Trolls in low point games.

[Cowan]

Hi, so I've recently started a Trollblood army. I've kept track and played 20 games so far and noticed a disturbing trend.

At 15-25 points I'm 0 - 9

At 35-50 points I'm 10 - 1 ( the one loss was 1/4 inch away from being a win too)

All but 1 of those games are with Grim. When I think about the low point games I find I never have room for the key support pieces that Trolls absolutely need. Its possible I'm trying to do too much instead of focusing.

Example 15 point:

Grim
EBDT
Impaler
Axer

Grim
Bomber
Impaler
10 Burrowers

Example 25

Grim
Mauler
Bomber
Impaler
6 Burrowers
Fell Caller


I just bought Calandra and feel like her spell list allows you to get away without a few support pieces. Just wondering what the community thinks of Trolls in low point games?

[Davian2K5]

To me (and this may be subject to significant disagreement), I've found Grim to be somewhat more lacking in low point games. To me, Grim is particularly strong at range, with the ability to use his guns, picking off key support pieces. I haven't been as fond of him in the lower points because he's less durable than some of our others. Small point games I personally don't like him particularly because he's a bit more lacking in melee compared to others, and with only one shot per turn, it's harder to put out much damage.

I've preferred casters such as p or eMadrak or Borka (I LOVE Borka in low point games). They have more personal durability, a lot of melee hitting power, and you can count on them personally for caster kills. Calandra might be good; I haven't played her below 35, so I'm unsure. She can do a lot of personal setting up to create angles for you, so she might work very well. Her abilities (generally) also minimize the effects of dice, which can help a lot at that point value.

Borka is the one I personally end up swearing by in low point games. He's extremely durable himself, and with one or two other pieces (Kriels, Janissa are personal favorites) you can turn Borka into a wrecking ball of doom. He's hard to hit, can't be knocked down, you can easily drive his armor to 19 or 21, and with Iron Flesh he's a 17/19 or 17/21.

[tallted]

I do well with both doomshapers at low points. Theyre squishy, but support the beasts well, which is what low point games are really all about.

[duende]

I love the trolls al low points.

I use eDoomshaper

Edoom:
Mulg
Mauler

eDoom
Mulg
Axer
Janissa Stonetide.

I love the second list, try it !

[tallted]

For 15pt my go to is
Doomy1
Mulg
EBDT
25 IS
Doomy2
Mulg
EBDT
Mauler

There is a discussion on the second list on the scrum I believe, by TheGreatBlah.

[PG_sweetooth]

i would have to argee with Davian2K5 to a degree my go to 15pt list is borka mauler min fenns fell caller and jennisa and the only reason is mat 8 def 15 fenns that couse knockdown at reach in a point lvl that most arnt sporting reach and jennisa can move things out of the way!
now for the other caster that i think shines at low lvls is jarl he makes you hit first and you have to keep either your caster stay away from you and/or stay 4" away from everything and hes still fast enouph to get out of the **** if needed and lest say he gos against anyone rellying on infantrie he can kill 4 models a turn!

[Arizona_Troll]

At 15 points I've been pretty successful with

Emadrak
Mauler
Max Fennblades
Fell caller

It packs a lot of punch and has a decent model count. It's also a blast to play!

[Sardonic Artery]

Trolls really shine at 50 and are okay at 35.

15-point games are skewed anyway, but I've enjoyed Grim + Mauler + Impaler + min scattergunners + UA at 15 (if you still want to run with Grim).

[HellecticMojo]

wouldn't that be said for any army though?

[Sardonic Artery]

wouldn't that be said for any army though?

For Menoth, Skorne and Trolls especially, we need the points to balance support and meat. My Cygnar, Gators and Mercs run just fine at 15. Same goes for my Cryx and Khador opponents.

[PG_Goldstep]

I would say some casters do better at low points within trolls. Tellted said booth Doomies, for example.
I prefer Doomie1 for small games, because he can target arc nodes which are expensive and players won't often have spares. If there's no arcing for Warmachine, he can shut off casting pretty hard on the feat turn.
He can remove upkeeps which tend to be more potent in small games because they cover larger fractions of the army.
He has two really decent upkeeps himself, which become more potent when in a low point army.

