Woldwrath Spoiler

[George Spiggott]

Just wondering about the Gargantuan thresher thing and the Woldwrath's knockdown ability.

'Gargantuan thresher power attack' is your initial attacks and doen't use the models melee weapons so doesn't get the knockdown right?

However AFAIK you can make a 'thresher' attack with one arm and a regular attack with the other right? and with Baldur (both) you can make power attacks for free.

So assuming you've been charged by a mass of infantry (but didn't lose/had stones heal) any missing branches.

1: Reposition if required and declare power attack.

2: Boost a regular attack against a model in one arc that gives you the most other models in your other arc under the 4" template.

3: Auto hit lots of other (now knocked down models) with a 'thresher' in the other arc.

4: Profit.

[Charming]

Swipe is a power attack and thus replaces both initials

[lastspartacus]

Seeing the spoilers for this model makes me wonder what we Trollbloods did to deserve PP's ire, and if it's too late to perform oblations to get a recall of the Mountain King, now that we've seen what a true 20-point model looks like in Warmahordes.

The mountain king is the physical mass of displaced negative karma needed to be removed to create Janissa.

[Blaque]

Just wondering about the Gargantuan thresher thing and the Woldwrath's knockdown ability.

'Gargantuan thresher power attack' is your initial attacks and doen't use the models melee weapons so doesn't get the knockdown right?

It doesn't interact whatsoever, as per how power attacks interact with weapons and what was ruled with the Stormwall here:
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...=1#post1468539

However AFAIK you can make a 'thresher' attack with one arm and a regular attack with the other right? and with Baldur (both) you can make power attacks for free.

Why would it be any different than other power attacks? Using a power attack eats all your initial attacks, just like a slam, trample, or headbutt would.

So assuming you've been charged by a mass of infantry (but didn't lose/had stones heal) any missing branches.

1: Reposition if required and declare power attack.

2: Boost a regular attack against a model in one arc that gives you the most other models in your other arc under the 4" template.

3: Auto hit lots of other (now knocked down models) with a 'thresher' in the other arc.

4: Profit.

As noted, power attacks replace all your initials. This is like assuming that a satyr still gets to use its claws if it headbutts or slams. Which, well, it doesn't. You sweep, and then have to punch individually everything else. It's not especially great an infantry-sweeper on its own (though that's what spells llike Hellmouth, Crevasse, or Eruption of Life are for anyhow).

The mountain king is the physical mass of displaced negative karma needed to be removed to create Janissa.

Don't forget the Fennblade UA.

And stuff.

[George Spiggott]

Why would it be any different than other power attacks? Using a power attack eats all your initial attacks, just like a slam, trample, or headbutt would.

Because it gives you two sets of attacks, one for each intact system/arc (for colossals). However it has been established that this tactic doesn't work. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[txiab]

Spoilers aside, do we know when this is coming out? How about the book?

[Mercykiller]

All Colossals and Gargants will be out before the end of the year, as per PP. Book looks like next summer.

[Blaque]

Because it gives you two sets of attacks, one for each intact system/arc (for colossals). However it has been established that this tactic doesn't work. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

This is incorrect, actually. All the two grids are for is damage instances, really. Colossals have normal attacks like everything else in the game, just more restricted ability to where it can distribute some of those attacks, in the same way battle engines do.

Spoilers aside, do we know when this is coming out? How about the book?

As noted, all should be out by year's end. I expect doubling-up on colossal/gargantuan releases for October-December if this is to be the case, but seeing as PP said all of Wrath should be out by June (and we still have a warjack kit without even so much a date) I am skeptical of this goal being met. Then again, Warroom looks like it'll be on time, so maybe they got this act together a bit.

Either way, I expect the Woldwrath in Q4 at some point since it is ready to be previewed and was almost ready to be played at L&L this year.

Book should be out Spring 2013, actually.

And stuff.

[Beckman]

The mountain king is the physical mass of displaced negative karma needed to be removed to create Janissa.

Hah! Too true... Although, I really with they would just change the nature of linear obstacles. They are broken..

Don't forget the Fennblade UA.

And stuff.

