So uh....Legendary casters...

[nerdkingdan]

I play another game, computer based, where I found myself complaining on the forums endlessly about my chosen "faction". Then one day I switched, and never played the old one again...

Now, almost a year now of continued play, i never complained on the forums about what i play now. I still lose, I still run up to limitations of what I play, etc.... I win a lot less now, and tournament stats put what I am doing now under what I complained about, But I don't complain or get upset because I enjoy what I play now.

It turns out I just did not enjoy playing what I was playing... For me, i wasn't having fun, and I was blaming balance errors, rather than personal preference. So take a step back and consider if it is time to move on?

[MathPasta]

Should I write a list of things I like and explain why? Then will I come off less negative?

Thing is I believe I have the right to be negative. But at the same time I do fall into traps of just mindless hating. When I mindlessly hate, I would love if somebody could snap me out of it, so I could organize my thoughts better.

Im a glass half-empty guy, and I should not be blamed for that. Be free to insert axe to face when I go from glass half-empty to "I HATE ALL GLASSES THIS GLASS IS STUPID I HATE EVERYTHING DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE"

But thats beyond the point of this thread. I liked EVlad. I found him very fluffy and cool.

[Munindk]

I'm disappointed in lVlad simply because I wanted a new Butcher.

[profparm]

I'm disappointed in lVlad because it's not already on to Vlad4 yet. He needs more screentime.

[PG_Duckboy]

It is sad when you are a true "comrade of the Motherland" and you stay away from your faction forum for the most part for the negativity.

[mcdermott]

How to be negative without coming across as unreasonable:

1. Refrain from too much comment on models yet unreleased. Even if you've been proxying you haven't played enough games to have an informed opinion. Look at how zerkova and harkevich are treated now as opposed to when they were newer. Even "This doesn't wow me but i'll give it a shot" is better received than absolute statements of fact.

2. Acknowledge the unique benefits of otherwise underwhelming models. Example: AK's can be a great line unit in non-satyxis cryx heavy environments. Creeping barrage is solid in places where things like nyss, kayazy, and other lightly armored infantry are common. Even "This models utility seems a little niche for regular tournament play" sounds better than "this is bad"

3. Don't write off anything you haven't at least proxied a dozen times or so. When people try something once or twice and go all "bluhhhhh" about it, it just provokes the rest of the forum, you haven't "tried" it if you've only played a handful of games with it, units and models in every game take time to learn to use correctly.

[MathPasta]

Thanks sounds like a solid plan.

[Kuarnix]

2. Acknowledge the unique benefits of otherwise underwhelming models. Example: AK's can be a great line unit in non-satyxis cryx heavy environments. Creeping barrage is solid in places where things like nyss, kayazy, and other lightly armored infantry are common. Even "This models utility seems a little niche for regular tournament play" sounds better than "this is bad"

This one is the biggie. It's much easier (and more constructive for newer players, I think, who are usually the ones looking for advice) to talk about a model when you attempt to define strengths and weaknesses, and good/poor matchups. The Kossites make for a good example I think, they are very useful for picking off obnoxious backfield units and solos and are somewhat threatening to "old man" 'casters (pNemo, Severious), and usually get traded in a way that's unfavorable in points to the Khador player, but can be quite favorable in terms of getting rid of a key model. Not very good for trying to attack uber-units like WGDS, but they can sometimes go after Stormblades and Exemplars. That's a much better analysis (that I think you probably agree with for the most part, and could suggest additional uses that I haven't included) than "okay, but WGI are better"

On the Vlad topic.....I'm a fan of Infernal Machine. I've had some really poor experiences with terror and units (and been on the dishing out end of poor experiences for my opponent), so I'm always very hesitant to charge a 'jack or beast with terror. It's kinda like Tough, you shouldn't count on it but it should make the other guy sweat (and if he doesn't take it into account and it breaks a unit, it can really swing the game for you). If you really want, you can actually bounce it between 'jacks (unlike superiority, which is too expensive for that I think) during a turn.....you could also let it expire, and re-cast it on the same 'jack to force another command check. Pretty useful, though we can't get up to as many shenanigans as the Coven can with it....actually, I may need a rules check on this one - could you Infernal Machine a 'jack with Bulldoze, engage a model, bump it out of melee, and then re-engage to force two command checks? I think that works, but I'm not sure.....

