The Stormwall: Is Cygnar the new Cryx?

[@Kriegsspiele]

Following the hashtag #ETC2012 on Twitter there seems to be one topic only: the Stormwall. - The Stormwalls to be serious because obviously they're played in pairs and there's a rumour that the whole team Belgium plays Stormwalls only (that'd be 8 in total): http://j.mp/Etc2012

For sure: the situation at the European Team Challenge 2012 (216 players with full 4 man teams) is very special. Right now players have access to the Stormwall only. There've been lots of complaints about this situation and players of other factions wanted to see the Stormwall banned completely.

Still, is Cygnar going to be the new Cryx? "Colossals killed the infantrymachine star?" The ETC will start today and we'll get lots of interesting stats and battle reports about the effectiveness of Cygnar with 2x Stormwall in a highly competitive setting soon.

In my opinion one thing is already crystal clear: Colossals will change "the meta" more than any other evolution has (think Wrath). If you like it or not: you will have to think about dealing with 1 or obviously even 2 Colossals (Stormwalls only?) on a regular basis. So even if you're not going Colossals in your lists, you'll still have to change them most likely. eEiryss might become a duty for Warmachine players for example etc. pp.

UPDATE #1: The (Belgian) StormWALL is true...



UPDATE #2: The full collection of Collossals at the ETC 2012...



UPDATES #3, #5, #9 from Norbert Brunhuber: Found 4 more elsewhere. Please recalculate! ... Actually 5 more. ‪#etc2012‬

27 Stormwalls at 216 players = 12.5% - or without the 7 known pairs:
20 Stormwalls at 216 players = 9.26%

UPDATES #4, #6-12 - The Stormwall Teams with their final placements:
- Team Sprocket (#10) is the Belgian Team with the 8 Stormwalls
(Darius, n3mo, pHaley and pStryker)
- Dooleys Disciples (#13) had 1 Stormwall (Haley1)
- Team Susan (#15) had 2 Stormwalls (Nemo2)
- Team Epic Flail (#20) have 1 each so 4 in total
(Nemo3, Stryker2, Caine1, Haley2.)
- Team Netherlands (#21) also has a player fielding double Stormwalls
- Devil's Dice (#25) had one stormwall in a eHaley list
- Epic Slayer (#39) had one player with 2xStormwalls under eHaley
- Kernow Kings (#42) had a Stormwall run by pCaine

Aggregated and my final thoughts regarding the Stormwall/s: http://j.mp/Stormwalls

[Minotaur]

You make valid points, but PP can only release models as and when they can.

Regarding the ETC, if people are into that, and care about the rankings, it is up to the community to petition event organiserss to make those rules be included in the rules packs.

Personally, I think the sentiment of 'Cygnar being the new Cryx' is a little over dramatic, but on the other hand, if your an ETC die hard, I can understand why one would want a level playing field. If you go down this road, then why not ban anything in a book like Wrath say, until all models are released, so everybody has a fair pick of the equivalent models released across the range.

[joelker41]

Umm...no.

It takes a lot more than 1 model in a middle of the pack faction to drastically change the overall game balance faction wise.

[PG_Alviaran]

What do you think Eiryss will do that makes her so necessary to stop these things? She runs in and gets squished the next turn. She buys a turn with her life at best. She can strip upkeeps, but I'd be more worried about taking Gorman. Get him close and he truly neutralizes a colossal dead in its tracks.

And not really. I think people are for one thing really excited about the new toys. On the other hand, some are trying to push the perceived advantage Cygnar has right now since they are the only ones with colossals. I got to kill a few at a convention in June and I have to say, meh. Yeah, they need to be planned for and that certain factions/lists need to plan more particularly to face such high health, heavy armoured targets, but this won't put a target on Cygnar's back for too long. Everyone is going to be grumbling about them but given how I saw final rounds shaking out at Die Con, Stormwalls =/= automatic victory.

And new Cryx. Ha. I thought Cryx handed off the hate stick to Legion a while back. Or did Legion give it back until the Naga releases?

