Core Units besides Nyss and Death Star

[nerdkingdan]

I am some what new, 15 games now, one thing I have noticed now is that all the competative lists, and those that win tournaments are based on either the winter guard death star or the Nyss. Jamie P has a third one based on IFP, but only after 2 lists with Nyss and WG death star, were run. All of them are paired with kayazy.

So the observation is that you must run one of the two in a competitive list, with Kayazy. Going through Jamie p's list to not have that with Irusk uses a lot of character components such as Saxon, great bears and so on. I feel like he struggled developing this list. And was fairly lucky that the format did not require him to use it more than once.

The point of this thread I guess is to ask how to avoid this? I feel like simply saying don't run that fails to address the issue. IFP are simply poor in comparison, and other options seem just bad.

I am trying to come up with lists that are strong, that break this crutch, and I keep coming to the conclusion you can't. What am I missing? Please do not take this as complaining, however what can replace Nyss and Winterguard to pair with kayazy in a third list character restricted format, besides IFP with an army of merc solos?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Play what you like to play?

[Baptism By Ice]

...and what, exactly, is wrong with pIrusk running two squads of IFP with a handful of merc buddies? If you haven't run pIrusk, let alone with a bunch of IFP that can become weapon masters at his will, then you don't understand the true allure of this build. Plus, for the ultimate tanking, you can take BDIFP who can shield wall and mini feat to become arm 22. Tack on IF and pIrusk's feat, and now you have def 16 arm22 dudes who are 4+ no-knockdown tough. Oh, and they can charge for a pow 13+4d6 damage roll with precision strike.

Also, please note that Jamie P's lists were run pre-colossals. I'm not saying "ZOMG COLOSSALS ARE RUINING HIGH DEF DUDEZ MAI KAYAZY AND NYSS ARE TERRIBAD NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO", but rather that the ensuing shift in the national/competitive meta is yet unknown. At face value, it appears that thigns are gearing up to go more anti-infantry, especially anti-ARM11 infantry. *shrug* Only time will tell.

tl;dr: try out pIrusk with IFP and mercs. It is super fun, and super hurty.

[@Kriegsspiele]

First things first: the IFP are highly competitive. I've even seen 2 lists with 2 max units + UA (regular & black) and of course the Kayazy on the last team tournament and both with very good final placements. And I personally think they are indeed competitive, too.

What I'd like to add to the IFP, WGID, and Nyss are the Uhlans (IFU). Yes, seriously! The Uhlans are Khador's 4th and very strong option besides the 3 obvious. And for sure: they do indeed need to be played differently, with different targets and tactics, but they very likely excel the other 3 "infantry" options therefore.

[Tossy]

That pIrusk list is great but suffers from actually hitting things, mat 6 is bad mmmmkay. The double IFP unit thing is actually pretty awesome in general though. I have taken a similar list against beast heavy factions and Menoth a lot and it seems to do well... but if I ever come across infantry I struggle because IFP are easy to kill and don't do much to retaliate.

Saying all this we are not lacking for awesome troops or troop choices. Even the big guns won't keep our less armoured troops down as much as people think. The anti-infantry crap was already there.

Saying that I have at least 3 competitive lists that have less used troops like Uhlans, Shockies, Boomhowlers, doom reavers and have only 1 of the holy trinity (Nyss, kayazy, WGI)

[Mustakrakish]

The clear answer to this is Epic Butcher with as many doom reavers without escort that you can take.

[profparm]

IIRC Jaime P stated that the pIrusk IFP-heavy list was there more for Hordes, and it was actually the list he played the most at his last big win (although I believe it was also Divide and Conquer, so which list he used most may not have as much weight).

As someone who has played a bunch of IFP, they're pretty good. Honestly, I think the best unit depends heavily on your warcaster and style.

Also, my very favorite core unit is Great Bears. They rock some serious socks.

[ScottEBJJ]

I am some what new, 15 games now, one thing I have noticed now is that all the competative lists, and those that win tournaments are based on either the winter guard death star or the Nyss. Jamie P has a third one based on IFP, but only after 2 lists with Nyss and WG death star, were run. All of them are paired with kayazy.

So the observation is that you must run one of the two in a competitive list, with Kayazy. Going through Jamie p's list to not have that with Irusk uses a lot of character components such as Saxon, great bears and so on. I feel like he struggled developing this list. And was fairly lucky that the format did not require him to use it more than once.

