So uh....Legendary casters...

[MathPasta]

They are kinda underwhelming.

Im not saying they where bad casters. Oh no, LVlad was great.

But PP was hyping them up saying that they have more impact on the battlefield then before...Im not seeing it unless you mean the inbuilt attachment.

[PG_Duckboy]

Vlad3 is an excellent choice and probably main choice for my 100-150 pt games.

as well as probably getting him into my tournament rotation.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

Vlad3 has a vile hatred of Mechanics. And that will win him games.

-Rick

[mcdermott]

They all bring something to the table that their respective faction did not have before.

First off the cav casters bring a whole slew of powerful rules along with them, tall in the saddle, impact attacks, Kreoss brings what is probably the best elite cadre ability ever given to a caster, vlad brings the first (and probably best) infantry speed boost to khador, and his combination of flashing blade + tall in the saddle + blood quenched make him absolutely disgusting vs infantry...combine it with his sidestep feat turn and he can potentially wipe out an entire unit of infantry on his own. 3gaspy is cryx's first legitimate infantry boosting caster and his combination of abilities plus feat make using him as an assassin very very feasable. The simple existence of mobility in his spell list also means you can easily use him as a jack caster, something they sort of lack outside of mortenebra. Picture if you would an ashen veiled scavenger under mobility making an assassination run on some caster you manage to put a point or two of damage on in a previous turn. Def 18 16 vs free strikes 12 inch charge for a pow 11 weaponmaster attack. Pretty ugly.

3mo ....well, he's probably going to sit right next to ehaley for the purposes of competitive cygnar casters...boosted electric damage rolls on feat turn could pretty easily end an entire infantry heavy list on that turn alone given the amount of lightning cygnar can throw.


Edit: and truth be told, we're only just now beginning to see the potential in a lot of the wrath/domination casters after people have played more than a handful of games with them, the true potential of these casters is unlikely to be realized until months of testing by the playerbase.

[Steamwitch]

You also MUST keep in mind that the "other" incarnations of war-noun (x) are not by any means "better" as PP intended. Even tho that in iself is debaitable for a few epics. But they arent upgrades simply playstyle alterations. Like butcher1 is tankey, and butcher2 is killy doom spammy. They will never be "better all around" because that means you are toeing GW territory makeing a model that was popular and what have you get shelved because of the flavor of the month. I like pIrusk more then eIrusk. But they play different. I wouldent call Legendary warcasters underwhelming as mush as another caster we can play for an armu type.

[Steamwitch]

oh a bad joke i have: Mabey they meant "IMPACT ATTACKS!" badump-tisss!

[MathPasta]

Still. Im just kinda let down.

[PG_Duckboy]

Still. Im just kinda let down.

I think the releases as a whole have been very good with relation to power creep. (ie keeping it under control)

[John of Arc]

I feel you on this one. I'm not talking about being extra powerful, no one wants that. But PP did mention that the new casters would have more field presence, and I'm not seeing that. I am seeing that in the new Hordes casters, though. Lylyth is a battle engine? Grim is a whole freaking unit? THOSE are new and exciting. The Warmachine run of legendary casters was solid, and most of them are probably about as powerful as they can be without being over the top. But they don't have that 'whoa' factor that a battle engine warcaster has, or even Harbinger and Terminus.

Still, I like most of them. I just don't think they have the field presence that PP hinted they would have.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

A warcaster with impact attacks, flshing blades, an army wide speed buff, 7 focus, and blood-freaking-quenched isn't enough field presence for you?

-Rick

[John of Arc]

Not in a faction that has Epic Butcher and Karchev

[mcdermott]

2 more speed than butcher and 3 more speed than karchev.

[quindraco]

Im not saying they where bad casters. Oh no, LVlad was great.