I just have to say... while the Fennblade UA is really good, I have been quite impressed with Kriel Warriors recently. The Cabers really a handful to play against when you're playing a speedy high DEF faction. And Steady+Tough is really annoying when your opponent rolls well. They don't even have the common decency to be knocked down.

[joelker41]

I think the MAT issue is kind of solved when that thing's animus makes Druid Force Bolt knockdown way more probable.

Rahn player speaking from experience with Battle Mages LOL.

[vagabondaeon]

I think the MAT issue is kind of solved when that thing's animus makes Druid Force Bolt knockdown way more probable.

Rahn player speaking from experience with Battle Mages LOL.

You'd have to get your warlock up amazingly close to pull that off, but... yeah, I guess it could work.

[joelker41]

You'd have to get your warlock up amazingly close to pull that off, but... yeah, I guess it could work.

What LOL?

Why would the Lock have to be up there? The Woldwrath pops animus on the targets within 10" and the druids just start knocking stuff down.

I mean yeah the Lock would be cool if it was in range but gunlining with Druids (particularly with tiers with two units) seems really good. Magic Ability 7 with 3 dice = you are hitting the WGDS on average LOL.

[PG_Celedor]

Congratulations!!!

gives Mountain King a dirty look

[Palmer_v1]

Accurate shooting and KD are nice, but all the Pow 10s in the world won't matter against high armor lists.

[joelker41]

Accurate shooting and KD are nice, but all the Pow 10s in the world won't matter against high armor lists.

Well it's not like force bolt drags hard targets closer so your heavies/lock/infantry can get to them.

Oh wait....

[Palmer_v1]

How many other heavies are you bringing? Seems like Woldwrath will be taking up the space of two of them, and due to the order of activation issues, can't be the one taking the swings after the druids drag.

[TheNoob]

i am loving the woldwrath.... i think its gonna be awesome except for the Kayas (hello, free boosted Rift spam + feat turn Kromac assassinations )

Most of my lists currently run around 25-30 points of beasts anyways. So ~15 points for the wrath (w lock's beast points) is not bad. Leaves me room for a fury battery (gorax/argus) and another strong beater (feral/stalker)

[niceas]

Book should be out Spring 2013, actually.

And stuff.

So we should expect it in the week of the 7th of July?

I kid, I kid.

[Vicomte Athos]

So we should expect it in the week of the 7th of July?

I kid, I kid.

Stop, you're going to jinx it.

[cryptomancer]

It is hilarious that there's this much rage about Spell Ward. No Parasite? No Harm? My money would already be in the Privateer Press vaults if the King had Spell Ward.

-crypto

[notawarmachine]

It is hilarious that there's this much rage about Spell Ward. No Parasite? No Harm? My money would already be in the Privateer Press vaults if the King had Spell Ward.

An important note here is that Trolls don't have Druids. Druids bring counter magic so there was already not going to be any Parasite or Harm hitting the WoldWrath - hence the frustration with Spell Ward. In addition - Trolls do have multiple non-spell ways of buffing arm (Krielstones and Elemental Communion off the top of my head). Were those same options present in Circle, I doubt there'd be as much griping about spell ward.

The real drawback (balancing factor?) to the WW is that he will be the most difficult of all Colossals/Gargantuans to be repaired/healed. This is because only Warlocks named Baldur can heal him, and Shifting Stones can either heal him or move (so they will be unable to heal the WoldWrath on consecutive turns if it moves more than 1"). This while not being the most durable arm/hit box wise. A lost spiral could easily be a real hindrance more than any other Colossal/Gargantuan's lost spiral/system. Personally, I really hope a "Druid Stonemason" solo that can repair constructs comes with the new book.

That said, I do like him and I shall own him.

[Asdrubael]

It is hilarious that there's this much rage about Spell Ward. No Parasite? No Harm? My money would already be in the Privateer Press vaults if the King had Spell Ward.