[Marth]

Tanks! Sounds like a solid plan.

Concious misquote, but that's what I read. And I agreed wholeheartedly!

[rivenwyrm]

could you Infernal Machine a 'jack with Bulldoze, engage a model, bump it out of melee, and then re-engage to force two command checks? I think that works, but I'm not sure.....

No, a model/unit can only force another specific model/unit to make a terror check once per turn.

As for the rest of the thread, I agree with MathPasta in the sense that I did expect them to bring a unique feel to the field, aside from just "being on a horsie", but I also really wanted them to be balanced. They gave us #2, I feel they didn't really give us #1. Karchev, eThags, Terminus and Kraye have just as much "field presence" as these casters. But then again, #1 was just a random quote some PP employee gave, so it's not really fair to expect much from it.

[Kuarnix]

No, a model/unit can only be force another specific model/unit to make a terror check once per turn.

I figured there was something like that, it seemed too stupid to be true

[kormas]

wow, i am amazed that this thread wasnt locked a while ago but to be fair everyone has managed to remain civil which is nice.

i dont really have a lot to contribute about Lvlad appart from the fact that i am definatly getting him as soon as he comes out. Evlad is by far my favourite caster, so hopefully lvlad will continue the trend (still havnt gotten pvlad yet...really dont like the model which is a shame :/ ) also uhlans look like they are going to be a lot of fun with him...and i may actually run more than just drago!

[quindraco]

Which do you think is the worst? pVlad's or something?

Karchev's. :-P I love the caster, but it's because I like his spell list and other abilities, NOT his underwhelming feat.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

Karchev's feat is underwhelming?!? How do you figure? I can tow-whip a jack with an open fist, feat, then have that jack charge and do a throw attack at the end of it! And still have room for 3 focus for additional attacks/boosts.

Under his feat, Behemoth can charge, 2-handed throw a jack right at the enemy caster (boosted attack, boosted damage), then lay two boosted pow 14's onto the knocked down caster.

A boosted POW 12 and 2 boosted POW 14s will leave most casters cratered if they aren't fully camping.

-Rick

[Sinsation]

Karchev's feat is underwhelming?!? How do you figure? I can tow-whip a jack with an open fist, feat, then have that jack charge and do a throw attack at the end of it! And still have room for 3 focus for additional attacks/boosts.

Under his feat, Behemoth can charge, 2-handed throw a jack right at the enemy caster (boosted attack, boosted damage), then lay two boosted pow 14's onto the knocked down caster.

A boosted POW 12 and 2 boosted POW 14s will leave most casters cratered if they aren't fully camping.

-Rick

How are you charging, and then throwing?

[Khador247]

wow, i am amazed that this thread wasnt locked a while ago but to be fair everyone has managed to remain civil which is nice.

Wow, if this is your definition of "civil" then I'd hate to see what you consider to be uncivilized.

[Tossy]

How are you charging, and then throwing?

I think he means power attack not charge attack

[Nebo]

Karchev's feat is underwhelming?!? How do you figure? I can tow-whip a jack with an open fist, feat, then have that jack charge and do a throw attack at the end of it! And still have room for 3 focus for additional attacks/boosts.

Under his feat, Behemoth can charge, 2-handed throw a jack right at the enemy caster (boosted attack, boosted damage), then lay two boosted pow 14's onto the knocked down caster.

A boosted POW 12 and 2 boosted POW 14s will leave most casters cratered if they aren't fully camping.

-Rick

Most of what you described are his spells. Other parts of what you described aren't legal and the remainder is just poor. Apart from the facing change, everything in that feat is a passive ability of eButcher - I call that underwhelming.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

How are you charging, and then throwing?