The point of this thread I guess is to ask how to avoid this? I feel like simply saying don't run that fails to address the issue. IFP are simply poor in comparison, and other options seem just bad.

I am trying to come up with lists that are strong, that break this crutch, and I keep coming to the conclusion you can't. What am I missing? Please do not take this as complaining, however what can replace Nyss and Winterguard to pair with kayazy in a third list character restricted format, besides IFP with an army of merc solos?

Do you really feel comfortable making those statements with a grand total of 15 games under your belt?

[Saekyn]

Also, my very favorite core unit is Great Bears. They rock some serious socks.

This may be a bit of a derail, but I almost never get mine to work for me. They either die to shooting on their advance, don't make it to combat at all (they chill behind while others win the day), or miss all their attack rolls on Deathjack. I've also kept track of my tough rolls: I've made 1 tough roll for them in 15. Not exactly the resilient heroes the lore speaks of, in my experience.


Anyway, my main core unit when I started was Kayazy, for about three months, so I had easily three dozen games with just them. Taking IFP last week for the first time was an interesting change, but I'd argue they have completely different uses. My first-blush opinion of IFP was to take them for an anti-heavy aspect, rather than throwing them at infantry, since MAT6 will only get you so far. They worked amazingly well at tying up my opponent's infantry, however, so that Zerkova could move up for the assassination. Kayazy, on the other hand, I love to throw at low-MAT footsoldiers so they can eventually pop their mini-feat and assassinate something really important.

[Picklechu]

IFP have CMA too, don't they?

[@Kriegsspiele]

IFP have CMA too, don't they?

Indeed. That's the other reason - besides 1. Critical Knockdown (perfect target for eVlad's HoF and Transference), and 2. their minifeat - why I really like them.

[nerdkingdan]

Do you really feel comfortable making those statements with a grand total of 15 games under your belt?

Well I tell you my experience, and my opinions to start an honest discussion. I have read a lot of these forums and I see a pattern, and I ask about said pattern to discuss my findings... The mentioning of IFP with Irusk at the start was to point out a known exception that requires a specific build of merc solos and caster.


At some point Khador's preference for lots infantry with few jacks gets old if it boils down to the same infantry and the same jacks swap caster. So now we got Irusk with IFP, butcher with doom reavers. And IFU a potential swap... What else we got? Cause it really does seem like my findings are correct.

[The Buoyancy of Water]

You will do a lot better taking models/units that you want to run and practising with them a lot than if you take Jamie P's lists as they are and running them with no real understanding of why he choose what he did.

Make your own lists, try them, see what you feel is lacking. Then start again and add something you like that will shore up the lists weakness. Then work out your lists most frequent win conditions and try to build on those.

Cheers,
Dave

[scout's honor]

So now we got Irusk with IFP, butcher with doom reavers.

IFP are pretty good with Irusk because they're pretty good period. Relatively speaking Irusk likes accurate models more than hard-hitting ones though, since he can buff their damage output per attack quite handily. The only real reason why you'll see more IFP played (and why they showed up in larger numbers in Jamie's lists, I'm sure) in CR is that they have a UA with FA: 2, which is unique so far, and make excellent reinforcements in part because of that.

That aside, "same infantry swap caster" is a bit too easy. WGI, Kayazy, Nyss, IFP and Doom Reavers are all used fairly commonly - some more than others, but none of these are uncommon. That's five different units already, four of them in-faction. Sure, we have just as many others that are less commonly used but three of those are variations of Man-o-Wars who all suffer from similar issues: lots of points for few models, which in combination with their SPD means they lack sufficient impact on the game more often than not. Moreover, we're hardly in a worse situation than other factions in this regard. Every faction has units that are used very often, others that are practically never used and a couple somewhere in the middle.

[profparm]

This may be a bit of a derail, but I almost never get mine to work for me. They either die to shooting on their advance, don't make it to combat at all (they chill behind while others win the day), or miss all their attack rolls on Deathjack. I've also kept track of my tough rolls: I've made 1 tough roll for them in 15. Not exactly the resilient heroes the lore speaks of, in my experience.

I think I make over half my tough rolls with the Great Bears, always while they still have steady. But then again, my dice love my Bears more than any other unit I have.

Back on topic, I think IFP also have an extremely solid ability to charge and then TAKE a charge with their mini-feat allowing them to reposition and shield wall the same turn they charge (on normal UA anyway, I don't know the restrictions on using the Black Dragon UA).

