So uh....Legendary casters...

[KhaosSpectyr]

soooo.... hes just another caster. hes not an auto win. hes not an auto lose. some like him. some dont. lets all chill; we're suposed to fight the other factions, not eachother

[RevolverAdamska]

IMHO, Great Prince of Umbrey just don't bring us something new, we are gonna spam IFpm , the Feat forcer us to deploy IfU.
i won't use more then 1 jack as always, and won't be Drago but a Spriggan, may be Conquest for 14 more ( or may be no) but imho this book mooch Khador a lot.
Once againe the feat could be amazing for jack, but our caster cannot support more then 1 cause of spell list, the game become anti-infatry and we get another infantry "buffer" caster, he is not bad at all , just, nothing new on the table, faster warriors, slightly better Cavarly for the feat, but we know the only way to deploy more then 1 cavalry units is the ... Tier... Sure one day the GreyL on Horse will come ... One day...
In my meta, nothing is changed, since MK II , playing Khador = pIrusk and OldW, sometime eSorscha.
Know Cryx get carnage , scything touch , mobility, and hex blast in once, has no price.

[ScottEBJJ]

IMHO, Great Prince of Umbrey just don't bring us something new, we are gonna spam IFpm , the Feat forcer us to deploy IfU.
i won't use more then 1 jack as always, and won't be Drago but a Spriggan, may be Conquest for 14 more ( or may be no) but imho this book mooch Khador a lot.
Once againe the feat could be amazing for jack, but our caster cannot support more then 1 cause of spell list, the game become anti-infatry and we get another infantry "buffer" caster, he is not bad at all , just, nothing new on the table, faster warriors, slightly better Cavarly for the feat, but we know the only way to deploy more then 1 cavalry units is the ... Tier... Sure one day the GreyL on Horse will come ... One day...
In my meta, nothing is changed, since MK II , playing Khador = pIrusk and OldW, sometime eSorscha.
Know Cryx get carnage , scything touch , mobility, and hex blast in once, has no price.

I find this post very amusing. Vlad brings nothing new to our faction, despite offering the first universal movement buff to our warrior models with immunity to free strikes and actual movement shenanigans. Forces you to take Iron Fang Uhlans how exactly? But you are going to complain about Gaspy3? A caster that's only unique ability for his faction is ranged upkeep removal, while ditching all of the defensive abilities that made his previous incarnations amazing. Oh, and lets not forget the non-feat he was saddled with.

[mcdermott]

He doesn't have to take uhlans...some jack with 2 initials, himself, and fenris/drakhun is plenty. I see him as our version of Grayle really.

[OldOneEye]

I honestly think he could replace Irusk2 as our top Man-o-War buddy. SPD 5 makes Shocktroopers and Demo Corps completely different units.

[Trihnicus]

Vlad3 makes you work for your wins and play for some favorable attrition. This suits my style pretty well, and I imagine I will have success with him. Khador players don't need a cut and dry printed win condition. We have all the tools we need for victory in the composition of our force. He also has some random assassination potential that less experienced players may not see coming. I am stoked for Drago, Run Riot, and Charge of the Horse Lords making the dancing-est Berserker you ever did see.

THIS! is exactly what I'm getting at! except my point is that many other casters gain just as much out of solid playing and this OTHER thing that they can do which you have in your back pocket. I'm always going to view Butcher as having a +1 over him... same with Evlad or either Irusk. I could not say he was bad.... but I gotta admit to a knee jerk reaction to people suggesting he's a Tier 1 caster or contends for best in Khador or any such nonsense. And he's going to add a TON of flavor to our less popular elements because he doesn't exactly support WGI as well as other lists do etc. He seems like one of the go to guys for Kommandos and MOW and jenky shenanigans with off beat Khador.... our perfect "Fun List" caster.

[RevolverAdamska]

I find this post very amusing. Vlad brings nothing new to our faction, despite offering the first universal movement buff to our warrior models with immunity to free strikes and actual movement shenanigans. Forces you to take Iron Fang Uhlans how exactly? But you are going to complain about Gaspy3? A caster that's only unique ability for his faction is ranged upkeep removal, while ditching all of the defensive abilities that made his previous incarnations amazing. Oh, and lets not forget the non-feat he was saddled with.

Ehm did you read the feat right? Do you see it talk about Cavarly and Jack ? You want to use the feat of your caster right?
If you're an hardcore, Khador player , i pray you to PM me whit your tips, cause i still cannot see a better melee units for us then the classic IFP, not even a way to deploy more then 1 jack whit 3Vald, always ready for tips and suggestion from best players around.