Interesting, I had to go back to the book to look this one up... It appears that I'm incorrect, I was under the belief that you could perform a power attack after charging, but it wouldn't get the bonus of being a "charge attack". If I'm reading this correctly now, it appears that if you charge and advance 3", even if you elect to make a special melee attack, that attack is still considered a charge attack, and thus not eligable to be a power attack.

My bust.

-Rick

[rivenwyrm]

Most of what you described are his spells. Other parts of what you described aren't legal and the remainder is just poor. Apart from the facing change, everything in that feat is a passive ability of eButcher - I call that underwhelming.

Don't forget Karchev's feat grants Pathfinder. So there's... one part.

[Nebo]

Don't forget Karchev's feat grants Pathfinder. So there's... one part.

My bad. It's slightly less underwhelming.

[Trihnicus]

Vlad3


Spear: Magical, Reach, Brutal Damage


So I looked at the link someone posted to a Lock and Load datasheet with a bunch of stats of the various models and their abilities/traits etc. and I ran across the description of Vlad's Spear.... and throughout every other description I've ever seen of the thing I've NEVER seen Brutal Damage. IS this true? IS he a weapon master with his bloody spear? I've *****ed a lot about him being very pillow fisted in comparison to his other incarnations during a run which he does not have access to small groups of living enemy infantry but This would change things significantly for me as his best attack wouldn't be a str 12 chain weapon when I'm not aware of any casters/locks having shields of any kind.

My stance was coming from that Vlad was historically a man who could kill things on his own whilst supporting his infantry and that this version was much worse at it but am I wrong?

[Evilmerlin]

Well, as far as I was told, that spoiler is accurate and he does have brutal damage. Just remember that brutal damage is only for the charge attack. So he'll hit really hard for the first one then go back to POW 12 + 2D6 there after.

[Trihnicus]

Why would he only get it on the charge attack? It does not appear to have the Lance special rule and there are any number of examples of cavalry that have spears with no Lance.

[Evilmerlin]

I think it should be brutal charge and not brutal damage.

[PG_Duckboy]

2d6+12/13 plus the amount of tokens he has accumulated in the current round.

[OldOneEye]

Looking at the card right now-- it's Brutal Charge on the spear.

[rivenwyrm]

Looking at the card right now-- it's Brutal Charge on the spear.

Which adds +2 to charge attack damage rolls. Keep in mind that he's also got +2 to hit on his charge attack since he's heavy cavalry.

[Trihnicus]

Alright thank you.... the world is sane again and Lvlad is back to being a pretty typical guy with some odd shenanigans and no I win buttons.

[PG_Draxos]

Alright thank you.... the world is sane again and Lvlad is back to being a pretty typical guy with some odd shenanigans and no I win buttons.

Sorry dude but PP isn't printing auto win buttons like Haley or gaspy anymore. Get over it.

[Trihnicus]

The list of models with feats and ability sets that are significantly game altering is far larger than that. It includes a rather significant portion of the game.... suggesting otherwise is.... odd. I wasn't even suggesting he belongs in that category... you need to relax my friend stress like that is going to make life far rougher and blinds you in very unfortunate ways.

I am in fact a little disappointed with him not being shiny enough to justify his financial cost at this point in my life but that has never altered my opinion that he lacks a built in win condition. This isn't to suggest that he can't win... the nature of the game itself defies that very overtly but aside from opening up an odd assassination vector with that 1 extra inch or having someone ignore a freestrike he isn't really enforcing anything. Unlike say Pbutcher who always knows that if he can open up a charge lane he can win the game Lvlad is relying on good game mechanics and wargaming basics to see himself through. and we will all wait for the day when someone left a group of infantry around their caster and he can flashing blade them all and pound a very carefully camped caster into his grave.

