If you had to win by scenario?

[Taslon]

So id like to explain a tourney that's coming up. Firstly though, I will be re-posting this in the Legion, Circle, and Khador faction boards, Im pretty decently good with all three, and I wanna hear more than just one opinion. What do you think we do in a tournament, thats guaranteed to come down to Scenario points as the tie breaker, and that there will be 3-4 people tied for first place, so tie breakers are the victory condition. What warlocks do you think we have that excel at scenario so well that that is there only goal in life. I know we have some casters who like to assassinate, but who do you think our central scenario casters are. As I said, it will come down to scenario points as the first tie break, with destruction points as second, so which caster do you think we will have that excel in a environment where its not your win/loss but how many scenario points you score that determines the top 3. So any caster Ideas/ list ideas would be helpful. Im not trying to netdeck here, I'm just looking for some inspiration. There will be quite a few Stormwalls in the running, and none of the July 9th releases will be available, as the tournament will be before then. Your thoughts My fellow Commanders?

[quindraco]

So id like to explain a tourney that's coming up. Firstly though, I will be re-posting this in the Legion, Circle, and Khador faction boards, Im pretty decently good with all three, and I wanna hear more than just one opinion. What do you think we do in a tournament, thats guaranteed to come down to Scenario points as the tie breaker, and that there will be 3-4 people tied for first place, so tie breakers are the victory condition. What warlocks do you think we have that excel at scenario so well that that is there only goal in life. I know we have some casters who like to assassinate, but who do you think our central scenario casters are. As I said, it will come down to scenario points as the first tie break, with destruction points as second, so which caster do you think we will have that excel in a environment where its not your win/loss but how many scenario points you score that determines the top 3. So any caster Ideas/ list ideas would be helpful. Im not trying to netdeck here, I'm just looking for some inspiration. There will be quite a few Stormwalls in the running, and none of the July 9th releases will be available, as the tournament will be before then. Your thoughts My fellow Commanders?

The grammar in this post was a little rough, so I'd like to recap what you're asking, to make sure I understand. You're asking which Khador warcaster would be best in a format which determines the winner by number of control points accrued, correct? But caster kill still ends the game?

In such a format, you do NOT want to assassinate early - indeed, winning too quickly is worth 0 points. You want to get to the objective/zone as quickly as possible, ideally beginning scoring as soon as scoring begins, then successfully continue to score points as long as possible (never going for caster kill, since it's always better to score another point than win this turn). For my money, the clear winner here is the Old Witch. As the fastest model in Khador, she can get to an objective super quickly, and she has a variety of defensive abilities for keeping herself and/or her army alive, along with a pseudospeed buff in that she can grant pathfinder.

[kenc]

I see no need to have insulted his grammar, quindraco, when your own is not exactly immaculate.

Regardless, I haven't been playing for too long (about 2 months now,) but I have been able to play in two 35 point steamrollers so far. I noticed Menoth was able to nearly table me while I was focusing on objectives every time when I was running pSorscha. I was hoping to feat, take x obj, sacrifice, etc that didn't work though. I'm going to be doing a 50pt soon (pre Colossal) I'm thinking about eButcher, eVlad, or Harkevich this time. They're not really assassination Casters (eButcher's feat may be classified as such) and I feel all three give more control than pSorscha with her spells.

I'm assuming, being that there will be Stormwalls, it's a 50pt tournament. This is the list I've been working on for 50 points (pouring way too much money into Warmachine already xD, thankfully I sold my 40k)


Hark
-Behe (a must if you're going against Stormwalls, AP shots)
-BI
A&H
Wulfe
Reinholdt
Demo Corps max
MoW Kovnik
WGDS + Joe

This list gives you a lot of field control. You may even chose to drop A&G and Wulfe for 2 mortar crew. Shoot I've even been thinking about Harkys theme (+1 to starting roll trying to guarantee first is nice, and starting off with fortune on your Mortars for free? mmmm)

All in all Khador, as with most armies, rely on heavy control I feel for scenario win (as I'm sure you know.) So things like suppression fire, broadside for a ridiculous amount of AoEs to drop on people (even though it's Khadorian and not THAT scary, it's still very bothersome and like Khador, has strength in numbers) or just out lasting can help with securing those objs.

