The Stormwall: Is Cygnar the new Cryx?

[tjhairball]

So how many Cygnar players didn't use any Stormwalls?

[FearLord]

So how many Cygnar players didn't use any Stormwalls?

There were several (including myself) running Cygnar without Stormwalls - we also played 3 teams with a Cygnar player without a Stormwall. There were more I saw dotted around but I didn't actually have time to count that sort of thing...

[Carnage]

I'd love to see Cygnar win it, but I'd like to not see endless crying afterwards if Stormwall features amongst the winning list(s). Being the first available in the competitive environment, it's going to make waves. But in time it will all even out and then we can look forward to DOOM over huge-based casters :P

Do we even know of any other than Lylith 3?

[PG_Tommeh]

The 2 stormwalls closest to the camera in the first picture are mine, the other 6 are my teammates'. I played Darius and my teammates played n3mo, pHaley and pStryker (in that order, down the line in the picture).

We played it as a stunt, well knowing it could go great or horribly wrong. In the end we managed to win 4 out of our 6 rounds for a 10th place.
The only 2 lists of those 4 we would consider running double 'walls in, for a normal tournament would be Darius and pHaley, though they are almost surely better when balanced around one 'wall.

More details to come, but I just arrived home and there's food about.

[Aethelred]

Updated the Stormwall list: only 7 Stormwalls left to identify. Thanks!

And you really faced 4 Stormwalls during the tournament!? You might be one of the world's best trained anti-Stormwall players right now.



Which scenarios did you play against the Stormwalls?

I played against Stormwalls in three of the six games, one of which was a double list. All three great games, which surprised me slightly, as I was expecting a dull game with so few models on the table.

I won Demolition when I assassinated Caine having already destroyed his Stormwall, scoring a CP following assassination. Game 2 was against the double list and pHaley, Flag too Far. He played his Stormwalls in a pair on my flags shielding Haley and basically cast Temporal Barrier and "get off my lawn". I didn't do a point of damage to either Collosal, but eventually got the angle on Haley for a spell assassination attempt followed by a venator CRA. Third game was Close Quarters against pCaine again and two units of long gunners. I damaged the Stormwall with a Molik charge which took off one side and a bit more, and at that point it wasn't a huge threat so I went for assassination again when the opening presented itself.

We tried (and succeeded) to get me against the Stormwalls as Skorne do pretty well against them in general and my team mates weren't too keen. In the final round we played Epic Flail and so each had to fight one, and killed two out of four, even with lists not designed to be pure anti-armour. I like Stormwalls, I think they're a terrific addition to Cygnar, but in one list environments such as this one I think there will be a LOT of Collosals (of all flavours) next year.

[Lamoron]

I don't mind a single Stormwall. I went up against them in two separate games (one in each) and won both games. In the first against Tom from Epic Flail I ignored it and took the hits (Nemo3 really hurts btw) but managed to push my way to a victory with Terminus (sadly the rest of the team didn't), and in the second my opponent was missing a backup heavy hitter so I brought the Stormwall down with Terminus and Dark Shroud support.

Edit: wrong information I still think double Stormwalls is a hardcore build, but I'm only really scared of them with pHaley and incidentally that's exactly who Brett used to ROFLSTOMP through the ETC (though with just one of them). Stormwall is fine with all the other casters, but pHaley running them is a nightmare.

[tensteam]

So how many Cygnar players didn't use any Stormwalls?

Our team played against teams that finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 11th and 40th and we didn't face a single Stormwall.

[PG_princessprettyposies]

Played against Elliots (Epic Slayer) 2 Stormwall list in the Hardcore on the friday. Put bloodmark on one (the one without arcane shield) & had 3 +2Str gators charge it & bring it down to 1 hit point (epic dice rolling!) it was nuts!

[PG_princessprettyposies]

Our team played against teams that finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 11th and 40th and we didn't face a single Stormwall.

That was us :-) Yous get home safely?

The man of the match agains the storm walls was the agonizers, its amazing to watch a 2 point model shut down 38points of enemy models! :-)

[tensteam]

That was us :-) Yous get home safely?

Yeah arrived just a few hours ago, survived also the traffic on the wrong side of the road!

Thanks for the games to all of you. We had a great time (I played your Cryx Philip)! Hopefully we'll see ya later at some point!

About Stormwalls I think that the good players will find tricks to take them down with normal balanced lists. And I guess the tourney results show it. But on the other hand what if the top teams had Stormwalls...

[@Kriegsspiele]

We had an 8 player SR recently where three of the players turned up with stormwalls Friend was going to take two, but decided to stick to one...