[Sinsation]

Doom reavers with speed 7 and immunity to free strikes? If they bunch up, berserker barrage! If they don't... charge past the front, then berserker barrage!

[Kurb]

Oh looks another thread for me to eyeroll in.
lVlad looks very solid to me. Some of you are spoiled on ironflesh and it shows drastically

[Mod_GoLu]

Oh looks another thread for me to eyeroll in.
lVlad looks very solid to me. Some of you are spoiled on ironflesh and it shows drastically

I know I'm spoiled by iron flesh; it's easy to be. That said, I'd prefer it if we kept this thread civil.

[PG_Draxos]

I know I'm spoiled by iron flesh; it's easy to be. That said, I'd prefer it if we kept this thread civil.

Yet you don't mention Scott...

[ScottEBJJ]

Yet you don't mention Scott...

I'll have you know I've never received any type of warning or censure on these boards actually.

[currentlyunknown]

1) You cannot boost impact attacks, period, to hit or damage.
2) HoF does *not* drop the die of your choice, it drops the lowest die. This severely lessens its impact on crit chance.
3) You can't sidestep off of a flashing blade.

FYI.

1/2. Yep, knew I forgot something in cav rules. Regardless, just being to throw 3 dice, even dropping one, ups your chances to 20-something %, versus 16 or so.

/Stretch yawn ok lets do this. As Pbutcher has no additional ways to get someone to take a knee in front of him we can assume that your opponent got overconfident and left a camped caster in front of you 3 Transfer Warlock or armor 20 Warcaster sounds legit.. I think it would be a little unfair to use a Blood of Kings pVlad.... or an Epic Vlad with a few stacks on him or Terminus.... or Darius.... or Gorten. Or any number of High Def stacking casters or people with spells that are going to mess with his charge... (The Last Butch would have a problem with as well so we can leave that alone) Let us try PFeora... fairly common caster and a reasonably good matchup for LVlad as he is not as desperately in love with High Def Infantry as the rest of Khador.

Doing one without HOF first.

Defense 15 Armor 20. Vlad Charges aaaand impact hit misses (can't boost it). He swings his mighty spear and probably still boosts a 6 to hit because noone can afford to miss their charge attack. HITS! at dice -7 (spear+2 for charge). He gets about 3 damage in... not bad Flail time at dice -8 to hit we boost to hit (4 focus left) and at dice -8 to wound we will probably boost to damage too. HITS! and wounds 2 damage this time.. YAY!. it's his spear time... at dice -8 to hit and dice -9 to wound are we gonna bother boosting this thing? probably not.... HITS! and BOXCARS for damage. 3 damage. Out of Initial attacks and Feora is down 8. We buy an Attack with the Flail and boost to hit because we felt overly luck with the spear aaand boost to damage because we are still dice -8. HITS! and another 3 damage. 2 focus left so we buy our last flail attack. Boost to hit. HITS and BOXCARS for damage. Feora is left with 1 box left and proceeds to Murder Vlad so hard it becomes a joke in next weeks comic strip.

Lvlad just blew his entire wad on Feora and left her alive.... he got boxcars on two attacks one of which the odds said he shouldn't have even hit. He rolled straight odds for every other attack with no bad dice or letdowns.... he had all 7 focus and didn't require his feat to bounce off of anything. Butcher? yeah he killed her. So did both of the other Vlad's. so did many of the examples we can use of a caster who is good at killing other warcasters. Vlad shouldn't worry about this though because he is looking to bounce off a couple of things and then Flashing blade a group of infantry they graciously left in melee range of their caster with HOF up on himself (Mount attacks are not initials) He gets up to a rather nice +5 to damage because of Blood Quenched (remember he spent 4 focus and his initials on those spells to buff himself) He still requires boosting to hit which is going to be hard to do with 3 focus left... so if he buys his first attack and fully boosts it and rolls triple 6s for damage..... still can't kill her if He doesn't boost damage he buys 3 attacks and hits all three and rolls 8,9,9 for damage he STILL doesn't kill her.....

Lvlad is no "Molik Karn"... can barely pretend to be. And he needs a better situation than what I pointed out to get things done himself. Most likely he is going to rely on a HOF unit to kill things or Drago's axes or any number of other things... but the man is no assassin with Dash arguably he doesn't need to be but his primary schtick is getting Khador's Infantry to do the job with HOF and Dash as his support options.