Honestly though before you play how many ways do you know how Lvlad is going to win? Starting out with Evlad I had several. I KNEW that I had this tool in my back pocket that was going to win me a game very shortly. I was right too. The same for Pbutcher and Karchev and both Irusks and both Sorschas and Old Witch and Pvlad... and while I wouldn't compare him to Zerkova because he can have a much stronger general effect on the game he is relying on her same win condition of good game basics and general Khadoran battle tactics. My problem is that every other warcaster we have also has that same win condition. They have it AND this other thing they do. It's still new maybe someone will figure out something that the naysayers haven't seen yet but I just don't have the ability to see what he does that makes me excited to buy and play him. I don't foresee glorious moments of triumph when my time building and painting him and hundreds of hours spent dreaming up battle plans and tactics pays out with an AHAH.

And as my primary inclination is into playing the bloodiest game I can with the army I have I just don't see what makes him special. And of all the people who scoff and say I'm being ridiculous I've not seen one who can show me either. His best defence seems to be "I'm sure he'll do something we just need to wait and see what it is".

[Shwan]

Competitive or not I recently bought 12 other horses to join him and with a Spriggan I will do my best to reenact the Battle of Minas Tirith.

[Kuarnix]

Competitive or not I recently bought 12 other horses to join him and with a Spriggan I will do my best to reenact the Battle of Minas Tirith.

Thread over, Shwan wins!

[PG_Draxos]

Thread over, Shwan wins!

No joke. Your my hero dude!

[Marth]

Thread over, Shwan wins!

Indeed! (10char)

[currentlyunknown]

The list of models with feats and ability sets that are significantly game altering is far larger than that. It includes a rather significant portion of the game.... suggesting otherwise is.... odd. I wasn't even suggesting he belongs in that category... you need to relax my friend stress like that is going to make life far rougher and blinds you in very unfortunate ways.

I am in fact a little disappointed with him not being shiny enough to justify his financial cost at this point in my life but that has never altered my opinion that he lacks a built in win condition. This isn't to suggest that he can't win... the nature of the game itself defies that very overtly but aside from opening up an odd assassination vector with that 1 extra inch or having someone ignore a freestrike he isn't really enforcing anything. Unlike say Pbutcher who always knows that if he can open up a charge lane he can win the game Lvlad is relying on good game mechanics and wargaming basics to see himself through. and we will all wait for the day when someone left a group of infantry around their caster and he can flashing blade them all and pound a very carefully camped caster into his grave.

Honestly though before you play how many ways do you know how Lvlad is going to win? Starting out with Evlad I had several. I KNEW that I had this tool in my back pocket that was going to win me a game very shortly. I was right too. The same for Pbutcher and Karchev and both Irusks and both Sorschas and Old Witch and Pvlad... and while I wouldn't compare him to Zerkova because he can have a much stronger general effect on the game he is relying on her same win condition of good game basics and general Khadoran battle tactics. My problem is that every other warcaster we have also has that same win condition. They have it AND this other thing they do. It's still new maybe someone will figure out something that the naysayers haven't seen yet but I just don't have the ability to see what he does that makes me excited to buy and play him. I don't foresee glorious moments of triumph when my time building and painting him and hundreds of hours spent dreaming up battle plans and tactics pays out with an AHAH.

And as my primary inclination is into playing the bloodiest game I can with the army I have I just don't see what makes him special. And of all the people who scoff and say I'm being ridiculous I've not seen one who can show me either. His best defence seems to be "I'm sure he'll do something we just need to wait and see what it is".

It's interesting that you put pButcher's win condition as open up a lane and charge. Vlad3 can literally do the same. I may be misremembering my cav rules, but if he gets a clear charge, he'll be able to:

-mount attack first (as it's an impact), boost + hand of fate gives fairly good odds of crit knockdown, pow 12 + 3d6 choose 2
-pow 14 + 4d6 choose 3
-pow 13 + 3d6 choose 2
-pow 12 + 3d6 choose 2 x 3/4 (depending if you upkept hand of fate elsewhere)

That's not too shabby. Yeah, he's going to struggle killing Terminus/Venethrax/Camped Butcher1/etc. But short of that? A warlock with arm 16 camping 3 transfers has to be scared. A warcaster camping at arm 20 takes 13 boxes of damage on roughly average rolls. Also, to immediately invalidate sidestep and flashing blade is silly. There's a reason Molik Karn is feared. While Vlad doesn't have that crazy of a threat range, double sidestep still gets him 17" non-linear. And Molik doesn't get the advantages of a cav charge.

