I'll splash in Wold Guardians or Woldwyrds depending on the list. Grayle I find actually doesn't mind the Woldwyrd, it is a good extra fury source and the gun is nice and I have 5pts to take it with a lot. Wold Guardians do very well I think with Morvahna and Kromac due to being good with an ARM buff, and in Kromac's case, he loves the animus to keep his 40mm base *** alive.
I agree that the animus a lot harder to use in practice. I don't think the 10 inch range is a total show stopper though since Druids can harpoon. And all it takes is one crit knockdown and it heads south really quick for a enemy warnoun. Even if you never use the animus, the threat you have with Druids ad it is huge.
I think the fact that the spirals are so very skewed means it could be very easy to take out say, mind.
Now for Baldur that's not an issue but its quite easy to take out any stones within 1" of the Woldwrath, they are pretty fragile and its worth it so the total lack of healing for the Woldwrath can make it just a bit pointless for just a while.
Now its not much less likely to lose the spirit on it... that's now a real problem.
This would be easily solved by a stone path druid solo who can either heal constructs or allow constructs to be healed.
Is it a deal breaker? Well, you do have to get through that ARM 20 (Or more with buff) and you do still have to do a lot of damage to a single aspect.
I don't think it hurts the survivability overall, but it does become an issue with losing single aspects.
As a side note, eBaldur has a bad time healing it anyway, due to OOA issues (If he feats, it may as well not have been healed because now it can't move, if you need it to move then get the ARM buff then he can't heal it because he has to feat that turn...)
Actually eKrueger has an easier time healing it with TK.
Note that in all of the games I've fielded with it... Mind has been very, very easy for opponents to take out. That said, as I noted before... just so long as it has Spirit and Body, you're fine due to the special rules - generally you're sending in the big ranged attack at an easier to hit target, so you boost up to 2d6. In melee, Earthshaker means you only have to make sure you hit once (so long as there's no Covenant or whatnot around), then can buy attacks.
I don't think you quite follow me. The Druids can harpoon but that requires them to be within 10" of their target. Likewise the Megalith must be within range of the targets to help too. What I'm suggesting is that when opponents see this list they have a very obvious and simple equation to pull it apart. Destroy the Woldwrath or destroy the Druids. Neither is particularly hard for a determined opponent. Moreover, most of our opponents will be able to do it in detail before we get into range. Depending on the size of the game, the investment in a Woldwrath, Druids, and the almost mandatory Shifting Stone unit JUST to service the Woldwrath is huge. In a 50pt game, for example, more than half your points are tied up into what is essentially a one trick pony that you must manage to get into proper position under fire the entire way. You are doing this all under the harsh light of day. Your opponent knows EXACTLY what you have to do and intend to do. What is more, your opponent can clearly see what must be done to stop it.I agree that the animus a lot harder to use in practice. I don't think the 10 inch range is a total show stopper though since Druids can harpoon. And all it takes is one crit knockdown and it heads south really quick for a enemy warnoun. Even if you never use the animus, the threat you have with Druids ad it is huge.
1. You have to get your Woldwrath up to get his Animus Perk online (he is slow).
2. You have to get your Druids into range to take advantage of it.
3. You have to get your other models (there won't be many of them) ready to try and profit by the knockdown/pull.
While doing the three things above you must avoid the alpha strike on your slow, near impossible to protect Woldwrath, hope that it isn't bleeding away to ranged, and protect your damn Druids too. If you put a tarpit unit in front of these guys there goes some MORE points you won't get back and that dig into your ability to profit. Do you see where I'm going with this. The damn model is an elaborate Rube Goldberg Machine that only pays off if all the stars align and your opponent is a moron.
That's pretty offensive. Just saying.Originally Posted by Bakemono;
Re the Druids 10 inch range, was referring that Druids can easily pull something into the 10 inch range because they are faster and start at ad compare to wrath.
I don't understand how your theory of killling Druids vs the wrath is valid though. A opponent sees warpwolves, he will kill warpwolves. He sees wolds, he will try to kill them. It more points yes, but it's also tougher than anything less points. I don't get how woldwrath doesn't get to be protected, but everything else gets to be?