Just going to point out that HoF is functionally +2 to hit/damage (~1.96 IIRC). So yeah, I'd swing at -6 without boosting. And that first hit would do 6 pts of dmg. 2nd initial, let's say you boost to hit, and boost dmg for about 3 dmg. You can buy one more at pow 13, same thing. That comes out to 12 boxes of damage. A little above average rolling, or a couple stray hits from other sources, and a fairly tough caster is dead. The comparison to Molik was more from a threat/mobility standpoint, not purely damage dealt.

My point isn't that Vlad3 is a great assassin caster. It's that he does have an end game, and a personal assassination threat. The nice thing about that assassination threat is that it's an odd angles one, so affords you to pounce on miscalculations and mistakes far more easily than some casters.

[PG_Draxos]

For those who say "he can't kill butcher camping with iron flesh" tell me. Who can?

[TarlSS]

WHy hasn't anyone mentioned the fact that with Sprint/Side step you can get off two charges a game with cav?
Also Dash makes it possible to disengage while using ride by attack.

EDIT: Nevermind, you can't have Valachev+ Steelhead cav. Very sad.

Covering fire +Creeping barrage just makes the infantry murder worse.

[Mod_GoLu]

Yet you don't mention Scott...

I was replaying to Kurb, but mentioned no names. The request applies to the thread in general.

If you feel a post needs to be brought to a moderator's attention, please report it via the report button in the corner.

[hamicron]

For those who say "he can't kill butcher camping with iron flesh" tell me. Who can?

The Butcher, upkeeping Fury, charging on feat turn!

Also I am seriously stoked for when LVlad comes out. The crazy angles he can attack from and sheer quantity of attacks he can pump out will be amazing versus many infantry spam forces. Until the Greylord Light Cav appear I can't honestly see much point in running him with anything apart from Fenris, Drakhun and the Gun carriage. Uhlans are great but lack the accuracy or quantity of attacks to be worth fielding in great numbers.

[PG_Draxos]

The Butcher, upkeeping Fury, charging on feat turn!

Also I am seriously stoked for when LVlad comes out. The crazy angles he can attack from and sheer quantity of attacks he can pump out will be amazing versus many infantry spam forces. Until the Greylord Light Cav appear I can't honestly see much point in running him with anything apart from Fenris, Drakhun and the Gun carriage. Uhlans are great but lack the accuracy or quantity of attacks to be worth fielding in great numbers.

To be fair Butcher kills EVERYTHING.

And Vlad came out on Wednesday with the new book.

[PG_General Nemo]

THIS! is exactly what I'm getting at! except my point is that many other casters gain just as much out of solid playing and this OTHER thing that they can do which you have in your back pocket. I'm always going to view Butcher as having a +1 over him... same with Evlad or either Irusk. I could not say he was bad.... but I gotta admit to a knee jerk reaction to people suggesting he's a Tier 1 caster or contends for best in Khador or any such nonsense. And he's going to add a TON of flavor to our less popular elements because he doesn't exactly support WGI as well as other lists do etc. He seems like one of the go to guys for Kommandos and MOW and jenky shenanigans with off beat Khador.... our perfect "Fun List" caster.

I'd agree that he's not a tier 1 warcaster, but I wouldn't put him below a solid tier 2 in the right hands. He lacks denial tools, which is what puts him in this category, but he lacks nothing else. He has damage output and speed, and survivability is not a thing our faction is lacking on its own. I will be list one-ing this guy for a good while to see what he can do, though.
I'm not seeing the one-up in Butcher, but I understand what you mean.

[hamicron]

Well so he has! Hurrah!

[Boomfex]

For those who say "he can't kill butcher camping with iron flesh" tell me. Who can?

Garyth
pDenegra
3reoss
Reznik
pButcher
either Madrak
Barnabus
eStryker
Xerxies

[Boomfex]

I have been playing multipe proxy games with lVlad and he is more than legit. You are not shoehorned into taking ulhans. Out of his tier, they are probably a bad take.

The key to his list..Shooting! Remember the reach infanty that use to run to engage your WGDS/Nyss/Widowmakers/Rifle Corp.? Well Guess what? Doesn't work anymore.

Then with HoF they take a nice big chunck out of your opponent's caster/back line. Add in a dash of Fenris and a sprinckle of GBs and you have a nasty list.

The theme list is a little bonkers as well. But I will hold my tounge on that one.