[DemonCalibre]

Which do you think is the worst? pVlad's or something?

You will not speak ill of the Dark Princes feat.
His feat is crazy strong, even if it is only the the one jack that you bring. S&P + Feat + 3 focus means you Alpha Strike one of their heavies to death pretty consistently, which is insanely strong for Vlad, Vlad already can put you into the land of easy positive trades, if he picks up some freebies, His list snow balls out of control into complete domination.

While out of all the Legendary Casters, I am the least impressed with Vlad, this doesn't mean he is bad. I think he is just incomplete. His feat works on Uhlans, Drakhun, Fenris, Markov, and Himself, and the one jack he brings with him. This isn't great particularly since Markov Skornegies with his feat(Markov would be amazing, but if Warhead kills your target you don't sprint because it's not a melee attack, and you resolve warhead before the damage of the lance).

But this remains to be seen, Dash is a banana's spell in Khador, Infernal Machine is a Superiority that when it gets Purified, I can actually cast it again without punching myself in the balls first. Hand of Fate is strong, and Vlad has legit moves against infantry swarms. Right now my mind is don't worry about this feat except for himself. The thing is, that is actually a strong way to play. The person who can leverage their Warcasters personal power safely is a person generating advantage over someone who has a caster who can't do that, or can but less efficiently.

Think about it, if you save your feat so that Vlad can charge in, blow some dudes up with Flashing blade and retreat to safety, you might pick up 4-8 models for free, Vlad is no slouch in combat either so they don't have to be push overs, and blood quenched gives you some leeway if you don't get far enough away.

I think he is good, but incompete, I get a vibe that he really wants some of the stuff in the new book, Particularly Greylord Outriders, I mean just think about how bananas with him they would be if they merely got Battle Wizard, and Frost Bite. Do some math on the feat interaction, after you pick your jaw up, you will see what I am saying.

[quindraco]

It's interesting that you put pButcher's win condition as open up a lane and charge. Vlad3 can literally do the same. I may be misremembering my cav rules, but if he gets a clear charge, he'll be able to:

-mount attack first (as it's an impact), boost + hand of fate gives fairly good odds of crit knockdown, pow 12 + 3d6 choose 2
-pow 14 + 4d6 choose 3
-pow 13 + 3d6 choose 2
-pow 12 + 3d6 choose 2 x 3/4 (depending if you upkept hand of fate elsewhere)

That's not too shabby. Yeah, he's going to struggle killing Terminus/Venethrax/Camped Butcher1/etc. But short of that? A warlock with arm 16 camping 3 transfers has to be scared. A warcaster camping at arm 20 takes 13 boxes of damage on roughly average rolls. Also, to immediately invalidate sidestep and flashing blade is silly. There's a reason Molik Karn is feared. While Vlad doesn't have that crazy of a threat range, double sidestep still gets him 17" non-linear. And Molik doesn't get the advantages of a cav charge.

1) You cannot boost impact attacks, period, to hit or damage.
2) HoF does *not* drop the die of your choice, it drops the lowest die. This severely lessens its impact on crit chance.
3) You can't sidestep off of a flashing blade.

FYI.

[Trihnicus]

It's interesting that you put pButcher's win condition as open up a lane and charge. Vlad3 can literally do the same. I may be misremembering my cav rules, but if he gets a clear charge, he'll be able to:

-mount attack first (as it's an impact), boost + hand of fate gives fairly good odds of crit knockdown, pow 12 + 3d6 choose 2
-pow 14 + 4d6 choose 3
-pow 13 + 3d6 choose 2
-pow 12 + 3d6 choose 2 x 3/4 (depending if you upkept hand of fate elsewhere)

That's not too shabby. Yeah, he's going to struggle killing Terminus/Venethrax/Camped Butcher1/etc. But short of that? A warlock with arm 16 camping 3 transfers has to be scared. A warcaster camping at arm 20 takes 13 boxes of damage on roughly average rolls. Also, to immediately invalidate sidestep and flashing blade is silly. There's a reason Molik Karn is feared. While Vlad doesn't have that crazy of a threat range, double sidestep still gets him 17" non-linear. And Molik doesn't get the advantages of a cav charge.