Also, if you're worried about the games always being the same with playing the same units, jacks, and solos and just swapping casters, why not try changing your lists. One of my most successful experiments has been an Old Witch list with no "core" unit (except maybe Great Bears) that I play around with mobility and lack of targets against my opponent's stuff, using her spell list and feat to control the board while I get my few models where I really want them. If you don't want to play a list with Kayazy, WGIDS, Behemoth, and filler, then try playing a list with IFP, IFU, Spriggan, and different filler. Besides, from what I've noticed, lists seem to be much more successful and play a lot better if you start with the warcaster and then fill in the rest of the list from there, building it around his personal strengths.

[@Kriegsspiele]

I think I make over half my tough rolls with the Great Bears, always while they still have steady. But then again, my dice love my Bears more than any other unit I have.

I see! So you're the guy who steals the toughs of my Great Bears!

Also, if you're worried about the games always being the same with playing the same units, jacks, and solos and just swapping casters, why not try changing your lists. ... Besides, from what I've noticed, lists seem to be much more successful and play a lot better if you start with the warcaster and then fill in the rest of the list from there, building it around his personal strengths.

Amen. And you should put your personal strengths and style in the building game as well; e.g. questions about time vs. a death clock, experiences with specific casters, units, combinations, and not to forget about the fun while playing...

All those "commonly used" (copied?) lists, units, solos, jacks could indeed become boring (and sometimes they are). But they are not necessary at all and I'm not afraid about some kind of "general narrowing": Warmachine and Hordes offers so unbelievably vast options of list building you won't face exactly the same lists too often. And don't forget the continuous stream of new models which is evolving the game anyway: Will we see our beloved Kayazy in 6 or 12 months from now as often as today? I don't think so. And each small or big change we make is going to impact how others build their lists - forcing us to rethink ours just once again... This is an evolutionary process. Otherwise we wouldn't play this game, would we?

[Revamp]

Clearly you need a eIrusk list using Max Assault Kommandos + 3 WA and Max Kayazy+UA with Widowmakers. If you haven't tried it, think about this: AK's and their WA's will get some brutal damage under Battle Lust. I personally killed the Kraken with them two days ago in just such a list with a full unit assault and battery. and before you say "But it took the whole unit", colossals are supposed to take the whole unit to do so.

[Jamie P]

Well I tell you my experience, and my opinions to start an honest discussion. I have read a lot of these forums and I see a pattern, and I ask about said pattern to discuss my findings... The mentioning of IFP with Irusk at the start was to point out a known exception that requires a specific build of merc solos and caster.


At some point Khador's preference for lots infantry with few jacks gets old if it boils down to the same infantry and the same jacks swap caster. So now we got Irusk with IFP, butcher with doom reavers. And IFU a potential swap... What else we got? Cause it really does seem like my findings are correct.

No offence buddy, but after 15 games you don't really have any idea what you're talking about.

If you want a unit to work find your own way of making it work don't come on here and complain that you don't like what tournament winners use. I use what works for me, what works for you?

[Dacian]

One of my favourite lists was running the old witch with IFU as the "core" unit, you just have to play around with a few options, think outside the box. Sure nyss, wgds, kayazy are awesome, but you also have to expect that everyone knows this as well and aoe's will be coming down range, give them something they are not going to expect, make a sweet list PRACTICE it, and who knows it might turn into your 'go to' list.
My 2c

[Murkhadh]

IFP Nyss and winterguard are amazing units, I don't look at it as a bad thing that those are in most lists. I see it as "Khador has some really amazing units that are so good they can be in most lists" thats not a bad thing in my eyes.

[nerdkingdan]

No offence buddy, but after 15 games you don't really have any idea what you're talking about.

If you want a unit to work find your own way of making it work don't come on here and complain that you don't like what tournament winners use. I use what works for me, what works for you?

I started this with saying its not a complaint and in all fairness much of my observation comes from a series of posts by you trying to find a third option after character restrictoins went in, yes i have read that much of these forums, I am doing that same thing, looking for more option. You settled on Irusk with pikemen, my question is that it? No complaints no whining, just an observation and a question.

One frustration I experience in list building is the core units being character based. You have found 3 separate character based core units and win tournaments with them... The question again is what other core infantry set ups do we have. Because I am hoping for more.

I am not bored of the options, I have not faced everything with everything, I am just trying to get some opinions on something I see. I guess I am kind of offended that all you assume it's a complaint.

I would like to thank those who understood my question and who gave suggestions that's what I was trying to get. Sorry if that was unclear typing on a phone you some times struggle to be clear.