[Drzombieface]

Cygnar... the new Cryx?


lolno/thread

[kolonelk]

And will there still be cries of DOOOOM if a non-Cygnar faction wins the ETC?

[Thadrin]

I am merely delighted to note that double Stormwall lists are now called "Basil" lists.
(a nickname which of course could also apply to Mulg, due to his tendency to hit things with a tree).

* Note: at least part of this post may make no sense to non-Brits.

[Grimz]

Being a puritan cryx player I will first take a look at how I can deal with these so called winbuttons in faction before taking in mercenarys.

I'm thinking ARM debuff spell, apply banes and call me in the morning

[@Kriegsspiele]

You make valid points, but PP can only release models as and when they can. Regarding the ETC, if people are into that, and care about the rankings, it is up to the community to petition event organiserss to make those rules be included in the rules packs.

This is not at all an offence against PP or the organiser for allowing Colossals (or even Wrath): I've just read a lot of tweets of the ETC players and started rethinking some of my personal considerations regarding Colossals and the Stormwall in particular.

It takes a lot more than 1 model in a middle of the pack faction to drastically change the overall game balance faction wise.

That's what I think. Well, at least it's what I've thought before. Now I'm at least not sure for how long Cygnar (and subsequently Khador and Cryx) could become some kind of Colossal spammer at tournaments, changing the faction balance for a long(er) time (if it pays out).

What do you think Eiryss will do that makes her so necessary to stop these things?

Reducing ARM 22/21 to 19 seems to be crucial to me if you need to take a Stormwall down?

And not really. I think people are for one thing really excited about the new toys. On the other hand, some are trying to push the perceived advantage Cygnar has right now since they are the only ones with colossals.

That's exactly what I thought when reading the tweets: obviously the Cygnar players feel an advantage (while the other faction's players feel a disadvantage) but I'm not sure if 1. it'll really pay out (we'll know about it on Sunday evening) and 2. for how long this will last?

And new Cryx. Ha. I thought Cryx handed off the hate stick to Legion a while back. Or did Legion give it back until the Naga releases?

And will there still be cries of DOOOOM if a non-Cygnar faction wins the ETC?

Anyway: Cygnar might become one of the most played factions on tournaments at least during the next time. I'm not at all saying they'll become the predetermined winners! I can't see any faction that's not able to deal with a Stormwall.

[Gothgar]

All I'm saying is un nerf eAsphyxious' feat back to Incorp and I wont mine seeing two Stormwalls all day.

[sepher32]

They are not all that hard to kill. Particularly when they're expected and you meta against them. It is a useful tool. Not a game breaker.

[Drakor]

Yeah colossals really aren't too hard to kill, and while 4 covering templates from two of the may seem like a lot, their bases are huge, literally, its still really easy to get a bunch of weapon masters to connect. If you happen to have trouble with killing two, just go for the assassination.

[FearLord]

I'm at the ETC and playing Cygnar - without the Stormwall (because I haven't built it, let alone painted it...) - my team (Shenanigans) are on the top table after round 1 without any, and we're playing against another team without any in round 2... So far, Stormwalls (of which there are quite a few here...) are not on top...

[PG_Alviaran]

Reducing ARM 22/21 to 19 seems to be crucial to me if you need to take a Stormwall down?

And what did people do about Defender's Warded Avatars before? Or Terminus? You NEED to be able to deal with those things. This is just the same with more health. And SR2012 has already been doing it for 6+ months now: character restrictions. eEiryss is still popular in a lot of cases I think because she is overall useful. But I do not think she is utterly required to deal with these things.

And what will you do about the massive regenerating Mountain King when he is expected to sit at ARM21 all the time? If you can't one round him, he will be back to full health. Yes yes, I've heard all the complaints about him and I agree with some of them. But if things with piles of health and low 20s ARM are a problem, they will likely be no matter which factions have them.

Also, it took two turns but I killed a Stormwall under Arcane Shield with a pBaldur theme list. A list which is a bit...light on hitting power overall compared to my other usual cohort (Kromac and his puppies, which managed to kill two Stormwalls, one at ARM21, in back to back turns). It can be done. You should be ready for that.