I'm pretty sure that especially smaller tournaments will regularly see 25-50% players with Stormwalls pretty soon - and even more with the other Colossals released. But also big tournaments will see numbers way beyond the 10% at the ETC 2012 as soon as Conquest and Kraken have been released.

Those people who still say they will simply ignore Colossals because "nobody will play" them and "the meta won't change" are simply ignoring the new reality as much as those who want to "ignore Colossals on the table". Colossals are here to stay: play them, deal with them, but you really shouldn't ignore the new meta - just to start moaning afterwards.

I played against 4 Stormwalls too (Sprocket and Epic Slayer). In pairs. In consecutive games. I wasn't impressed initially but i do grudgingly admit that it was a fun experience (I suspect my opponents had quite a lot to do with that though ).

If I'd have been at the ETC, I'd have loved to play against all those Stormwalls played by top European players.

There were several (including myself) running Cygnar without Stormwalls - we also played 3 teams with a Cygnar player without a Stormwall. There were more I saw dotted around but I didn't actually have time to count that sort of thing...

Hopefully Maelstrom will put up additional stats like: overall faction and warcaster distribution, per player results etc. pp.

The 2 stormwalls closest to the camera in the first picture are mine, the other 6 are my teammates'. I played Darius and my teammates played n3mo, pHaley and pStryker (in that order, down the line in the picture).

Thanks. Added these informations to the inital post.

Did Darius, especially the feat pay out over all of your games? If I would face Darius I wouldn't attack the Stormwall at all if I couldn't take it down entirely!?

We played it as a stunt, well knowing it could go great or horribly wrong. In the end we managed to win 4 out of our 6 rounds for a 10th place. The only 2 lists of those 4 we would consider running double 'walls in, for a normal tournament would be Darius and pHaley, though they are almost surely better when balanced around one 'wall. More details to come, but I just arrived home and there's food about.

Really looking forward to read a full battle report of you and your mates!

I like Stormwalls, I think they're a terrific addition to Cygnar, but in one list environments such as this one I think there will be a LOT of Collosals (of all flavours) next year.

I like the whole idea of Colossals: it's adding a nice new element to Warmachine and Hordes. And obviously they are not those "unbalanced monsters" as some people try to sell or moan about them. - The ETC proved to me that they (at least: the Stormwall) are indeed balanced and give Cygnar a fair chance to get back to the top in a broader manner.

I still think double Stormwalls is a hardcore build, but I'm only really scared of them with pHaley and incidentally that's exactly who Brett used to ROFLSTOMP through the ETC. Stormwall is fine with all the other casters, but pHaley running them is a nightmare.

So you've won both of your games and are still scared about them? How's that?

About Stormwalls I think that the good players will find tricks to take them down with normal balanced lists. And I guess the tourney results show it. But on the other hand what if the top teams had Stormwalls...

Evidently they didn't have Stormwalls: and I think that's not just a coincidence. We'll get more numbers from other big tournaments soon...

[Scorpioni]

Our team, Devil's Dice, had one stormwall in a eHaley list. It got destroyed in at least 3 games, I think.

I as a PoM player was eager to meet an enemy with one or two but sadly didn't encounter any. My avatar and bonded eFeora supertemplar had fun smashing other things though.

[ChristianAas]

Team Smorgasbord played versus 8 Stormwalls in one round at the Maelstrom ETC.

They killed ALL 8 Stormwalls.

With Damiano, eHaley, pKreoss and pIrusk.

Bear in mind, no one in the team have ever played a Stormwall before.

[scout's honor]

Team Smorgasbord played versus 8 Stormwalls in one round at the Maelstrom ETC.

They killed ALL 8 Stormwalls.

With Damiano, eHaley, pKreoss and pIrusk.

Bear in mind, no one in the team have ever played a Stormwall before.

pIrusk's infantry can do ridiculous damage thanks to Battle Lust, eHaley is a really hard matchup for low model count armies, pKreos has Defenders Ward to get all those Menoth weaponmasters in melee and Purification to strip the Stormwalls of any additional defensive buffs. Not sure about Damiano, but I think it's safe to say by now that all those neat built-in advantages Colossals have don't always outweigh the fact that having a lot of points tied up in a single model, even one with such presence on the board, is a definite disadvantage. Tying up twiced as many points in only two models really is a big weakness against lists that can abuse that advantage.

[@Kriegsspiele]

Our team, Devil's Dice, had one stormwall in a eHaley list. It got destroyed in at least 3 games, I think.

Thanks! Updated the list! Only 6 Stormwalls missing...

[Lamoron]

So you've won both of your games and are still scared about them? How's that?