-crypto

Offensive debuffs seem largely rooted in Warmachine, and the focus mechanic seems rather unforgiving toward spell casting due to assassination risk. A good friend of mine, and arguably the best player I know, is a Cryx player who plays competitively and holds a great record, and he has outlined numerous times how offensive upkeeps are a huge trap due to the inability of casters to defend themselves, run their jacks, and effective cast spells simultaneously. It's for this reason that spell ward is a situational boon for the Woldwrath. One that is redundant with our best unit, Druids of Orboros, which additionally makes it seem more like a limitation than a positive ability. I really do think spell ward exists more to mitigate our own very strong upkeeps (Roots of the Earth) than they are to prevent opponents from blasting out ARM 20 model with offensive spells and upkeeps. Furthermore, the insane levels of synergy with the Woldwrath's animus and druids means that you'll undoubtedly see them fielded alongside it 90% of the time. This means that 90% of the time, the Woldwrath would be effectively immune to spells anyways. Now, for a troll model, spell ward obviously has more benefit as a result of the krielstone not being a spell and some of your best buffs being animi, which when directly cast by the beast, circumvent spell ward. In fact, spell ward on the King would be quite good (although, no more Wild Agression... and at MAT 5, that kind of hurts).

What surprises me is the fact that there isn't as much attention being paid to the fact that the Woldwrath is so unique compared to other colossals and gargantuans in the fact that it enhances the rest of the army. All the other models, thus far, really are a singular entity. They are a massive piece that acts rather selfishly. They eat focus and churn out direct damage via ranged or melee. None of them truly have abilities that DIRECTLY assist any other model in your army. The closest in the Stormwall, which provides lightning pods to assist triangulation and covering fire templates (the Conquest does as well, but its templates appear more for defending itself than your army). Coincidentally, the Stormwall is, in the court of public opinion, the "best" colossal. The Woldwrath's animus quite literally brings a massive buff directly to other models. Its knockdown fists also largely assist other models. The thing is a multiplier for everything around it. This is not being given the attention it should. Every turn, starting turn 2, this thing essentially unleashes Rahn's feat (only 10" radius). The knockdown potential alone, for druids, is stupid. Factor in Crevasses from Mohsar basically becoming autohits, blacklads suddenly becoming infantry-brooms, and even the stonekeeper having a high-power knockdown AOE and you suddenly see that for 20 points you're not paying exclusively for a beast-in-a-vaccuum model, but rather a model that maximizes the potential of most of your other models. It's for this reason that I am so excited for this model's release. Imagine Morvahna chaining boosted influences, raining death via Eruption of Life, and absorbing soul after soul via Harvest. What was already an infantry-mulching warlock becomes... automatic almost. eKrueger's shenanigans just become dumb as Gallows becomes infinitely more castable and TKs almost auto-hit. And as I said before... druids... wow!

The last point I'd like to emphasize is the melee output, within out faction, is very impressive. It's faster and has better MAT than anticipated (by me at least). Speed 5, with reach, and with access to numerous speed buffs (fortunately very few are stymied by spell ward) means this thing can get where you need it. Once there, it drops an auto-knockdown hammer with 6 (presuming free charge) POW 19s. Can warpwolves do more? Yes, but not by a lot and not with the accuracy (assuming your foe is not immune to knockdown). A primaled Stalker gets 5 (once again, assuming a free charge) PS 20 swords attacks and one PS 18 claw. It swings at MAT 8. The damage is essentially identical to that of the Woldwrath. Before Ghetorix, this was our best heavy-removing warbeast. So, in addition to amazing support and great damage boxes and armor, we get the equivalent, if not superior, damage output of our second-deadliest warbeast.

I've got to say, this model represents, in my opinion, a very exciting shift in our own meta. I really do see our already amazing eKrueger tier list suddenly being a front runner for one of the hardest lists in Hordes. I see eBaldur and pBaldur's value growing exponentially. Hell, Mohsar, who I personally haven't run frequently, looks down-right terrifying with this guy. Without a doubt, I'll be purchasing a Woldwrath. I would argue it's the second best colossal/gargantuan in the game (from what we've seen thus far).

[joelker41]

But you can use the Winter Argus Animu.......*gets slapped down with a large and blunt object*

[kaneblaise]

An important note here is that Trolls don't have Druids. Druids bring counter magic so there was already not going to be any Parasite or Harm hitting the WoldWrath - hence the frustration with Spell Ward. In addition - Trolls do have multiple non-spell ways of buffing arm (Krielstones and Elemental Communion off the top of my head). Were those same options present in Circle, I doubt there'd be as much griping about spell ward.