That's exactly what I thought when reading the tweets: obviously the Cygnar players feel an advantage (while the other faction's players feel a disadvantage) but I'm not sure if 1. it'll really pay out (we'll know about it on Sunday evening) and 2. for how long this will last?

Yeah, I think it is both an advantage and Cygnar players wanting to play with their cool new toy while no one else can for the time being. Just a bit longer and we will see the Conquests showing up. How long until you hit the double Conquest list? Ugh. I'm not looking forward to it. I definitely think I can kill it, but man is it gonna' be rough.

(And again, no arguments from anyone about how bad such a list is. Like a M:tG meta where a bad deck can win, if people aren't prepared and it is PERFECTLY situated to mess with the current meta, even a bad whatever in the hands of a competent player can ride its way to the top. People should be ready for it somewhere along the way. How long until a really good player gets blindsided by something weird and totally unbalanced round one of a major tournament and gets knocked out by someone who goes 1-X for the rest of the day?)

Anyway: Cygnar might become one of the most played factions on tournaments at least during the next time. I'm not at all saying they'll become the predetermined winners! I can't see any faction that's not able to deal with a Stormwall.

I can see some having trouble or feeling locked in to certain choices to have any hope.

If people were tired of Stalker-Gorax combos in Circle lists already, I think it will only get worse.

Mercs are going to be a touch salty as they get locked in to needing certain elements since outside of Damiano, flanking Steelhead Cav, Forgeguard and Galleon (oh, poor Merc players being encouraged to take their colossal! ), I don't know what they can do to a high ARM, high health monstrosity. Their jacks all top out at PS17 right?

And woe befall the Minion player who gets locked into his gator list.

So I expect while people get used to them and explore more of their options, you can expect a lot of "old standbys" to make the rounds because you NEED to be able to deal with these or get knocked out of a tournament early.

[@Kriegsspiele]

First things first: I'm not at all complaining about Colossals (or the Stormwall in particular), nor do I think that Colossals breaks the game. The only thing I'm stating is that Colossals will indeed change the overall meta more than any other release has done before. The ETC 2012 feels like proving this already if it's true that there are 30+ players (of 216) with 1 or 2 Colossals each.

And what did people do about Defender's Warded Avatars before? Or Terminus? You NEED to be able to deal with those things. This is just the same with more health.

Absolutely. But the probability is increasing because of Colossals. That's why I think that eEiryss (besides other and other faction based models!) might become a duty and change the meta even more.

Just a bit longer and we will see the Conquests showing up. How long until you hit the double Conquest list? Ugh. I'm not looking forward to it. I definitely think I can kill it, but man is it gonna' be rough.

For sure! And this will just increase the probability of high ARM models with lots of boxes even more, won't it?

I can see some having trouble or feeling locked in to certain choices to have any hope.

That'd be the worst case scenario but I think people will find ways of dealing with Colossals with more experience.

I'm at the ETC and playing Cygnar - without the Stormwall (because I haven't built it, let alone painted it...) - my team (Shenanigans) are on the top table after round 1 without any, and we're playing against another team without any in round 2... So far, Stormwalls (of which there are quite a few here...) are not on top...

I'm really looking forward to read more insights about this topic and the whole ETC! Good luck for you and your team!

[gr31]

I don't have a Stormwall and I don't plan on getting one. I prefer playing at 35 points or less, and it isn't easy to do that with an expensive ($ and points) model like the Stormwall.

[Thadrin]

Mercs are going to be a touch salty as they get locked in to needing certain elements since outside of Damiano, flanking Steelhead Cav, Forgeguard and Galleon (oh, poor Merc players being encouraged to take their colossal! ), I don't know what they can do to a high ARM, high health monstrosity. Their jacks all top out at PS17 right?
.

Driller + SoG is (iirc) more than that.
Gorten FTW.
Shame his feat will only debuff rather than shift one of those things.

[John of Arc]

I don't have a Stormwall and I don't plan on getting one. I prefer playing at 35 points or less, and it isn't easy to do that with an expensive ($ and points) model like the Stormwall.