Seriously? Come on. Dash is money, but Infernal Machine is just Superiority made worse, and his feat is probably the second worst in Khador. The best conceivable lVlad list will lose, hard, to a well-done eVlad or pVlad list (in fact, eVlad can probably take lVlad's list and run it better). I really don't think he qualifies as 'great'. As best he's medium-grade and on par with the bulk of our casters and the other casters out there. This might change with the greylord cav, of course, so who can say?

[mcdermott]

Meh, terror is about as equivalent as the difference between 10 and 12 def on our jacks in my experience as far as impact on the game goes, the +2 spd and mat is the important thing about both spells if you're not running ivan anyway.

Also given the cav options we have already, sprint and sidestep can be a little ridiculous with the tall in the saddle rule....and especially with fenris.

[HellVenom]

LVlad isn't the first of the cav casters for warmachine and he isn't the first Large/unusual caster that Khador has. He just happens to be the third incarnation of Vlad which gives him the L categorization just the same as the MKII E categorization before it. It’s better to think of him as Vlad3 and not LVlad as the legendary doesn't make him any less killable.

As for field presence, epic cavalry charge, a speed up drago, and Vlad with a new range of souped up melee powers. The only way that could have more presence and still be Khador is if LButcher came with a mortar that shots doom reavers across the board with arcing fire and an 18" control area.

Also mercs didn't get a L caster, but their guy has just as much "field presence" as any of the others.

It’s also safe to say that if we didn't get a L caster regardless of who we got, the forums would be on fire complaining about how PP hates Khador. Is Vlad3 the greatest thing since sliced bread? No, but he defiantly offers a new set of opportunities for our faction especially given some players distrust of IFU.

[Tico Love]

When I read the article where PP said that new Warcasters would have more "Presence", I took it to mean that they would be visually more noticeable on the table. Hence, they are all on Horses or come with extra models. I really don't think that they meant that the new Warcasters would have greater influence over their armies play style than older Warcasters.

That being said, I am pretty excited about Vlad on a Horse. I can't wait to get him on the table. I think he is the first Vlad with an truly impressive looking sculpt, I'm pretty sure that he is going to be a lot of fun to play with, and I'm looking forward to developing new tactics with him.

[ScottEBJJ]

Seriously? Come on. Dash is money, but Infernal Machine is just Superiority made worse, and his feat is probably the second worst in Khador. The best conceivable lVlad list will lose, hard, to a well-done eVlad or pVlad list (in fact, eVlad can probably take lVlad's list and run it better). I really don't think he qualifies as 'great'. As best he's medium-grade and on par with the bulk of our casters and the other casters out there. This might change with the greylord cav, of course, so who can say?

I find this statement dubious at best. But par for initial reactions on this forum to models yet released.

[PG_Shadow37]

Vlad3 looks like he is going to be very fun to play and competitive to boot. His base armor is +1 from Vlad2. Let's just say he is camping 4 focus before he charges into the enemy ranks. He'll be at ARM 21. Let's assume he destroys two enemies with his two initial attacks putting him up to ARM 23 from Blood Quenched. I'm not even considering any impact attacks.

If you popped his feat you can use Side Step to position Vlad into some very useful areas prior to casting Flashing Blade. Even with average success Vlad will be approaching Terminus levels of ARM. Then with Sprint you can advance Vlad right into the face of the enemy caster. There are not many casters will be able to handle a ARM 25+ model with a decent DEF stat.

If I were to have jacks with Vlad3 I would use them to engage all the models that can damage Vlad during the feat turn. Between their normal advance, Side Steps, and Sprint they should be able to reach their targets without much trouble.

This guy's movement shenanigans is going to be a headache for your opponents.

[OrsusSmash]

Seriously? Come on. Dash is money, but Infernal Machine is just Superiority made worse, and his feat is probably the second worst in Khador. The best conceivable lVlad list will lose, hard, to a well-done eVlad or pVlad list (in fact, eVlad can probably take lVlad's list and run it better). I really don't think he qualifies as 'great'. As best he's medium-grade and on par with the bulk of our casters and the other casters out there. This might change with the greylord cav, of course, so who can say?