[Steamwitch]

Im not going into the grammar thing as im forgen, but we should stop here about that, no need just pass it over. I like harkivitch for the same reasons quadraco likes the witch. Harks pathfinder and escort and his feat make him a good contender imo. Broadsides would see a bit more use to discourage someone running a model in to contest and we have clam jacks and mow shock troopers, they are slow but i do find they can camp an objective pretty well. But Eirusk is really needed to glaze over that speed issue. However pirusks teir is pretty attractive with his spell list and models he can get in it. Ifp can be a pain to remove.

[quindraco]

I see no need to have insulted his grammar, quindraco, when your own is not exactly immaculate.

The point was not to insult him - we have a significant number of posters for whom English is a second language, and there's absolutely no purpose in insulting any of them. However, it DOES make it necessary sometimes to ask for clarification of what they said. All I was doing was explaining myself and making sure I understood.

I welcome constructive criticism of my grammar as well, with the understanding that this is a forum, so vernacular grammar is acceptable - it's ok to begin a sentence with "and" or "but", for example. I'm always looking to better my ability to communicate with others.

[scout's honor]

Tiebreakers are silly to begin with. Tiebreakers that reward you for playing against a lesser opponent are damn silly. I just had to put that out there (just my opinion, of course).

That said, quindraco's definitely correct: the Old Witch is Khador's scenario caster par excellence. You'll want to make sure the list can generate enough power though, since Zevanna can buff neither accuracy nor damage. Harkevich can put up a very impressive defensive block and move it in place fast under most circumstances, but will have some hard matchups in the likes of pDenny or eHaley because of his low model count: having to play for scenario will play to their strengths, not yours, and I'm fairly sure you'll see them make an appearance in this format. If the Old Witch is not your cup of tea either Irusk should be able to make a good showing, although these games will likely turn into grinding your opponent down until he can't contest anymore and then grabbing scenario points.

And since I can't help piping up, English being my second language: there's nothing in quindraco's post that suggests an insult to me, but posters only taking a rudimentary effort to post in a clear and understandable manner actually is something that (mildly) offends me. I'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but let's be fair - if you want me to take the time to read, understand and respond to your posts it shouldn't be too much effort to take the time to post in an understandable manner. I'll refrain from pointing fingers, those for who the shoe fits should know who they are.

[OMM_Lukav]

Although I have yet to be able to try it (new baby tieing up all my time) I think Old Witch + Conquest will be a excellent combo for scenario play due to their board control abilities. What I mean is Old Witch with Murder of Crows along with Conquest being able to Creeping Barrage (or hell just park in a zone and camp it).

[Taslon]

Tiebreakers are silly to begin with. Tiebreakers that reward you for playing against a lesser opponent are damn silly. I just had to put that out there (just my opinion, of course).

That said, quindraco's definitely correct: the Old Witch is Khador's scenario caster par excellence. You'll want to make sure the list can generate enough power though, since Zevanna can buff neither accuracy nor damage. Harkevich can put up a very impressive defensive block and move it in place fast under most circumstances, but will have some hard matchups in the likes of pDenny or eHaley because of his low model count: having to play for scenario will play to their strengths, not yours, and I'm fairly sure you'll see them make an appearance in this format. If the Old Witch is not your cup of tea either Irusk should be able to make a good showing, although these games will likely turn into grinding your opponent down until he can't contest anymore and then grabbing scenario points.

And since I can't help piping up, English being my second language: there's nothing in quindraco's post that suggests an insult to me, but posters only taking a rudimentary effort to post in a clear and understandable manner actually is something that (mildly) offends me. I'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but let's be fair - if you want me to take the time to read, understand and respond to your posts it shouldn't be too much effort to take the time to post in an understandable manner. I'll refrain from pointing fingers, those for who the shoe fits should know who they are.