I feel very comfortable playing a 25 point eHaley list with a Stormwall, Lancer, Squire and Jr. or 3 Stormsmiths. I also feel comfortable with a 25 point N3mo list that's literally nothing but him, Finch, a Stormwall and a Stormstrider. I'm not the same with Conquest, but Stormwall's covering fire templates and the ability to drop annoyingly-placed pods makes me feel very safe without an infantry screen in front of him.

[King-of-Storms]

And will there still be cries of DOOOOM if a non-Cygnar faction wins the ETC?

Ok I know I'm a light weight and easily buzzed but has there been an established status quo of Cygnar being harped on being the most underpowered faction and now you're saying Cygnar is overpowered by this one model? I would really like to see the Cygnar win the ETC and rub it in those smug Khadorian faces... (Not including Hordes at this jecture, I don't keep up with them)

I am merely delighted to note that double Stormwall lists are now called "Basil" lists.
(a nickname which of course could also apply to Mulg, due to his tendency to hit things with a tree).

* Note: at least part of this post may make no sense to non-Brits.

I think that's one of John Cleese's better roles in comedy. Unless you're talking about the St. Joseph's Wort then you've lost me.

Before I take this thread on a further tanget...has the Conquest and other Colossals been overshadowed just a tad? Because I'm really bracing myself for the "Stormwall high" to abate to give way to the Conquest and the Kraken. Or am I going about this the wrong way?

[Bladestorm]

Personally I think that Stormwall and Galleon are the two big game-changers.

Stormwall because it brings the Cyclone's excellent covering fire templates without being a slouch at shooting/hitting things for it's cost as well as being the best target yet for a fair few of Cygnar's many support spells.

Galleon because it is the only colossal effectively able to shoot and melee in the same turn, the only colossal with what amounts to a 10" melee range (albeit not 100% reliably), an amazing target for the many merc support abilities/spells/animi and because it raises merc's base jack P+S from 17 to 21.

[Thadrin]

Mulg Fawlty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78b67l_yxUc

Stormwall Brush: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_Brush

[kolonelk]

Ok I know I'm a light weight and easily buzzed but has there been an established status quo of Cygnar being harped on being the most underpowered faction and now you're saying Cygnar is overpowered by this one model? I would really like to see the Cygnar win the ETC and rub it in those smug Khadorian faces... (Not including Hordes at this jecture, I don't keep up with them)

I'd love to see Cygnar win it, but I'd like to not see endless crying afterwards if Stormwall features amongst the winning list(s). Being the first available in the competitive environment, it's going to make waves. But in time it will all even out and then we can look forward to DOOM over huge-based casters :P

[scout's honor]

The Stormwall isn't just a very good model in terms of its rules, it's also a very goodlooking and exciting model to have in your lists. If the Konquest was released first instead, I'm sure you'd see comparable numbers of them popping up at the ETC.

Complaints? Demands to ban this model from the event? I'd have expected better from Warmachine players, to be honest.

As for Cygnar becoming the new Cryx? Please. And even if that were the case, so what? If there is going to be an alledgedly overpowered faction, better the factions take turns at this than that it's always the same one.

[CaladanCid]

Banning a model from a tournament? That is a pretty low level of sportsmanship right there. This is WM/H not 40k (not knocking the game system but rather the silly customs that have sprung up), if a model comes out you deal with it because more likely than not you already have the tools and just need to think.

[@Kriegsspiele]

The true (Belgian) Stormwall:

The Stormwall isn't just a very good model in terms of its rules, it's also a very goodlooking and exciting model to have in your lists. If the Konquest was released first instead, I'm sure you'd see comparable numbers of them popping up at the ETC.

For sure. That's why I think there'll be a lot more Colossals on tournaments as soon as they're released. The meta will change significantly.

Complaints? Demands to ban this model from the event? I'd have expected better from Warmachine players, to be honest.

True. I've been wondering a lot about the discussions in preparation of the ETC. If the rules wouldn't be public I'd probably back the complaints, but they are indeed public so there's no need to moan.