[rivenwyrm]

Don't forget Kharchev, man.

[PG_Draxos]

Garyth
pDenegra
3reoss
Reznik
pButcher
either Madrak
Barnabus
eStryker
Xerxies

In order
Yes
No (can't damage when camping 5 and if)
Yes
see previous comment
nope. Can't damage
How?
true
Lol no. He needs his fest to.damage but can't hit him reliably.

[DemonCalibre]

I honestly think he could replace Irusk2 as our top Man-o-War buddy. SPD 5 makes Shocktroopers and Demo Corps completely different units.

This.

This is what I am really intrigued by the Great Prince. Shocks are crazy strong, but suffer from just being a tiny bit to slow in most scenarios to make it to the zone, in shield wall by turn 2. This is no longer a problem with the Great prince. If you go second, You get 5 five inch shield wall moves up, which puts you at the 20 inch mark which is most of the zones, and if you run turn one, but not all the way, you can Shield wall into all zones easily. If you go first you get a first turn run, and a 5 inch shield wall means the shocks are 22 out, which puts them in every zone in the Steam Roller.

This means the Shocks won't be late to the party, and it also counters their weakness to get pinned as with Dash they can just walk around the models pinning them, and you can use your reserve elements to mulch the pinning units, and keep your rock solid front line.

It's on my short list of things to try.

[Boomfex]

In order
Yes
No (can't damage when camping 5 and if)
Yes
see previous comment
nope. Can't damage
How?
true
Lol no. He needs his fest to.damage but can't hit him reliably.

Did you miss one?

pDenegra: Sacrafice and Arc node to stick Crippling grasp. Upkeep for free, Feat, Charge. Boost to hit initial. Butcher is now Def 10, Arm 19.

Reznik...just read his card man.

pButcher: A Pow 19 Weapon master cannot damage?

Barnibus auto hits the feat turn and then does have to get lucky.

Xerxies: Feat, Upkeep fury, Just hit twice.

Calculations made without War Dog, which was not mentioned in quoted post. But can be delt with by all listed casters.

[PG_Pyrodude32]

Eh - one of the balancing acts of warmahordes is the fact that you can look at essentially every model in this game and say - Yeah I can probably kill that this turn. The question is how much do you need to devote to killing it.

Butcher1 can die in one turn when he's on a focus camp along with upkeeping Iron Flesh - the question is does your opponent have enough to devote to it - and the second question is why are you playing Butcher1 in such a manner so that your opponent can drop him in a turn. Best strategy to kill Butcher1 - whittle him down a little then drop him the next turn.

Anyways - this is a tangent from the original topic of Double Epic casters...

[PG_Draxos]

On the pDenny situation you just mentioned: she is Focus 7 and Crippling Grasp cost 3. Since Butcher is def 17 she spends on to boost to hit. assuming she getts a 50/50 roll she has 3 focus left. After feat butcher is def 13 and she is mat 5. I will assume that she hits him needing an 8, which is possible, leaving her at dice - 7 she does 3 damage on average, buys, hits, boosts damage for another 3 and is sitting on one focus that she can buy with but not boost damage. Go Butcher

Reznik... Yeah if he feats he can yes. (I said Kreoss3 can't)

pButcher... I've already admitted pButcher can kill ANYTHING EVER

Barnabus if your plan involves the phrase "get lucky" then I don't believe it

Xerxis, assuming that he upkeeps fury from the turn before and charges with feat his first shot will net 8 damage. He has to boost to hit. Next attack he boost to hit and damage and does another 8. Buys and can't boost. If marketh is around then he will have the fury he needs to do it but that is assuming other models which wasn't mentioned.

[mcdermott]

Yeah if you can assume other models i just say lol aiming peiryss.

[PG_Draxos]

The thing about this argument is that both Denny and Xerxes need to feat to kill butcher, which they won't have late game. Butcher always has focus and iron flesh.


(If I end butcher within 10 on eiryss please shoot me since I'm apparently retarded)

[mcdermott]

12 actually.

14 with Rahn or another caster with tk

16 with ravynn

Or any MHA who manages to roll 18+ on its charge attack.

But this is all pretty tangetical to the fact that HOF + feat turn + fortunate positioning of enemy models (we DO got a ton of jacks with bulldoze after all) means its just a matter of how many people he chews through sidestepping his way up to butcher that determines if he can kill him or not.

[PG_Samalefic]

If you're casting snipe on Eiryss... you're doing it wrong.