I'm not going to comment one way or the other about Vlad3's effectiveness, but comments about Infernal Machine being a worse Superiority make me twitch, so I have to say:

Infernal Machine is all the things you want offensively out of Superiority, and at a cheaper up front cost. For an aggressive 'caster, it's a much better spell to have because you can much more easily get out all of your initial upkeeps or "must cast" spells, and still get Infernal Machine out there. It gives you more casting flexibility at the cost of some defensive buffs (which are good but not amazing.)

For example, if Strakov had Infernal Machine, he'd have a much easier time with his first turn, and he'd be much less screwed if/when it gets stripped off by Eiryss3/Purification.

OT: I think what PP was hinting at with the 3rd epic 'casters was that they'd be affecting large swathes of the table, and generally causing a lot of ruckus. All of them seem to have abilities to that effect: Nemo3 tossing high powered lightning everywhere, Vlad3 Dashing/Sidestepping/Sprinting all over the place, Gaspy3 with Mobility and Carnage, and Kreoss3 with all his upkeeps and his mega upkeep feat.

However, I definitely agree that while these specific rule setups are different and fun, they're not hugely different from how existing 'casters could exhibit a lot of table presence. Still, I'm glad they erred on the side of caution; no one wants another Mk. 1 Vlad2.

[Khador247]

Still, I'm glad they erred on the side of caution; no one wants another Mk. 1 Vlad2.

Raises hand in protest.

[OrsusSmash]

Raises hand in protest.

Fair enough.

Rephrase: Its best for the game that something like likes of Mk. 1 Epic Vlad doesn't happen again.

Though I do miss being able to drop that hammer on people being jerks.

[Evilmerlin]

I'm just curious here but is there ANYTHING in the Khador faction that you are actually happy with?

[PG_Draxos]

I'm just curious here but is there ANYTHING in the Khador faction that you are actually happy with?

I was gonna ask the same thing...

[Kurb]

I find this statement dubious at best. But par for initial reactions on this forum to models yet released.

Im at the point I eye roll almost every time quin, pasta or amamdamamda post.

[Marth]

Grim is a whole freaking unit? THOSE are new and exciting.

'Xcuse me, sir, I have the Witch Coven of Gharlghast on the phone. They'd like to voice their resentment towards that statement (probably via an arced Stygian Abyss)..."

[MathPasta]

Im at the point I eye roll almost every time quin, pasta or amamdamamda post.

"Gasp! Pasta said something negative! Therefore he MUST be wrong! Nothing is EVER negative in Warmachine! You just all sux0rs! Voicing complaints is wrong! Complaining is the DeathJack! Complaints are evil! The game is perfect! Lets engage in mindless praise!"

Also:

Oh no, LVlad was great.

>=(

[Sinsation]

No, it's more comments like this:

The best conceivable lVlad list will lose, hard, to a well-done eVlad or pVlad list (in fact, eVlad can probably take lVlad's list and run it better).

With nothing solid to back it up, on an unreleased model, citing no experience, list builds, opposing forces, or anything useful.
There's a large difference between taking an unbiased look, and complaining/praising without merit.

Likewise,

Here is the deal: Harkevich cannot support many jacks. He lacks the focus. Even with maxed out potential focus bonus (Koldun Lord+Sylys+Free accuracy boost from bond) he just can't make jacks run efficiently. He also wants a jack good at shooting AND melee which unfortunately the majority of ours aren't.

Absolute statements which are really just opinions, when others have shown things quite to the contrary.

[MathPasta]

My experience mate. My experience. Plus I found the Conquest fixing most of that even though my lost was shut down hard against a gunline.

[Kurb]

"Gasp! Pasta said something negative! Therefore he MUST be wrong! Nothing is EVER negative in Warmachine! You just all sux0rs! Voicing complaints is wrong! Complaining is the DeathJack! Complaints are evil! The game is perfect! Lets engage in mindless praise!"