Because they weren't run by pHaley and there was just one of them. If it had been run by pHaley I would have been in serious trouble, and two of them run by pHaley is something I see no way around. Now I've been up against them and everything I've said the last few months still stands.

The Stormwall is fine and I even think it would be fine at 18 points as well. FA2 makes it a problem against several lists but still not a broken model. pHaley makes just one of them a big fat horrible nightmare, and two Stormwalls with pHaley is a setup that will only lose to ranged armies that ignore LoS or if the player is poor.

Edit: "Evidently they didn't have Stormwalls: and I think that's not just a coincidence. We'll get more numbers from other big tournaments soon... ". I think it's because the top teams have been training and perfecting their lists for a long time, and throwing it all out the window for a shot at using some new models is usually a bad idea

[ShoX]

Had my first game vs Stormwall the other day and I'd say even though I lost, the Stormwall doesn't pose an insurmountable challenge, I just played it wrong and forgot a rule or two that were in my favor. Players will adjust their lists to some degree and figure out colossals' limitations. Even for someone as scared of other people's shiny toys as I am, I'm not worried by them.

[West996]

So a Cygnar player playing 2 StormWalls with Haley went undefeated and took Best General award. Sounds exactly like what we were talking about happening.

Everyone looks at that 8 Storm Wall team that didn't win and says, "See." While this undefeated Haley player's own team says they brought him down. They all played Storm Walls sure, as a matter of theme and it was cool. They all didn't play them in a way or with a caster that was a problem.

The player who played them exactly how those of us who had concerns about them described them being played went undefeated.

We never said the Storm Wall itself was unbeatable or broken. We said the fact that they are FA2 was going to be a problem and specifically with Haley.

[PG_carnage4u]

Stomrwall lists did not win at Diecon, the only other big event since the stormwall release. Many players havent thought enough about how to handle these models or brought lists to deal with them. It didnt matter the caster, but at the 50pt game level, I didnt see many people that were "prepareded" for them, have a huge problem.

A Haley player with 2 stormwalls won 1 event. Thats not any need for worry. It shouldnt even qualify for the "Doom Chart"

[ScottEBJJ]

So a Cygnar player playing 2 StormWalls with Haley went undefeated and took Best General award. Sounds exactly like what we were talking about happening.

Everyone looks at that 8 Storm Wall team that didn't win and says, "See." While this undefeated Haley player's own team says they brought him down. They all played Storm Walls sure, as a matter of theme and it was cool. They all didn't play them in a way or with a caster that was a problem.

The player who played them exactly how those of us who had concerns about them described them being played went undefeated.

We never said the Storm Wall itself was unbeatable or broken. We said the fact that they are FA2 was going to be a problem and specifically with Haley.

Could you please take the second needed to fact check your statements? I know you are in such a hurry to vindicate your rhetoric, but didn't Fox News teach you anything about not jumping the gun in regards to their Obama-care coverage?

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...he-british-ETC

eHaley with one Stormwall. eHaley? Doing well at a tournament? Alert the media!

So the Best General did not in fact play exactly how those of you had concerns described them being played, not at all.

[West996]

Could you please take the second needed to fact check your statements? I know you are in such a hurry to vindicate your rhetoric, but didn't Fox News teach you anything about not jumping the gun in regards to their Obama-care coverage?

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...he-british-ETC

eHaley with one Stormwall. eHaley? Doing well at a tournament? Alert the media!

So the Best General did not in fact play exactly how those of you had concerns described them being played, not at all.

I have to say though your targeted sarcasm focused on being personally diminutive is not productive. I know that you are trying to prove a point as well, but in your fervor to point out my inaccuracies and what indeed is your well established opinion that my views on the Storm Wall are incorrect, I believe you are proving another point altogether, and not the one you intend.

I respect the fact that you disagree with me, and am happy to debate the finer points of both of our positions anytime. However I will ask that you keep what seems to be your personal vendetta towards me out of the discussion. It is unbecoming.

[rwould]

But he is right West996. It was not a two Stormwall list, was used by the current UK number one, and was a caster that is generally recognised as one of the top casters in the game. So it is pretty hard to determine that his success was down to the Stormwall.

It will be interesting to see if in a few months time your opinion has changed once you've played in tournaments against them.

[Lighten]

I don't see any particular evidence of a problem. Unlike most tourneys, ETC ends before going down to one undefeated player, and a team that "drags you down" actually helps slightly, since you play on the middle rather than top tables.

An excellent player running eHaley + one stormwall went undefeated. Great work on his part, but it's no argument about multiple stormwalls being problematic, and the team of 8 stormwalls, as well as the pHaley player who took double stormwalls and lost some games, seem to argue the opposite.