/Stretch yawn ok lets do this. As Pbutcher has no additional ways to get someone to take a knee in front of him we can assume that your opponent got overconfident and left a camped caster in front of you 3 Transfer Warlock or armor 20 Warcaster sounds legit.. I think it would be a little unfair to use a Blood of Kings pVlad.... or an Epic Vlad with a few stacks on him or Terminus.... or Darius.... or Gorten. Or any number of High Def stacking casters or people with spells that are going to mess with his charge... (The Last Butch would have a problem with as well so we can leave that alone) Let us try PFeora... fairly common caster and a reasonably good matchup for LVlad as he is not as desperately in love with High Def Infantry as the rest of Khador.

Doing one without HOF first.

Defense 15 Armor 20. Vlad Charges aaaand impact hit misses (can't boost it). He swings his mighty spear and probably still boosts a 6 to hit because noone can afford to miss their charge attack. HITS! at dice -7 (spear+2 for charge). He gets about 3 damage in... not bad Flail time at dice -8 to hit we boost to hit (4 focus left) and at dice -8 to wound we will probably boost to damage too. HITS! and wounds 2 damage this time.. YAY!. it's his spear time... at dice -8 to hit and dice -9 to wound are we gonna bother boosting this thing? probably not.... HITS! and BOXCARS for damage. 3 damage. Out of Initial attacks and Feora is down 8. We buy an Attack with the Flail and boost to hit because we felt overly luck with the spear aaand boost to damage because we are still dice -8. HITS! and another 3 damage. 2 focus left so we buy our last flail attack. Boost to hit. HITS and BOXCARS for damage. Feora is left with 1 box left and proceeds to Murder Vlad so hard it becomes a joke in next weeks comic strip.

Lvlad just blew his entire wad on Feora and left her alive.... he got boxcars on two attacks one of which the odds said he shouldn't have even hit. He rolled straight odds for every other attack with no bad dice or letdowns.... he had all 7 focus and didn't require his feat to bounce off of anything. Butcher? yeah he killed her. So did both of the other Vlad's. so did many of the examples we can use of a caster who is good at killing other warcasters. Vlad shouldn't worry about this though because he is looking to bounce off a couple of things and then Flashing blade a group of infantry they graciously left in melee range of their caster with HOF up on himself (Mount attacks are not initials) He gets up to a rather nice +5 to damage because of Blood Quenched (remember he spent 4 focus and his initials on those spells to buff himself) He still requires boosting to hit which is going to be hard to do with 3 focus left... so if he buys his first attack and fully boosts it and rolls triple 6s for damage..... still can't kill her if He doesn't boost damage he buys 3 attacks and hits all three and rolls 8,9,9 for damage he STILL doesn't kill her.....

Lvlad is no "Molik Karn"... can barely pretend to be. And he needs a better situation than what I pointed out to get things done himself. Most likely he is going to rely on a HOF unit to kill things or Drago's axes or any number of other things... but the man is no assassin with Dash arguably he doesn't need to be but his primary schtick is getting Khador's Infantry to do the job with HOF and Dash as his support options.

[PG_General Nemo]

Vlad3 makes you work for your wins and play for some favorable attrition. This suits my style pretty well, and I imagine I will have success with him. Khador players don't need a cut and dry printed win condition. We have all the tools we need for victory in the composition of our force. He also has some random assassination potential that less experienced players may not see coming. I am stoked for Drago, Run Riot, and Charge of the Horse Lords making the dancing-est Berserker you ever did see.