Also:


>=(

No offense, but you come off as a 40k min/maxer. Maybe its just me imagining things.
Sorry, but its constant "This just won't work" comments have rubbed my forum eyes raw.

No, it's more comments like this:

With nothing solid to back it up, on an unreleased model, citing no experience, list builds, opposing forces, or anything useful.
There's a large difference between taking an unbiased look, and complaining/praising without merit.

Likewise,

Absolute statements which are really just opinions, when others have shown things quite to the contrary.

^ That 100%

[ScottEBJJ]

"Gasp! Pasta said something negative! Therefore he MUST be wrong! Nothing is EVER negative in Warmachine! You just all sux0rs! Voicing complaints is wrong! Complaining is the DeathJack! Complaints are evil! The game is perfect! Lets engage in mindless praise!"

Also:


>=(

The sheer fact that you think your viewpoint is at all approaching objective is comical.

It's like watching Fox New play out in the Khador forum.

It's not that you are negative about one thing or ten things but everything that earns you eyerolls.

[PG_Draxos]

Im at the point I eye roll almost every time quin, pasta or amamdamamda post.

You are my friend because of this statement.

With nothing solid to back it up, on an unreleased model, citing no experience, list builds, opposing forces, or anything useful.
There's a large difference between taking an unbiased look, and complaining/praising without merit.

Yeah this sums it up too. Have you run Vlad3? Cause I know someone who has and thinks he is amazing.

If you wanna post then fine, it's a free internet, but please post things that are based on facts and experiance not blatent theory machine with no experiance. Your starting to sound like a certain other player on these forums...

[MathPasta]

Im actually against Min-Maxing (When I can), But I do get disappointed in stuff.

Heck I even like Kossites. Its just when I say something negative you remember it better.

I just don't realy post stuff which are great and everybody knows are great.

I think that the game is balanced, but not in the way I think it should be.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

My experience mate. My experience. Plus I found the Conquest fixing most of that even though my lost was shut down hard against a gunline.

Get more experience mate

It takes time behind the dice, and the more games you get under your belt, the more pro your arguements will sound, and the more people will take you seriously. Right now, so far as I know, you're a relatively new player, with a very small number of games to draw upon. So most folks are going to take your "DOOOOOOOOOM" posts with a grain of salt the size of Texas

-Rick

[Flak Maniak]

Seriously? Come on. Dash is money, but Infernal Machine is just Superiority made worse, and his feat is probably the second worst in Khador. The best conceivable lVlad list will lose, hard, to a well-done eVlad or pVlad list (in fact, eVlad can probably take lVlad's list and run it better). I really don't think he qualifies as 'great'. As best he's medium-grade and on par with the bulk of our casters and the other casters out there. This might change with the greylord cav, of course, so who can say?

Which do you think is the worst? pVlad's or something?

Anyway, Infernal Machine is a little worse than Superiority, but its initial cost of 2 is awesome... Or would be on Strakhov, anyway. It just doesn't seem that much worse, and Terror can sometimes just stun a unit.

I don't disagree about eVlad doing the same things but mostly better. I can get Side Step if I want with Kayazy Eliminators already, and they come with the free strike immunity. Who knows, maybe Uhlan charges two turns in a row will be a thing. Seems unlikely though. Or if it does happen it's because they kill some Mechanithralls or something and then Sprint back. Or that one poor sod rolls snake eyes and has to stay in melee. Maybe the additional mobility will be just the thing. It definitely isn't an obviously powerful feat but we can hope it has non-obvious power.

[Theripontigonus]

I would disagree pretty strongly on the feat. I primarily play circle, dabbling in Khador. I'm very familiar with how nuts sprint is, as I tend to spam it a bit. I even play Grayle a lot just because of side step and sprint. Clad definately caught my eye and I think he's my favorite caster in the book.