[Lamoron]

Hmm that's my bad... I thought it was pHaley, but I did get the one Stormwall right. I still stand my proclamation of doom when it comes to pHaley though, and Brett is a great player.

[ScottEBJJ]

I have to say though your targeted sarcasm focused on being personally diminutive is not productive. I know that you are trying to prove a point as well, but in your fervor to point out my inaccuracies and what indeed is your well established opinion that my views on the Storm Wall are incorrect, I believe you are proving another point altogether, and not the one you intend.

I respect the fact that you disagree with me, and am happy to debate the finer points of both of our positions anytime. However I will ask that you keep what seems to be your personal vendetta towards me out of the discussion. It is unbecoming.

My only vendetta is the one against the complete inaccuracy you attempted to post in order to further your viewpoint.

Was I wrong in posting that posting what you said was inaccurate? No I was 100% correct. While you personally might find my sarcasm not productive what exactly is posting completely false information in furtherance of your own agenda?

I may be sarcastic, but at least I'm not putting my foot in my mouth.

[SteakAndSpirits]

...such a hurry to vindicate your rhetoric, but didn't Fox News...?

Fox...

...News?

Wait. Is Privateer Press part of the vast right wing conspiracy?

Holy crap that's so sinister! More importantly though, what the hell is it doing in this thread? :P :P :P

-s&s

[Lamoron]

Can't we all be friends, and not kill each other over something I said when I was so tired that I couldn't remember what my team mates were called?

[West996]

But he is right West996. It was not a two Stormwall list, was used by the current UK number one, and was a caster that is generally recognised as one of the top casters in the game. So it is pretty hard to determine that his success was down to the Stormwall.

It will be interesting to see if in a few months time your opinion has changed once you've played in tournaments against them.

I recognize that I made a mistake, I don't pretend to be infallible. I just think that his response was rude. I guess I have been spoiled posting on the PP forums for so long where most of us are polite and constructive that I have a thinner skin then I should when posting on a internet forum.

[Blackraine]

As someone who has played (and has played against) a lot of 'jack and 'beast heavy lists over the years, and who always brings a dedicated anti-'jack/beast list to tournaments, I don't see a problem with colossals. I have a friend who runs a 50 point Goreshade list that consists of Goreshade, Nightmare, a Skarlock Thrall, as many Seethers as he can throw into it and a couple of pistol wraiths. If you couldn't deal with that, you won't deal with colossals. If you COULD deal with that, Colossals will be just another speed bump on the road to victory.

If anything, I anticipate (with joy) that Colossals will make those kinds of lists more popular. My fellow Menites might actually bring Amon ad Raza to the table more often. eKaya and other beast-heavy warlocks might see more play. It's exciting (to me) that the game is once again becoming something other than "Who can build the best infantry-masher".

[tensteam]

I don't see any particular evidence of a problem. Unlike most tourneys, ETC ends before going down to one undefeated player, and a team that "drags you down" actually helps slightly, since you play on the middle rather than top tables.

Yep. There were over 10 players who went undefeated all weekend and that's because of the team format. The best general was awarded to the one with most control points and as we all know getting high control points is easier if you face even slightly weaker players than in the top. BTW the 2nd best general played also eHaley, played in the winning team (so got the play against the best teams all the time) and didn't have Stormwall. There was also 3rd Cygnar player at 6 wins, dunno what he used. Most probably not Stormwalls either. And of course there was a total of 4 undefeated Cryx players

EDIT: And to get totally off-topic none of the undefeated players played Hordes factions while all 6 WM factions were represented!

[West996]

My only vendetta is the one against the complete inaccuracy you attempted to post in order to further your viewpoint.

Was I wrong in posting that posting what you said was inaccurate? No I was 100% correct. While you personally might find my sarcasm not productive what exactly is posting completely false information in furtherance of your own agenda?

I may be sarcastic, but at least I'm not putting my foot in my mouth.

People make mistakes on the forums..

I'm not furthering an agenda, I have nothing to gain by expressing my concerns over the Storm Wall. You react to my posts like I am part of some conspiracy and that my words have some chance of PP reading them, taking them for fact and making changes based on my posts alone. I assure you I have no such power.

If you insisted on following every post I make and checking them for errors you will find more. If you continue to respond to such posts in the way you have been, It won't be my reputation you will be tarnishing I assure you.

[A8mew]

People make mistakes on the forums..