That said, small point games tend to be a lot of eggs in a small basket, every time. So it's a bit of a paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock game. You get a warmachine game with a non-spellcaster who has few upkeeps if any and you will still have huge issues. You get Rahn with a Pheonix, an arcanist, and 2 units of battle mages, you might watch banishing ward ruin lives and friendships.

[PG_Viper114]

I actually found a bit of success with:

Chief Madrak Ironhide (*6pts)
* Slag Troll (6pts)
* Troll Axer (6pts)
* Dire Troll Mauler (9pts)

Since our area is primarily dominated by Warmachine (I and one other play Hordes exclusively), the Slag Troll fits perfectly. And the whole Sure Foot brick is tough to get around at times.

[Sprawlio]

At my store the majority of games are played at a low point level. I find the most important thing in these games is to always bring a min unit of Fenns. 5 points for six models with reach that can deny a large area from the enemy for a turn, while simultaneously jamming them up so I can get my beasts where they need to be. For example today in a twenty point game of no mans land. My fenns kamikazed into my opponent players front line by my turn two. by the end of my turn three I had used my Axer and impaler to kill the three models of my opponents that had managed to sneak into the no mans land and won the game via scenario with the loss of 4 out 6 fennblades and a single point of damage with continuous fire on my Axer. I was running Grim as I find cross country is a nice way of handing the fenns pathfinder. Also when my opponent knows I can touch his warnoun from 13" without using the farstrike animus and 17" with it they tend to keep the caster/lock much to far away to be used to full effect. If I know my opponent is going Infantry heavy or the table will have sparse terrain I leave grim at home and let Madrack out to party. Nobody says F-you to Infantry like good ole Maddy.
Also I find Trollblood Heavies a bit pricey in low point games and like to use our amazing light beasts(Pyre/Slag, Axer, Impaler)( I'm sure someone could make the swamp or bouncer work. Lets just not think of that winter troll the rules are ok I guess but the model is IMO the ugliest in our faction)

These are just my as with everything you read on forums your millage may vary and tak with a grain of salt.

[downtown_adam]

My go-to list for 15pt games is:
Madrak Ironhide, Thornwood Chieftain
*Dire Troll Mauler
5 Trollkin Champions
Stone Scribe Chronicler

Brick up and tear across the table. The Champions will be defense 16 against shooting, and armor 18 with no knockdown. If your opponent brings lots of infantry, you can feat to chew through them. If he brings just warjacks, the champions can even kill those too!

Defense 14 is really the sweet spot for this game. If you try out this army, count the number of times your opponent rolls 12s and 13s to hit your champions. Surefoot is an amazing buff.

[The Happy Anarchist]

To me (and this may be subject to significant disagreement), I've found Grim to be somewhat more lacking in low point games. To me, Grim is particularly strong at range, with the ability to use his guns, picking off key support pieces. I haven't been as fond of him in the lower points because he's less durable than some of our others. Small point games I personally don't like him particularly because he's a bit more lacking in melee compared to others, and with only one shot per turn, it's harder to put out much damage.

I've preferred casters such as p or eMadrak or Borka (I LOVE Borka in low point games). They have more personal durability, a lot of melee hitting power, and you can count on them personally for caster kills. Calandra might be good; I haven't played her below 35, so I'm unsure. She can do a lot of personal setting up to create angles for you, so she might work very well. Her abilities (generally) also minimize the effects of dice, which can help a lot at that point value.

Borka is the one I personally end up swearing by in low point games. He's extremely durable himself, and with one or two other pieces (Kriels, Janissa are personal favorites) you can turn Borka into a wrecking ball of doom. He's hard to hit, can't be knocked down, you can easily drive his armor to 19 or 21, and with Iron Flesh he's a 17/19 or 17/21.

I'm going to have to disagree with this - I run Grim a lot because he is relatively hard to kill because of being able to hang back farther in the lists I build with him, other than feat turn which he should rarely be in much danger on. Moreover, I bring extremely close to 0-2 points worth of support models in my Grim lists, which means virtually every point in the list is a point that will be fighting.