[dkvoe]

So I've played 4 games with My Little Vladmir and I think he is FANTASTIC. I suppose people are just hoping that PP will just hand them a broken model. In my last game I really felt I was starting to get a really good grasp on him. I was playing Cryx and there's nothing more refreshing than running a Khador army and being at midfield on turn 1. On feat turn (turn 2) killing off all of Deneghra's nodes and totally collapsing the enemy's right flank, and because of pretty perfect enemy model placement, Drago ending his activation roughly 4 inches from the enemy table edge. Feat +imprint was a thing of beauty. Initially I thought of Dash as "+1 speed. No big deal. " yeah I was wrong.

But what do I know. I've only used him a few times. I'm sure as more people start playing him instead of just theory-machining we will find out he is terrible

[Skylifter]

Im actually against Min-Maxing (When I can), But I do get disappointed in stuff.

Heck I even like Kossites. Its just when I say something negative you remember it better.

I just don't realy post stuff which are great and everybody knows are great.

I think that the game is balanced, but not in the way I think it should be.

I share the impression of others that you come across as very much a purely negative person. I realize that isn't necessarily true, but people who complain a lot about things outside of their own control, like in your case, the rules of a game, often do this to distract themselves from their own internal problems. And while this certainly isn't forbidden or even something to look down upon, in my experience it is always worth it in the long run to look at one's own internal conflicts and take the time to solve them instead of trying to ignore them for as long as you can. Especially because if you successfully ignore things like that long enough, they will explode in your face in one way or another.

Now maybe I'm totally off the mark here, I have only ever read a few posts from you (and reacted like a jerk to some of them I think, for which I beg your forgiveness), but maybe it is something to think about.

As for the topic at hand, I'd really like to know where all those rules have been leaked at all, since I cannot even find them in order to have half a basis for comment.

[Evilmerlin]

http://www.herebegeeks.com/games/loc...-and-spoilers/

Ta da!!

[profparm]

I think that a poster who posts negative opinions but does so with more analysis and words than simply, "OMGHIGHDEFHATEMYKAYAZYAREWORTHLESSTHESKYISFALLING !!!!1111" is at least tolerable. But then again, I tend to be a fairly tolerant person.

I'd have to look through his posts to find an example (and I'm late for work to write this up as it is), but I know I have gained insight from both MathPasta posts and QuinDraco posts (who was mentioned at some point in a similar light). It's worth taking the fact that they more often post negative comments in mind when you read one, but that does make their praise of a model or effect a more powerful gesture. Similarly, someone who says they love every model in Khador, when I read that they say they REALLY hate a 'Jack, I'm more likely to believe that post than the others.

As for the legendary caster topic, I thought it was cool that Vlad was on a horse and that N3mo had a built-in attachment, but I kinda wish they would've...I don't know, spread out the gimmicks more? I mean, I wasn't playing when Karchev and Darius (if that's the Cygnar jackcaster) came out, but if they came out in the same release but Darius was spoiled 4 months earlier, as a Cygnar player I would've felt a little disappointed. Vlad3's model was up on the site when I started, and a model I thought looked cool enough to make me want to do Khador, as well as the very limited other cavalry-caster options. Turns out I could've chosen any WM faction but Cryx (although this is a lie, as there are a million other things I like in Khador, but you get my point). But maybe that's just me.

[PG_Draxos]

I think that a poster who posts negative opinions but does so with more analysis and words than simply, "OMGHIGHDEFHATEMYKAYAZYAREWORTHLESSTHESKYISFALLING !!!!1111" is at least tolerable. But then again, I tend to be a fairly tolerant person.

I'm fine with negativity. At my LGS I'm known for my tendancy to rant on assault kommandos but when I do I state why and I give viable and explained reasons, based on experience. I am also real funny when I do it since I'll throw cursing and various jokes in there. I do the same thing here if I'm being negative. I'll post my comment in a constructive format in order to show why without being overly negative.

The original post here and several other have not had anything other than complaints in them with no actual use to them. That's what I hate.