[sourclams]

There will be lists against which double Stormwall dominates, and there will be lists that crop up as counters to them. What does double stormwall do against, for example, eKaya? 100% stealth, high ARM that shrugs at eleaps, and stones+teleport out-threats any of their melee.

Stormwalls hit Warmachine pretty hard due to being good infantry blockers and good jack control via disruptions, but most of the Hordes beast bricks can get a model into melee and break down the Wall once they do.

[sourclams]

There will be lists against which double Stormwall dominates, and there will be lists that crop up as counters to them. What does double stormwall do against, for example, eKaya? 100% stealth, high ARM that shrugs at eleaps, and stones+teleport out-threats any of their melee.

Stormwalls hit Warmachine pretty hard due to being good infantry blockers and good jack control via disruptions, but most of the Hordes beast bricks can get a model into melee and break down the Wall once they do.

[profparm]

My problems with Stormwalls is that they have the eggs-basket problem (although less at 50 points), but when 8 of them are taking up 200 of your points, well, the lists that contain hard counters will REALLY counter hard. And maybe that's just my experience from GW games, where a giant death star or point sink can work in your advantage over half the time but have hard counters that just remove you from contention, making staying at the undefeated table much more difficult. I think it's an amazingly difficult army for anyone who hasn't planned for it, but, seriously, how can anyone NOT have planned for it at this time?

Also, if Octo-Stormwall takes down a tournament, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Just so long as they aren't winning every single tournament, something it seems like no list in this game does all the time consistently. You know, because of game balance and all that.

Stormwall Brush: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_Brush

Suddenly the BBC show Mongrels makes so much more sense....

[msele]

General Stormwallace (name given to it at the lgs) is not that hard to kill.... He needs to be dealt with right away yes but not hard to kill. Even with mechanics working away at him he still goes down pretty easy.

[Rynth]

Cygnar the new Cryx?
Well Soles did faction hop over to them a year or so ago.

[West996]

I have questioned the double StormWall's balance over all and only time and thousands of games will truly tell if that is actually an issue or not.

I can see how there would be some concern about facing them in a tournament when you don't yet have access to your own Colossi, but PP did state that you don't need to field a Colossal to beat one. You may have to change your game plan a little bit, you may even have to adjust your lists a little bit, but they shouldn't be auto win if they are truly balanced.

I am actually glad that the Storm Wall has been released first because there is going to be a lot of attention on it, and it alone and personally I think it needs that because if any of the Colossi seem like they may be a little strong it is the Storm Wall.

I don't think you would hear half the out cry we are hearing now from ETC if the Kraken was released first or the Judicator.

I agree with the above poster that stated that this double Storm Wall combo is going to give WM players a much harder time then it will Hordes.

If double StormWall players think they are going to go in and dominate I think they are in for a surprise when they come up against Skorne, Legion and even Circle.

It is really only the infantry heavy Warmachine armies that have something to fear because the StormWall can both mulch and defend against infantry as well as disrupt their jacks. Neither of those things work as well against hordes.

My prediction is there will be a Hordes winner for ETC. I think that those StormWalls will effect the out come but not by taking the tournament by storm..(Yup, I went there.) I think they are going to beat out some Warmachine lists that would of had a better chance facing the top hordes players but will be knocked out of the running early if they run into a bad Storm Wall match up. Resulting in a Hordes win.

[Blighted Tyrant]

My issue with this is that Stormwall was allowed when it is the only Colossal on general release, sure you can wave a SR2012 quote at me but I'm just going to tell you I don't care. It alters the power curve massively, and when you have been perfecting an all comers list for months only to have it stomped by double Stormwall because you hadn't factored in the epic level of toolery involved in taking 2 Colossal's, I just think Maelstrom made a big mistake in not attempting to balance the scales.

[Blighted Tyrant]

- It seems the doubling up issue isn't just restricted to Stormwalls -

[West996]

- It seems the doubling up issue isn't just restricted to Stormwalls -

I would argue that StormWalls gains are exponential when taking multiples.