I think we've covered all the theory we can. Looking at the colossals it seems most factions are finding they have some good uses and fit in with several well used casters.
The Woldwrath certainly seems to be mid-table as far as both gargantuans and colossals go so I have to assume its going to see a good deal of play.
If the Druids are in range (by virtue of being way out front) to push/pull a target into the range of the Woldwrath's Animus it means they already shot it with their blast and hence didn't get full benefit of the power which boosts their Push/Pull blasts. The whole point is to have the Woldwrath in position to maximize their shooting, not the other way around.Re the Druids 10 inch range, was referring that Druids can easily pull something into the 10 inch range because they are faster and start at ad compare to wrath.
It isn't tougher than anything else. Nearly everything hits it short of rolling snake eyes. The Armor is decent but not incredible. I face Khador on a regular basis and I can assure you that ARM-20 is just day to day business. It has a lot of spirals. So what? It will either take one supercharged Heavy or two to kill it. The difference being that it is easier to alpha strike. It isn't a "theory" by the way. Did you miss the part where I posted that I tested it in the field by proxy. I didn't do this just one or two times. Our game is one of glass cannons, wherein the damage output is always far more than the ability to absorb it. The Woldwrath, like all the other big'uns tends to go down in one round because your opponent has the luxury of being able to focus on it. You, on the other hand, have fewer models and thus less to retaliate with. Two nasty heavies means the forward one gets hit, and then you retaliate with the second. One big nasty model means your opponent concentrates on killing it and you don't have a second to hit back. Even when you do have more models, your opponent will always have one more than you. Using the new giants makes it MANDATORY that you get up a Heavy on your opponent to ensure parity when your giant goes down. That means YOU must make the alpha strike which isn't likely to happen with the Woldwrath.I don't understand how your theory of killling Druids vs the wrath is valid though. A opponent sees warpwolves, he will kill warpwolves. He sees wolds, he will try to kill them. It more points yes, but it's also tougher than anything less points. I don't get how woldwrath doesn't get to be protected, but everything else gets to be?
Bake... how is it slow? It has one less inch than our warpwolves, and it has reach. On top of that, it still benefits from one of our better speed buffs - hunter's mark. This notion that it is slow as molasses is being overblown.
No one complains about Megalith's 5" range when they can trample/charge anywhere between 8" and 12" depending on Gnarlhorn/Wayfarer to project that bubble. Now you have a 10" bubble to do the same, albeit with the caveat of the larger base being harder to maneuver. Still, that's a 24.7" sphere that can move up to a foot.
The main problem with the animus is not so much getting targets in range, but that it makes you drive the Wrath deep into enemy lines, where it is pretty vulnerable to being nickel-and-dimed to death. You'll definitely want to keep a stone in contact with it at all times. Stones are a bit awkward to use for concentrated healing, though, at least compared to mechanics and such. If we don't get a Wold-support model, healing will definitely be a concern.
Anyway, I'm more confused that people are still so outraged/care about Bakemono's antics. He has one of these little fits in every new release thread (see Ghetorix), and whatever value his opinions do have applies mainly to his own local meta. Nothing to get upset over.
Last edited by VOLK; 07-24-2012 at 06:19 PM.
Alright, I ran it in an eBaldur list tonight and finally got good use out of it. Also finally got the NQ with the rules in it as well, so I don't have to use my net-ruled copy.
eBaldur Tier 4
2x Gallows Grove
The animus allowed me to pretty much slaughter an entire unit of Nihilators with two Crevasse - one arced through a Gallows Grove by eBaldur, one Geomancied from Megalith, as well as sniping out Hakaar and killing another Nihilator on the bounce with his lightning gun. Skorne player couldn't make a single tough roll... all 1-4s. The turn after that, he killed two lights (Cyclops) that had moved to contest a flag objective (which was held by an ARM 24 Woldwatcher). Between strategic placements of Rock Walls and the occasional sacrificial Shifting Stone, he hadn't taken a single point of damage the entire game. Not only that, by the end of the game, he was well in position to back up my assassination run if necessary, or go to town on a lot of models. Finally got the positioning right.
