

for three points you are limited,
Vilmon
Eiryss
Senaschal
Nicia

Or a mechanic and any of a number of 2 pt mercs or solos.

If you are new, it might be a good idea, instead of adding in a merc you dont know very well, a mechanic and another vassal. You will not regret having a vassal for your Reckoner and one for your Vanquisher. Just a thought. If you insist on three points, you will just as much use out of Nicia as you will out of Eiryss. They have different roles. Eiryss is usally messing with enemy jacks or helping an assassination run.

Nicia will not be going after jacks.

If you want to mess with jacks you take the KE Seneschal.

[QuickDraw]

for three points you are limited,
Vilmon
Eiryss
Senaschal
Nicia

Or a mechanic and any of a number of 2 pt mercs or solos.

If you are new, it might be a good idea, instead of adding in a merc you dont know very well, a mechanic and another vassal. You will not regret having a vassal for your Reckoner and one for your Vanquisher. Just a thought. If you insist on three points, you will just as much use out of Nicia as you will out of Eiryss. They have different roles. Eiryss is usally messing with enemy jacks or helping an assassination run.

Nicia will not be going after jacks.

If you want to mess with jacks you take the KE Seneschal.

I'm fairly new too and currently jumping up to 35 with these same 2 casters in a league. We have to stick with the battlebox, but at 35 its not a big deal.

Vilmon is my current 3 pt add in fav. The 4 dice charge w/Kreoss on the feat turn is great. He is also amazing just by sticking him out and turning on his special abilities (immune to non magic, +5 armor). Great body guard for Sevvy. Though at 35 i'm really liking 2 vassals.

[Dearborn]

I feel like the Paladins would be much better as a unit. As solos I can't do things like D Ward and such, but I think they're awesome too. I feel like two vassals would be overkill, but luckily
They're so cheap I can try it out and see. I had thought PEiryss was a very popular merc and somewhat of a staple in my local scene, but I wanted to grab something that will benefit Sevvy and Kreoss moreso that just what everyone else says is good. With two vassals, that leaves a point for a mechanic, but I wonder if I'm using the best support setup at 8 points of my army (Vassals, Wracks, Choir and mechanic).

[DaNDeMeNTo]

Based on this 25pt list you posted above:


High Exemplar Kreoss (+5)
-Reckoner (-8)
-Vanquisher (-8)

-Exemplar Errant w/UA (-10)

-Choir of Menoth (-2)
-Vassal of Menoth (-2)

I'd add a Redeemer, the Covenant of Menoth, and Rhupert Carvolo. I wouldn't worry about focus too much... sure, the Redeemer is a focus hog, but the Vanquisher will barely need any focus at all in conjunction with the vassal. And Kreoss, imho, is fine running a Reckoner + Redeemer. The pop n' drop threat of this list is serious. Book + Rhupert, ofc, will give you the infamous 'Errant + DW + Tough + no KD' combo. Prepare to own and lose some friends along the way ;-)

[Dearborn]

Is the KD coverage from the Book really that important? I always thought it was more of a meta-dependent thing. I've not faced any Knock Down yet. I also heard that having Rhupert and the UA is a bit too much for only one unit. I'm hesitant to drop the wracks, as that leaves Kreoss with 5 focus per turn (Upkeeping DW and Lam). I think maybe Rhupert could be a good choice, though. So I take it the consensus is PEiryss is no good with PKreoss or PSevvy?

[Craaag]

With pSeverious I would want eEiryss before pEiryss as the epic version can debuff upkeep spells. Something pKreoss with Purification doesn't need, but very useful for Severious who can pretty much only deny that after the Feat turn if he tags the enemy Warcaster, which doesn't usually happen all that often as you'll want him safe in the backfield and a good opponent won't be getting too close.

That said I'd agree with the general consensus that you won't really need either version of eiryss at this point.

Oh and as far as KD goes the better your opponents get the more you'll see it. Throws, slams, maybe an imposter Kreoss even! I just had 2 jacks thrown at each other and land on their butts tonight because I swapped out the Covenant for a Paladin for fun. Turned out the Paladin wasn't that fun afterall.

[Dearborn]

Perhaps I simply do not yet grasp the utility of the Covenant. So, with a Redeemer and the Covenant locked in, I've got 2 points left. Suggestions?

[Dearborn]

Perhaps I simply do not yet grasp the utility of the Covenant. So, with a Redeemer and the Covenant locked in, I've got 2 points left. Suggestions?

[DaNDeMeNTo]

+1 to what Craaag said. The better your opponents get, the more valuable the Book becomes. Just two examples why I recommended the Book in the list above:

1) No KD helps your vassal immensely, as good opponents will try to get around enliven by KDing your jacks. KD Jack = no move from enliven. Maybe you haven't used enliven that much yet, as it IS tempting to auxillary attack with shooty Jacks alot. However, enliven is extremely potent and the book helps it a lot. Try to enliven one of your heavies @ turns 2 and/or 3 and see how hard they become to kill by opposing heavies.

2) No KD is very potent in the list suggested by me above because Rhupert gives Tough to the DW Errants. If tough triggers and saves your model from dying, it is KD. The book, however, says 'no KD', which overrides the KD from tough. That way, your Errants can (potentially) tough it out all game without ever getting KD.

On top of that, if you feel you don't need the no KD bubble at a given moment, you can have a 'no enemy spells' bubble instead, which can be occasionally powerful, or you can add auto-fire to your Errants' attacks, which can be quite nasty at times. Having said all that, if you play in a group with relatively new players who aren't on top of the rules yet, hardly ever use Power Attacks, don't recognize the importance of KD opposing models etc. the book becomes more optional. In these cases, try out a Reclaimer instead of the book. Fantastic solo that alleviates the focus strain you voiced your concern about above.

[FearMeMortals]

For Sevvy1, Eiyrss2 is probably better.