[The Buoyancy of Water]

One frustration I experience in list building is the core units being character based. You have found 3 separate character based core units and win tournaments with them... The question again is what other core infantry set ups do we have.

Kayazy
Iron Fangs
Ulhans
MoW (possibly stretching the core unit bit)

None of these units rely on characters, though ulhans are improved by Markov a lot. Test some things and see what works for you.

Cheers,
Dave

[Jamie P]

I am not bored of the options, I have not faced everything with everything, I am just trying to get some opinions on something I see. I guess I am kind of offended that all you assume it's a complaint.

In that case I apologise. But it did come accross that way at least to me.

There are plenty of other fringe units that nearly make it regularly into competetive lists. Uhlans are certainly one choice. Sadly though our 'mainstay' units are fairly limited to those already mentioned. But then if you look at the mainstay options of other factions they are not much better off. Skorne for example have about the same as us in terms of small based units: Praetorians, Karax, Venetors and Immortals. Cyngar have a well know problem with mainstay units. 3-4 effective mainstay choices is about the norm for a faction really.

[nerdkingdan]

In that case I apologise. But it did come accross that way at least to me.

There are plenty of other fringe units that nearly make it regularly into competetive lists. Uhlans are certainly one choice. Sadly though our 'mainstay' units are fairly limited to those already mentioned. But then if you look at the mainstay options of other factions they are not much better off. Skorne for example have about the same as us in terms of small based units: Praetorians, Karax, Venetors and Immortals. Cyngar have a well know problem with mainstay units. 3-4 effective mainstay choices is about the norm for a faction really.

No problem really, I can see how it could be taken as complaining, I've seen enough of those OMG KHADOR SUXXORZ threads. I didn't mean it as that, I was trying to figure out if I missed competitive options we have.

If all the factions only have 3-4 mainstay core setups, their really isn't anything to complain about any way... I just wondered if I had missed one of ours. I mean Chess only has 1 setup, and look at all the strategy options that has :-b

In the end, I'm just trying to make sure I'm on the right track for army preperation and purchasing. It also seems like I want to get 2 factions, rather than every option for 1. Not a complaint again, just a decision based on current evidence.

While we are on the subject seldom used things at tournaments, is there a competative zerkova list floating around? Cause I think she has great fluff, and I like her model. I took her to a tournament and I did win a game.

[scout's honor]

While we are on the subject seldom used things at tournaments, is there a competative zerkova list floating around? Cause I think she has great fluff, and I like her model. I took her to a tournament and I did win a game.

In broad terms, the two more competitive list options for Zerkova seem to be her NQ theme force Hunting Wolves (the one that allows her to take Vanguards) and lists centered around a Konquest.

[quindraco]

In broad terms, the two more competitive list options for Zerkova seem to be her NQ theme force Hunting Wolves (the one that allows her to take Vanguards) and lists centered around a Konquest.

You can actually fit Conquest into Hunting Wolves, although you can't take mechaniks. Once the Colossals book is out properly I'll probably try it out with a proxied Conquest. It's a wonderful tier.

[nerdkingdan]

I took her and that tier to mangled metal by the way with a marauder, vanguard, and decimator... Jacks no one uses, caster no one uses... And even though i did win one, and was 1 roll off of winning 2, I can see why some things just get shelved

Though I still hope it's my skill level and that some of these things I bought can murder face!!!

More to the point though that army lacks any of the core units though?

[scout's honor]

More to the point though that army lacks any of the core units though?

Not really. It increases the FA for non-character Kayazy units and unit attachments, which is pretty nice even with a caster that doesn't have IF (yet has Banishing Ward!).

[nerdkingdan]

So kayazy times 2 instead of kayazy plus other, lol I guess that counts as another option.

Except she takes up Gorman, and that weakens a good old witch list... Guess its still another option even if it's either or.

[mcdermott]

IFP hit, on average about as hard as most other factions weaponmasters/flank having units. (banes excluded) The black dragon UA giving them precision strike makes them a legitimate threat to warbeasts and warjacks as well.

[squee]

Battle Mechaniks are my core unit. They fix stuff, they beat infantry to death. What more can I possibly need?

[nerdkingdan]

Battle Mechaniks are my core unit. They fix stuff, they beat infantry to death. What more can I possibly need?

Lol. I have had no luck with them myself. I plan to try them again, one idea I had was jack marshalling a marauder. They won one game for me by being bodies to eat a charge... But it was not ideal.