I also have found that our supposedly "hitty" casters can rapidly lose steam in the late game if your damage buff is taken out. Pow 15 is actually not particularly impressive to most heavies, or several camping casters. Especially in comparison to casters like the Butcher, eStryker, Gaspy's that have inherent damage buffing, Terminus, eThagrosh, even Xerxis with Fury. It almost means that your damage buff is as important as your caster in some games.

That has been my experience, which combined with the brick build requiring a minimum of 7-8 points worth of support models to play leads me to avoid those casters.

eMadrak is an exception as you can get by with a single Fell Caller and a bunch of infantry, and can drop Blood Frenzy on himself for Pow 15 weaponmaster, which is a lot more reasonable.

[Davian2K5]

I'm going to have to disagree with this - I run Grim a lot because he is relatively hard to kill because of being able to hang back farther in the lists I build with him, other than feat turn which he should rarely be in much danger on. Moreover, I bring extremely close to 0-2 points worth of support models in my Grim lists, which means virtually every point in the list is a point that will be fighting.

I also have found that our supposedly "hitty" casters can rapidly lose steam in the late game if your damage buff is taken out. Pow 15 is actually not particularly impressive to most heavies, or several camping casters. Especially in comparison to casters like the Butcher, eStryker, Gaspy's that have inherent damage buffing, Terminus, eThagrosh, even Xerxis with Fury. It almost means that your damage buff is as important as your caster in some games.

That has been my experience, which combined with the brick build requiring a minimum of 7-8 points worth of support models to play leads me to avoid those casters.

eMadrak is an exception as you can get by with a single Fell Caller and a bunch of infantry, and can drop Blood Frenzy on himself for Pow 15 weaponmaster, which is a lot more reasonable.

Out of curiosity, THA, what do you run with Grim at 15/25? I've just had issues with survivability at low point games with him, in a bad way. I'm usually fine with him higher points (35+), so maybe I just need to take a look at my list. I like him a lot, so I'd like to be able to run him better, but I haven't had a ton of success.

That said, I also got really frustrated the last time I played cause the guy brought a Makeda Molik Karn rocket at 15 points and kept him just out of range of where I could get Grim to him to stop him up. So, maybe that's not the best comparison. But I'd appreciate seeing what someone else runs; maybe it's all in the list

Also, the list I run with Borka is nearly identical so someone's list above; I take a Mauler with me, which serves as a nice animus battery to drive Borka up to POW 18 on important turns, and stack Fennblades in front. I don't really run him as a brick, but instead just with significant jamming. Most of my local meta generally doesn't bring something to deal with high def at those point values, so it's worked out well, and I can usually keep them jammed up well enough to make sure I get the alpha.

[razcalking]

I've been running the following Grim 25 list with good results:

Grim
*Bomber
*Impaler
Janissa
Min. Fennblades + UA
Fell Caller
Stone Scribe Chronicler
Swamp Gobbers

Occasionally swap out the Fenns/Caller/SSC/Gobbers for Min. Long Riders + Horthol.

[Davian2K5]

Hrmm, interesting. Have you found that it has enough hitting power to deal with high ARM? I know the Bomber can throw out some, but that would be a worry to me. Just curious

[razcalking]

Hrmm, interesting. Have you found that it has enough hitting power to deal with high ARM? I know the Bomber can throw out some, but that would be a worry to me. Just curious

Heavy hitting power is probably the list's biggest problem; however, if I can't kill something, I try to mitigate it through knockdown and Lock the Target. Even high ARM models go down under weight of attacks when you don't have to worry about missing.

[Davian2K5]

True, and even if it doesn't go down entirely, between those abilities you're effectively keeping it out of the game and can move around it. That can be just as good as killing it sometimes.

Just came up with a mild modification to that list that I might try. Min Fenns + UA + Caller + etc. adds up to 13 points. I might try putting in the Sons of Bragg at 6, then min Kriels + UA + maybe a caber, or min Fenns + UA still. The Sons give you significantly more hitting power, still with a fairly good speed at SPD 6, and you have a screening Krie/Fennl unit. So now you've got the 3 Sons of Bragg giving utility, KW's/Fenns for tarpit/damage potential, along with your other trappings.

In theory in my head, I'm liking it. Sons can work fairly well on their own, with minimal help needed to support them. They can be solid against infantry spam (<3 <3 <3 that 8" RAT 8 spray, it has been ungodly good for me), or they can tear down a Jack or Beast in one turn fairly reliably.