I'm not furthering an agenda, I have nothing to gain by expressing my concerns over the Storm Wall. You react to my posts like I am part of some conspiracy and that my words have some chance of PP reading them, taking them for fact and making changes based on my posts alone. I assure you I have no such power.

If you insisted on following every post I make and checking them for errors you will find more. If you continue to respond to such posts in the way you have been, It won't be my reputation you will be tarnishing I assure you.

Yes. People make mistakes on forums. But typically, they can manage to get something more than "went undefeated and took best general" right. I suppose you also got them playing Cygnar right.

But in your haste to continue trying to find proof that your "The Stormwall is ridiculously broken with pHaley!" standpoint is wholly justified, you managed to get every other important detail wrong. Its pretty obvious you don't like the Stormwall, that's fine. But you've been in every single thread even remotely discussing the Stormwall, speaking from upon high, spouting off whatever is convenient for your point even if it makes no sense or flies blatantly in the face of the stated rules.

Frankly, saying that "Big deal, I make errors all the time, it really makes you look bad to be correcting me" is an utterly ridiculous point to be trying to make, and doesn't on any level resemble honest discourse in the slightest.

[West996]

Yes. People make mistakes on forums. But typically, they can manage to get something more than "went undefeated and took best general" right. I suppose you also got them playing Cygnar right.

But in your haste to continue trying to find proof that your "The Stormwall is ridiculously broken with pHaley!" standpoint is wholly justified, you managed to get every other important detail wrong. Its pretty obvious you don't like the Stormwall, that's fine. But you've been in every single thread even remotely discussing the Stormwall, speaking from upon high, spouting off whatever is convenient for your point even if it makes no sense or flies blatantly in the face of the stated rules.

Frankly, saying that "Big deal, I make errors all the time, it really makes you look bad to be correcting me" is an utterly ridiculous point to be trying to make, and doesn't on any level resemble honest discourse in the slightest.

I don't think I have been a anti-Storm Wall zealot by any means. I have been discussing the Storm Wall as has everyone else. I am also not the only one with concerns about them.

All of my discussions on other threads have been met with constructive debate, except the responses from Scott.

I didn't say I make mistakes all the time and you anyone who corrects me looks bad. How can you quote my post and in the same response change my words? I said that If that particular poster continues to 'follow me around', and respond to my posts with as close to a personal attack as you can get, people will start to see a pattern.

Anyway, if you or any other poster which to continue discussing my posting habits, kindly PM me. I don't think this is the place for it. If you have a real problem with how I have been posting, feel free contact a Moderator.

[ScottEBJJ]

How exactly is directly refuting your statements in this thread at all an attack on your person?

You posted inaccurate information because you wanted to prove your point. You were called out on that. That is an attack directly on your argument. That you immediately get defensive and call it an assassination of character is your own issue.

Your arguments must appear far different to you then the rest of us if you believe you have come of as anything but very anti-Stormwall.

[Kenton]

I found 2 Stormwalls under pHaley, as a Skorne player and thus denied enrage, incredibly difficult.

In fact I only managed to destroy one when temporal thingumy was dropped one turn and sneakily power attack pushed Haley out of a scoring zone for the final CP. Overall it was an uphill struggle to rival Le Tour Mountain Stages.

But broken? No. Given more experience I think it'd be even less of an issue. By day 3 of the ETC I was hoping for Stormwall lists as they seem formulaic and are relatively easy (in singles) for he eHexeris list I was using. I'm not arrogant enough to think I'd have beaten Brett but I my list would give me a fighting chance at least.

@West: continuing the argument in the thread does not help your cause.
@Scott: ditto.

[@Kriegsspiele]

ammunitiongames posted photos of the individual results yesterday and Tim King (Maelstrom) said he'll be posting more results today.

In general I think it's important to bear in mind that the ETC has been a team tournament where the individual pairings based on team decisions (and some luck, too).

[Rinion]

Is there an easy break down of factions by %, by any chance? 8/20 at the top were Cryx at least =p

[Lamoron]

Is there an easy break down of factions by %, by any chance? 8/20 at the top were Cryx at least =p

But lot of them were on poor teams (myself included) and noob-stomped their way to the top. Whatever percentages would have to take that into account because I probably wouldn't have ended up there if my team had done well.

[scout's honor]

Yes, faction breakdowns would be fairly meaningless since, indeed, individual rankings aren't all that accurate to begin with. It really is a team event.

[Rinion]

But lot of them were on poor teams (myself included) and noob-stomped their way to the top. Whatever percentages would have to take that into account because I probably wouldn't have ended up there if my team had done well.

Well the bit about Cryx should have been on a different line i suppose! Was more generally interested in faction representation overall rather than actual faction placings.