For one this is a message board, not a English class. If my writing is not up to par with what your accepted level is, feel free to skip over it. I typed this quickly on my Iphone during my 15 minute break. Ridiculing others because they did not type something out perfectly in a casual setting is the same thing as mocking someone. I have no desire to go through and growl at people at there lack of grammatical perfection, nor there lack of exceptional vocabulary. My sentence structure was poor, but as it was written in haste, I was doing what I could. Your conjecture is elitist in nature, and easily can be seen as if people with less skill with grammar are beneath what you should feel you should have to read. Feel free to put me on ignore Sir, as I do not like people looking down there nose at me. Nothing in my post was illegible, though it was poorly written, save I forgot to be clear about 35points, and that there was a limit of 4 rounds, with 32 players. So in that there will be four players with undefeated records at the end, so the first Tie break being scenario points will decide tournament victor.

The Old Witch angle is very tempting, and is a solid caster. I have no playtime experience with her though, and the tournament is this weekend so I feel she may not be the best, as looking at her spell card she seems to be a skill driven caster. Harkevich is on my radar, I didn't think of him as a Scenario caster, but I had been focusing on broadsides with him. What about Esorcha, would she work in an aggressive attrition sort of way? Kill off as much as the army as possible, so they cant stop you from getting scenario points?

[Binz]

The Old Witch angle is very tempting, and is a solid caster. I have no playtime experience with her though, and the tournament is this weekend so I feel she may not be the best, as looking at her spell card she seems to be a skill driven caster. Harkevich is on my radar, I didn't think of him as a Scenario caster, but I had been focusing on broadsides with him. What about Esorcha, would she work in an aggressive attrition sort of way? Kill off as much as the army as possible, so they cant stop you from getting scenario points?

I concur with people suggesting the Old Witch, she is close as you can get to a "proper" cryx style objective list. You will no doubt be facing the many really good scenario casters, and the problem will be that unless you have a way to counter an enemy objective based feat, for example eDenny and Harbinger, not to mention opposing Old Witchs and eHaleys, you will face the prospect of auto-losing on scenario.

eSorcha has attrition on her side, but she cant stop eDenny for example popping feat and winning on scenario. Where as Old Witch at least has a chance of popping her feat in response, and forcing the Cryx player to only move their warjacks and other models that will survive the POW14 in order to contest/control zones, meaning if your lucky you wont auto-lose.

[Ender_Melchior]

A solid number two choice for Scenario wins: Zerkova. Her toolbox of abilities should never be discounted. Force Blast to help clear away enemy models contesting zones is huge. Her Feat of "Zerkova, may I? No!" Will be a huge assist, as well.

[Tossy]

Old Witch, pButcher and pIrusk are top tier attrition casters in any faction, If you want to win by scenerio I would go any of those 3 and ride it out

[Binz]

Old Witch, pButcher and pIrusk are top tier attrition casters in any faction, If you want to win by scenerio I would go any of those 3 and ride it out

With the exception of pIrusk, all your really doing is hoping that Iron Flesh wins the attrition battle arent you?

Even old Witch wont protect you from a shooty army with a scenario feat, eg eHaley gunline.

Also, Iron Flesh is much less useful now than it was a year ago, given the anti-infantry tech that just about everything, including Stormwalls have gained.

Scenario's tend to reward the armies that can reach the zone quickly, and once they get there are immune/resistant to most things the enemy can throw at you.

[Steamwitch]

On the hark angle i think feating into an opponent who got to the zone first would be ideal. Meaning you "let" them get there first and feat free charges and broadsides into the zone pumping 6 shots (assumeing ivan, destroyer) into a zone and chargeing into melee and haveing arm 23 would really damage anything in/near the zone. Not to mention what ever else you have running around grey lords are a personal hark favoret with koldune for power booster and clouds with blizzard cover camping objectives is sweet! Dont forget ivans bulldoze to bully contesting units out of the way. I really like gorman too just cause he is awsome and adds more cover hark with escort can dish out 2 more focus a turn if hes got a body guard like a stock destroyer with him. Ivan should be bulldoseing and dodgeing in a greylord or gorman cloud and even if you get there first harks feat is good problem is he is reactive in his playstyle. Meaning you gotta take it on the chin/wait for an opponents play.