The screening unit can buy you time/remove infantry from the board, depending upon the situation. In combination with Grim's ability to negate high defense (Feat, Knockdown, Marked...), I don't think you'd be missing the Fell Caller as much (although that occasionally still isn't true).

Might have to try this out in the next night or two. I like it in theory right now.

[razcalking]

I like the Sons as well, but I have a hard time giving up the utility of the Fellcaller/SSC. The alpha strike from the Fenns hits so much harder at MAT 8. I've toyed with losing the SSC/Gobbers and replacing them with a Champ Hero.

Any 3 point Minion solos that would help with heavy hitting?

[Davian2K5]

Nothing I can think of; Champ Hero is just about the best I can think of for heavy hitting. He's going to add more than any minions I can think of.

Totem Hunter is nice, but I wouldn't classify him under heavy hitter; he's more a hit and run, kill targets of opportunity kind of piece to me. He can sting heavies a little bit, but then he's not bouncing back out if it doesn't die, which doesn't really fulfill his role, and honestly Grim himself can hold that slot in a solid manner. So... Not sure that he really adds anything to it.

I also love the utility of the Caller and the SSC, quite true. The two things I'd miss from them in particular in this case would be Pathfinder and Concealment. I guess (although it's not always perfect) I generally feel like Grim's feat and Marked would make worry a little less.

I might play around with it some for a bit, and honestly a ton of its going to come down to personal preference. I like the Sons of Bragg in the list, but that's purely my personal play style There might be some other combination of those points that would work well.

Heck, if nothing else, although it strips out the SSC and gobbers, you could max out the Fenns. That entirely depends on how much you feel like the SSC gives you, though. Tis all about playstyle!

[jdripley]

I think you should seriously consider the Earthborn Dire Troll in low point games. He's probably the easiest beast we've got to be totally awesome with. You really don't need him to use his animus since he has it as an ability already. He self-buffs is POW against most enemies. He's got great raw stats. And his Animus can do great things for other models in whatever list you're taking. Sure he's half your list at 15 points, or a third of your list at 25 points, but Trolls have enough cheap units and whatnot that you can get away with it.

Here's what I'd do for 15 points:
pMadrak
-Earthborn Dire Troll
-Impaler
Full Kriel Warriors (no attachments)

pMadrak buffs MAT so you don't need a Fellcaller. Two beasts because of the way Hordes works, you want some options if a beast goes down. If not the Impaler I'd probably take Janissa + Chronicler, but I really want the extra beast. Kriels have plenty of kill in them vs both infantry and beasts/jacks, they're your best all-comers unit.

To boost it up to 25 points here's what I'd add:
Krielstone Bearer unit Min
Runeshapers
Janissa

Again, pMadrak buffs MAT so you don't need a fellcaller. Krielstone Bearer is pure win when combined with Surefoot from Madrak, so they're an easy addition. Be aware that you'll have to put some fury onto the stone on turn 2... Runeshapers give you some range to support the Impaler and some utility, and Janissa is Janissa, right?

In the 15 point list you don't spend anything on support and simply rely on pMadrak's buffs and the general utility of the models in their own right. At 25 points you're only spending 6 points out of your 31 available points on support, that's 20% of your points, and Janissa does so much more than put up a wall, so you're double dipping with those points anyways.

In short, I don't think Trolls suffer very much at low points, but I admit that it can be pretty easy to get caught up with the whole support thing and get ahead of yourself. For example at 15 points if you wanted to buff up those Kriel Warriors to the max, you might build this:
pMadrak
-Slag Troll (or Pyre, but you have 6 beast points so... yeah..)
Full Kriels + all attachments
Min Krielstone + Elder

And then you get frustrated that there aren't points left for the Fellcaller or the Stone Scribe Chronicler. You're all jazzed up about buffing up those cabers and wrecking things, but you've got no true heavy hitter (yes cabers count, but only sortof), you have jack squat for range, and in general your list lacks in many ways. So what I'm trying to say is that Trolls don't lack in low point games unless you're trying to get all of the synergy you'd get at 35 or 50 points into a 15 or 25 point list. By using more self-sufficient models at the lower point games, you'll do just fine.