The eBaldur list is interesting because aside from Druids, most of the list doesn't have to worry about being knocked down by Earth Shaker. The tricky part is getting your order of activation down. I actually had to use Druid UA's Beast Master due to needing to force a Woldwatcher that was about to charge out of Baldur's control area - initial charge was free, but I needed to force later for Stone Form.
Only thing I'm just not sure about is taking Druids with it, unless you really need them for a tier list. Personally I'm beginning to think I'd be better served by taking some other infantry over Druids at 50, mainly for the reasons that Bakemono stated above - generally I'm finding that the Druids end up getting up in front of the Woldwrath and never really get to benefit from its' animus.
Next up for testing is going to probably be Morvahna.
has giving troops in the woldwrath's animus range magical weapons via the purebloods animus been discussed yet? I think it would work because the wraths animus is rng self, is that a correct assumption?
What do you mean? They don't get boosted attack rolls as the animus boosts magic attacks, not magical attacks
^This. Much as I wish I could essentially get boosted attack rolls on all magical attacks... but that'd be a weeeee bit too powerful.
I don't have one of these fits with every new release. You are correct, however, that I did not like the Ghetorix when I first saw it and made the mistake of judging it before testing it properly. I own that mistake. I have also, happily, eaten crow over it and come to embrace him. I don't like certain things about him, but since those things don't matter to what I use him for, it is all good. Having had to eat crow on our Big Bad Wolf, I made sure to test the newer models more before relying on theoryhammer. My views on the Woldwrath are merely the results of really wanting him to work and finding he doesn't (at least not currently). Given my love for Druids, I really did want him to function. He is kind of the opposite of the Ghetorix in a way. The Ghetorix, on paper, looked awful to me but turned out to play very well for my style. The Woldwrath, on paper, looked very promising to me but utterly failed in the field. Go figure.Anyway, I'm more confused that people are still so outraged/care about Bakemono's antics. He has one of these little fits in every new release thread (see Ghetorix), and whatever value his opinions do have applies mainly to his own local meta. Nothing to get upset over.
I agree with you that additional support models that give us some way to keep it alive would go a long way, but only time will tell on that front. I do complain about the 5" speed because the ability to trample/charge is not what it does best. The weird lack of synergy in effect means I don't want to charge into battle. I just want it where I want it, which ideally gets the Animus in optimal position for the rest of my army to push/pull key targets into range to be killed while I hit and run. Lining this up logistically difficulty (to say the least) because the narrow band of optimal effect isn't user friendly. Moreover, an offensive army (the kind that can take advantage of push/pull tends to outrun the Woldwrath by constantly shifting position. This makes that narrow band of effect even harder to attain. In short, unless you barrel that damn thing in there, you have a hard time using it. Rushing it right in means a very limited lifespan.
To put it another way, I don't need the Woldwrath for fighting. I have more cost-effective things for that. The only thing I really want out of it is the Animus, and the price is just too high for it particularly when making the Animus work is a chore in and of itself.
The first several games I played with Circle, I thought the stones were a chore to use. Now positioning them is like second nature. This animus may be similar down the line..... at least I hope so. Black clad sprays, or offensive spells with certain casters, it will get a rhythm sooner or later.
I really just wanted to feel better about Awareness, I do a little bit .
Don't blame bad dice rolls for your losses. It was your lack of planning that made you roll trip-ones.
From my experience, positioning is absolutely key to getting the best use out of the Woldwrath. And it is hard (or at least, it is for me) to get positioning with that huge base right, especially trying to get any sort of charge off.
The funny thing is, I think the Woldwrath would absolutely rock out (heh) at 75 points. Then you have the points to play with to give it the toys it wants (models with magic attacks) and the support it needs (tarpit/skirmish unit in front, another hard-hitting heavy).