The synergy with the pods and Storm Smiths alone give the Storm Wall a larger benefit when doubling up then any other Colossal. The fact that you can drop two pods in one turn and triangulate using 3 points with multiple Storm Smiths puts Storm Walls over the top when fielding more then one. No other Colossal benefits this way.

[Blighted Tyrant]

I would argue that StormWalls gains are exponential when taking multiples.

The synergy with the pods and Storm Smiths alone give the Storm Wall a larger benefit when doubling up then any other Colossal. The fact that you can drop two pods in one turn and triangulate using 3 points with multiple Storm Smiths puts Storm Walls over the top when fielding more then one. No other Colossal benefits this way.

I was referring to my double post, but that is a good point well made.

[scout's honor]

My issue with this is that Stormwall was allowed when it is the only Colossal on general release, sure you can wave a SR2012 quote at me but I'm just going to tell you I don't care. It alters the power curve massively, and when you have been perfecting an all comers list for months only to have it stomped by double Stormwall because you hadn't factored in the epic level of toolery involved in taking 2 Colossal's, I just think Maelstrom made a big mistake in not attempting to balance the scales.

Where should Maelstrom have drawn the line, specifically? One Colossal available is apparently not fair, but what about two? Or three? Or all of the Colossals, but none of the Gargantuans? Should Colossals be disallowed at GenCon and PAX next month?

A model is tournament-legal the moment it is released. It's that simple. My 2 cents: it should stay that simple. If I played Cygnar and had a Stormwall, I'd want to play with it. Can you blame me? PP releases models monthly, spread out over the different factions. That's just how it is. Sometimes you get your new shiny just before an event, sometimes only after.

To be honest, your issue seems to be much more with the Stormwall being alledgedly OP than with the fact that just one faction has a Colossal available for the ETC. Perceived power problems however should never be a reason to disallow a model at an event.

[West996]

I was referring to my double post, but that is a good point well made.

Lol oh, my bad. It is a little early here for me to get subtle humor.

[Blighted Tyrant]

Where should Maelstrom have drawn the line, specifically? One Colossal available is apparently not fair, but what about two? Or three? Or all of the Colossals, but none of the Gargantuans? Should Colossals be disallowed at GenCon and PAX next month?

A model is tournament-legal the moment it is released. It's that simple. My 2 cents: it should stay that simple. If I played Cygnar and had a Stormwall, I'd want to play with it. Can you blame me? PP releases models monthly, spread out over the different factions. That's just how it is. Sometimes you get your new shiny just before an event, sometimes only after.

Usually I would agree with you, in fact I actually do agree with you. However as everyone who has seen a Colossal on the table top or even read the rules will tell you (and I am not referring to you as a individual I am merely turning a phrase) that they are game altering pieces, to allow one faction access to this with the knowledge it is going to be abused in my opinion is a poor move. If all 6 of the Warmachine Colossal's had been available or even half (which in itself would make the double Stormwall trolling hard lists, less prevalent) that I would have less of an issue with it.

TL : DR - My issue is with the organiser, not Stormwall or the SR2012 rulings towards new miniatures.

[scout's honor]

However as everyone who has seen a Colossal on the table top or even read the rules will tell you (and I am not referring to you as a individual I am merely turning a phrase) that they are game altering pieces, to allow one faction access to this with the knowledge it is going to be abused in my opinion is a poor move.

I play Khador. My (admittedly limited) proxying experience tells me the Konquest is not a game altering model. I don't think the problem stems from Colossals as a new type of model, I'm convinced that whatever problem there is stems from individual models of the Colossal type - in this case the Stormwall - and if EOs were to ban models based on the possibility they might be broken, that'd be plenty of reason for me not to attend their events. That's a slippery slope that can only end badly.

[Blighted Tyrant]

In a one list format (which the ETC is), you have to take an all comers list, which means anyone who has decided to leave his sportsmanship at home and bring two Stormwalls along is going to run rough shot over you and make the game a pointless unfun waste of time.

In a single list format the Colossal's are radically game altering as anyone who hasn't built a list to deal with them (all comers) will suffer because of it.

In multiple list formats, I have no issue with them. There is scope to take builds dedicated to cracking high armour and high box lists.