[OMM_Lukav]

With the exception of pIrusk, all your really doing is hoping that Iron Flesh wins the attrition battle arent you?

Even old Witch wont protect you from a shooty army with a scenario feat, eg eHaley gunline.

Also, Iron Flesh is much less useful now than it was a year ago, given the anti-infantry tech that just about everything, including Stormwalls have gained.

Scenario's tend to reward the armies that can reach the zone quickly, and once they get there are immune/resistant to most things the enemy can throw at you.

Old Witch is more about board denial than iron flesh. She dictates the game and makes your opponent pay for going after objectives.

[comrade]

Hark, Old witch, and pIrusk come to mind as natural picks, but I think you would almost be better served by expanding this discussion to whole lists. Using the gun carriage and the rifle corps will also give lots of board control. You may have seen my post regarding my recent tourney win with eSorscha. I won by scenario every round that I won, I ended the tournament with 7 control points after 4 rounds.

[Tossy]

With the exception of pIrusk, all your really doing is hoping that Iron Flesh wins the attrition battle arent you?

Even old Witch wont protect you from a shooty army with a scenario feat, eg eHaley gunline.

Also, Iron Flesh is much less useful now than it was a year ago, given the anti-infantry tech that just about everything, including Stormwalls have gained.

Scenario's tend to reward the armies that can reach the zone quickly, and once they get there are immune/resistant to most things the enemy can throw at you.

Ummm, no. You are aware that most of our casters have Iron Flesh right thus hard to avoid when selecting casters? Plus it is still one of the best spells in the game.

pButcher because he is a tanky caster who runs my favorite attrition piece well (the devastator)

Old Witch because she plays a scenerio denial game as good as anyone else. Nyss hunters grab the zone quickly and can shoot the lights out. Gallows and AoS help clear zones full of infantry...

pIrusk, because a 4+ tough no KD bubble will make you out live your opponent enough to get rid of their zone takers and sit there yourself. + Inhospitable ground is awesome

You are aware that in a 2 list tournament you can choose which caster you put out against certain lists...

[Steamwitch]

Iron flesh is helpfull any way you slice it. Ya hard counters exist. But building a list around one buff spell is foolish in itself. You dont just eat the iceing off the cake, you enjoy its layers of moist delicusness while admireing its teture and under-flavors. Or you can just be a pig and hork it down and get indegestion later. Butcher I like for murdering a zone you want but his whole army is super slow so you would need some shooting or some fast units to discorage a land grab from your opponents AD stuff, not hard with man hunters, assassins, and eleminators. But i like the idea of a hard core Eirusk list with MoW as my iceing, gun carrage as my cake, and mechanics everywhere with UA. That could be one mean fort ploped on a controll point.

[The Buoyancy of Water]

I'd say: eIrusk, Zerkova, Old Witch and Harkevich are our top scenario casters. Anyone who can effect the enemies ability to reach the objectives are very good.

Cheers,
Dave

[scout's honor]

Feel free to put me on ignore Sir, as I do not like people looking down there nose at me. Nothing in my post was illegible, though it was poorly written, save I forgot to be clear about 35points, and that there was a limit of 4 rounds, with 32 players.

A bit touchy today, are we? As I said, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt and I didn't point any fingers. No need to get defensive about it, just like there was no need for anyone to read anything into quindraco's posts that isn't there.

Ummm, no. You are aware that most of our casters have Iron Flesh right thus hard to avoid when selecting casters? Plus it is still one of the best spells in the game.

Four out of fourteen is not "most of our casters".

That said, IF indeed still is one of the best spells in the game: you just shouldn't rely just on that. Nowadays chances are you're going to get countered hard at least once at an event if you bring nothing but high DEF negligible ARM infantry, but if you bring some you'll likely still give one or two opponents a hard time with them.