I really don't understand why people don't understand this. Especially with that animus, Druids are going to be in almost every list with this guy.

a lot of good points

The fact that we get the (so far) only buffing model is something to consider and how you laid everything out did make me a bit more excited about the Woldwrath (which I was already looking forward to). I hope we see another caster with Elemental Mastery, personally.

I still think we're going to still be surprised about how this guy changes Circle in a year or so. Until then I will say he's good, but not broken good (as much of Circle is).

[Asdrubael]

Personally, I really hope a "Druid Stonemason" solo that can repair constructs comes with the new book.

I really agree. I think a model akin to the arcanist, but exclusive to stones would be awesome. It'd be really neat if it had some way of boosting their damage output and healing them. Hopefully, it'd also have an ability akin to iron sentinel (I think that's the name) where the model gets an ARM boost for being in btb with a model of a certain type. Dawlord Scyirs have it. Finally, I'd hope that it was a blackclad so that we could incorporate it into eKrueger, eBaldur, and pBaldur's tiers.

[PG_cheddercaveman]

I really agree. I think a model akin to the arcanist, but exclusive to stones would be awesome. It'd be really neat if it had some way of boosting their damage output and healing them. Hopefully, it'd also have an ability akin to iron sentinel (I think that's the name) where the model gets an ARM boost for being in btb with a model of a certain type. Dawlord Scyirs have it. Finally, I'd hope that it was a blackclad so that we could incorporate it into eKrueger, eBaldur, and pBaldur's tiers.

As much as I find this to be a neat proposition, the problem is any of these things would be a Magic Ability which would still do no good with the Woldwrath. I'm more interested to see a 3-man unit of Druids or a 10/6-man unit that has something unique going on.

[Ruan]

I'm going to be trying a Wake of Destruction eKrueger list tomorrow with the Woldwrath in it, at minimum. I may also try Mohsar depending on how long first game takes/if I can get a second game in. I'll give my thoughts as to how everything turned out. I think I've had enough of the spec - I want to see what it can do in action.

[Blaque]

I think thinking you take it just to buff Druids will lead to lopsided lists myself. Things like Blackclads, or casters with awesome spells and Gallows Groves are going to be more generally useful than just going all-in on Druids.

Baldur2, Cassius, Mohsar, and Morvahna, for instnace, I think do just fine not bothering with Druids before, and I don't see a need to get further with them now, since those warlocks are failry heavy on spell-slinging and a warbeast that effectively pays ahead for their boosts seems sweet as is.

And stuff.

[notawarmachine]

But you can use the Winter Argus Animu.......*gets slapped down with a large and blunt object*

Lol, this made me laugh... and then I cried.

[PG_fildrigar]

What LOL?

Why would the Lock have to be up there? The Woldwrath pops animus on the targets within 10" and the druids just start knocking stuff down.

I mean yeah the Lock would be cool if it was in range but gunlining with Druids (particularly with tiers with two units) seems really good. Magic Ability 7 with 3 dice = you are hitting the WGDS on average LOL.

What LOL, indeed. If the Wrath has popped it's Animus to give the Druids boosted attacks, then it has already activated, and won't be swinging it's powerful fists at an already knocked down model. The post you quoted was in response to a previous quote about the Wrath's MAT issues being solved by Druids knocking down the target models, which would require your Warlock to have cast the Animus.

[lastspartacus]

What am I missing, can the winter argus animus not give the fellow arm22?

And does the thresher attack kd every model hit?

This fellow is very impressive to me. Further cements, no pun intended, my desire to go circle when i go hordes.

[PG_LEJKaya]

What am I missing, can the winter argus animus not give the fellow arm22?

The animus is Range: Self so it can only be cast on the Argus itself or on the warlock if he casts it.

And does the thresher attack kd every model hit?

The thresher type power attack does not use the weapon so does not get those weapon qualities, same as if megalith headbuts, they don't also suffer weight of stone.


I think Baldur2 is the biggest winner here. The ability to buff the Woldwraths ARM and Baldurs virtually pointless offensive spell without this animus means he makes best use of it.

Krueger 2 is also liking this and will see good use, even in WoD.

[notawarmachine]

What am I missing, can the winter argus animus not give the fellow arm22?

And does the thresher attack kd every model hit?