For the positioning issue, when using Druids in front of the big guy, I like to put my warlock up there and use the animus, then the Druids go and take advantage, then shifting stones move my caster back behind the Wrath (or behind where its going to be).
Down But Good Completed Warmachine Fan Fiction, novel length.
Grayle is also one of those casters that may be within 10" of the enemy's front line at the end of his turn, and for awareness purposes he went first.... He could make use of the Animus, for the occasional black clad spray etc, if you are bent on getting use out of it.
Last edited by stupidmonkey; 07-27-2012 at 08:39 AM.
Don't blame bad dice rolls for your losses. It was your lack of planning that made you roll trip-ones.
Ok, with the new No Quarter in hand and both Circle and Troll army books in front of me I did some comparisons. I came away feeling the Mountain King is not nearly as bad off as the world seems to think, and the Wold Wrath is not nearly as good as I originally thought.
What it all comes down to is support. By themselves, the Wold Wrath is fairly superior. But they're never going to be just by themselves. Trolls have support coming out of of all sorts of places. There's no reason the MK won't be at ARM 21 all the time, and likely +1 STR from the same effect when it matters. With its huge base, it won't be hard for it to gain another +2 ARM and often +2 SPD as well from Elemental Communion, and it can get another +2 on melee damage rolls from the Pyre or Slag troll when it needs to kill something big. So now they have an ARM 23, P+S 22 (effectively), FURY 5 beast with crazy whelp healing ready to wreck face. MAT 5 sucks, but that's why PP invented great support spells like Wild Aggression and Fortune (and a few others that I can't think of the name of off the top of my head) and gave them to Trolls.
So how do we support the Wold Wrath? We can't increase its armor. We can't increase its strength, aside from some application of Curse of Shadows. We can't increase its MAT/RAT. We can give it some speed bumps, but as near as I can tell that's pretty much it. Only one of our casters can heal it, and the Stones can only heal it every other turn while it's on the move which it always will be. It's animus is GREAT and I am very much looking forward to it, but it's starting to look more like a 20 point support piece with a huge target on its head that we can't support. At least they fixed Shield Guard, so my ARM 24 Woldwatchers can absorb some fire sent at it.
The funny thing is, most of the Troll support that has great application on the MK is non-spell based. If we had any non-spell support like that, this would be a total non-issue. *fingers crossed for some future releases that can actually support huge expensive models*
Last edited by Bishop84; 07-27-2012 at 12:55 PM.
Originally Posted by Valander
I think if you consider the woldwrath to be a 20pt support piece then you're not using all 20 points of it. Also, what i think Bishop is saying is that if it's dead, or not where it becomes effective - on the front line, it can't support your army...
People are forgetting that the gargantuans book will have new units as well as casters and the gargantuans. Comparing these to their Warmachine counterparts is pointless as they will no doubt get some supporting stuff in the book too. Ill be making my mind up on how good they are once the book is out and we have all the info.
Indeed, we can look how its going to do for now, but there may be other elements in the book including a new caster. If we get some kind of solo that can heal constructs then it will be a nice buff to the Woldwrath and also for Baldur2.
Personally I'd prefer a solo that can choose to a) heal a construct d6 or b) give a construct +2 to damage rolls. While I like Circle constructs, most of the time they feel pillow-fisted. I don't know. Maybe we could get a 3 man druid character unit with one character to buff living, one to buff construct, and one to buff infantry.
I'll add plus one to the desire for a solo or small unit that buffs and heals constructs specifically. Baldur can hardly be the only druid around who can repair wolds with magic, even if he is the best. I love wolds and the whole theme of them but I shy away from models with such low raw damage output. I'd love for a all wold battlegroup to be viable outside of the Baldur's, being able to create an army of almost entirely non-living models would be pretty sweet and fit with part of the Circle theme that I think sometimes gets a little overlooked in favour of the Wolves and Tharn.
So be careful what you wish for. That having been said, I would love something like that for Circle, since I do enjoy me some Wolds.
Our plethora of 'Self' Animi, the 'Wrath's non-livingness, and Spell Ward basically strand the 'Wrath all by itself.
Originally Posted by Valander