Outside the Old Witch (and to an extent Zerkova) attrition will most likely be the way to go for scenario victories, but even so you should be better off with attrition casters that don't have to go out of their way too much to prevent a scenario loss while they attrition away. Both Irusks are IMO decidedly better than the Butcher in that regard.

[John of Arc]

Zerkova with Conquest and a Demolisher or Spriggan would be my pick. Force Blast on has a huge footprint on Conquest, who can't be pushed out in return. On a clamjack, you have a smaller base that can push things further. Her feat prevents running and charging to help stop people from getting on the objectives, as well as aiding in the attrition battle. Banishing Ward is also really helpful against some of the other typical scenario casters you're likely to face, like eHaley and Rahn.

[SuperTheBoss]

In addition to the casters that have been mentioned, pIrusk and Old Witch being my favorites but they're all solid picks, I want to mention a few other models that help with scenarios. Some of these aren't often used, but in the case you're talking about where you're avoiding caster-kill I think they become a little more viable, and of course some of them are great anyway. First, WGRC. This one is kind of obvious, one full unit drops a 5" template and 2 min units drop 2 3" templates if I'm not mistaken. Good for board control against infantry. If you use them with old witch on feat turn and cast murder of crows you have a lot of area of infantry that is screwed any way you cut it. With other casters you can run IFP or Kayazy into melee with a unit and then put a template on top of them and they either have to take auto damage from the template or risk free strikes. The Devestator has already been mentioned, but is great for scenario play because of its ability to park on an objective and just sit there at ARM 25. The marauder is good because it can choose angles to slam from, which allows knocking stuff like closed devestators off objectives that much easier. Kossite woodsman are actually good in some scenarios if the objectives are near the edges of the map. For example, that one where there are 3 flags and one disappears. I don't remember the name. At least in my experience, some players will often send a squishy solo or something of that sort to run over to an objective to get an easy point if you're out of position to get to it that turn, and the threat of kossites prevents that to some extent. I'll also mention the Drakhun because of its speed and toughness. In the same way that our hypothetical opponent ran a squishy solo to get an easy point, you too can run your drakhun to get an easy point, except it is actually surprisingly difficult to kill, especially if you have the dismount. I actually had a drakhun tie up a Harrower for an entire game once. If I remember correctly it wasn't a super long game, but still, that's pretty cool. Of course there are other helpful models, but I thought I'd mention a few of my favorites as well as some that I didn't think would get mentioned. I think the casters mentioned on here already are pretty comprehensive. Just make sure you have something that can throw their caster if it comes down to it because if you really want to win by scenario it is possible for your opponent to plant their caster in the zone so that you have no option but to deal with their caster before you can win by scenario, and if you don't want to win by caster kill, something that can throw would help with casters who tend to play forward.

Edit: that turned out to be a lot longer than I thought.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

Ridiculing others because they did not type something out perfectly in a casual setting is the same thing as mocking someone.

1) If you found Quin's post to be "ridiculing", you might want to chill out a wee bit. He didn't make any comment about you, he made a critical, and accurate statement about the post, one that you have agree with him. So how can he be ridiculing you if you agree with him?

2) Old Witch, hands down. Being able to unseen path to get her to objectives, and to use her feat and murder of crows to control the table. She was custom built to win scenarios. Toss in Conquest, and it's going to be an incredibly difficult game for anyone trying to get CP's off you.

-Rick

[CHaoTiCTeX]

My favorite scenario casters are as follows:

Old witch - her board control ability is absolutely devastating to an opponent
pIrusk - I simply have a LOT of love of Inhospitable ground, and it has helped me win a lot of games, his feat as well, can potentially cause an opponent to flounder for a turn
Zerkova - she has a fantastic and versatile kit, and can counter mage-casters very well (also Sylas + Reinholdt + razorwind kills casters (and everything else))
eSorsha - in the land of the colossals, she laughs, also, she is great at, and at facilitating wiping your opponents army from the board

i have also had success with an eVlad list, by sheer fact of my units destroy theirs, but wouldnt recommend him as such