This fellow is very impressive to me. Further cements, no pun intended, my desire to go circle when i go hordes.

Well, yes you are missing both those things lol. The Winter Argus has an animus with Range: Self, and special weapon qualities don't translate to power attacks (no knockdown for woldwrath, no e leaps for stormwall etc).

The winter argus does truly baffle me - every other faction has access to an animus that can buff arm directly and also have warlocks with +arm spells (with the exception of trolls I think? - but they have the krielstone which is better in many situations than a spell), but for circle it was evidently seen as too powerful? I don't pretend to understand the reasoning there. Even if the animus were spammable, its not like paying 5 points for +2 arm on 2 or 3 models is over the top imo (obviously game designers/play testers did not agree with me).


*LEJ_Kaya was quicker

[lastspartacus]

Ah, range self. Didn't know that special weapon qualities didn't transfer to special attacks. Did that get ruled somewhere or is it in the book? I remember everyone was going on about a thresher+eleap from stormwall for awhile.

[notawarmachine]

misread above post

[Ruan]

Alright, got a game in with it.

Thoughts (with the caveat that this is my opinion based off of one game and may yet change):

1) Needs to be run mid->front line as an anchor to your force. Ideally, your force is on either its right side or its left side, but NOT in front of it unless a unit is there to tarpit.
2) Don't run the druids as a tarpit in front of it. You want to keep them alive. You need another unit for this. Stick your druids right next to it on either side of it, and force bolt accordingly.
3) If you are using it to buff druid fishing, you need a heavy killer there to kill what you are fishing. You can't use the Woldwrath, because it has used its' animus and taken a potshot at something (likely what you're fishing at). At minimum a Woldguardian, a Warpwolf, or a unit capable of doing a lot of damage to a heavy is needed.
4) Keep your Blackclad(s) hanging around the Woldwrath for infantry clearing purposes.
5) If you're going to send it in melee, either clear the way first or understand that any friendly in the area is going to be knocked down, barring Solid Ground or Steady.

From what I'm seeing, a list using a Woldwrath needs:

a) Tarpit, if you plan to use its' animus. You have to have the Woldwrath up a bit to make use of its animus. If it takes a charge from, say, a unit of weaponmasters, it is going down hard. You need an infantry screen. If you are using druids, you do not want them Vortex tarpitting unless you have two units - one tarpit, one fishing.

b) A heavy killer aside from the Woldwrath. Either a Woldguardian, a Warpwolf of some flavor, or a unit capable of taking down a decent ARM (18+) heavy. Geomancy may be a bit of a trap with most casters barring those capable of buffing damage from Megalith or a Woldwarden.

c) Take a unit of UA'd Shifting Stones and try to keep one Stone next to it for a Healing Field - pivot the unit around that Stone if you have to, but if you're running anyone but the Baldurs, you're likely going to need it, especially if you're using the Woldwrath as any sort of transfer target. Hope your opponent doesn't roll 1/2 - mind goes away quickly compared to the other branches.

---

Going to get in another game next week, but that's some initial impressions from this week.

[Tigerlily]

What LOL, indeed. If the Wrath has popped it's Animus to give the Druids boosted attacks, then it has already activated, and won't be swinging it's powerful fists at an already knocked down model. The post you quoted was in response to a previous quote about the Wrath's MAT issues being solved by Druids knocking down the target models, which would require your Warlock to have cast the Animus.

Depending on how forward you are playing your caster, your caster can use his animus, then druids can knock stuff down, then the WW can activate. 10" is pretty far, even if your caster is back.

[Vicomte Athos]

Does the change to electro leap have bearing on the woldwraths gun? Does this mean we can boos the damage roll from the jump attack?

[Mercykiller]

What change to electro-leap?

[vagabondaeon]

Does the change to electro leap have bearing on the woldwraths gun? Does this mean we can boos the damage roll from the jump attack?

According to the wording of the gun's ability, the "leap" is unboostable.

What change to electro-leap?

Electro Leap is considered to be a damage roll originating from the model that arc'd it - the short answer is that Lightning Tendrils' Electro Leap on Bloodtrackers or Wolf Riders is POW 12 against their Prey targets.

To wit: http://privateerpressforums.com/show...nd-Electroleap