The Stormwall: Is Cygnar the new Cryx?

[MadJack]

No, it hasnt been going on for ages. In fact, it hasnt even begun yet, since the Galleon isnt even out yet. It will definitely get errata'd though once the complaints start rolling in.

Why would anyone complain about Spiny Growth, and why would it get errata'd? It's really not any more unbalancing than Arcane Shield or Failsafe.

[Driver]

Why would anyone complain about Spiny Growth, and why would it get errata'd? It's really not any more unbalancing than Arcane Shield or Failsafe.

Because it can be stacked with BDTH or FS?

[Driver]

Just out of curiosity, how many people complaining about the stormwall have actually played it? I am up to ~30 games with and against all the colossals and I would say the Judicator and Galleon are straight up better, and the Kraken gives such a boost to its factions ranged game that it is almost as good.

Only the Conquest and Hype is straight up worse.

[MadJack]

Because it can be stacked with BDTH or FS?

Meh. I still don't see it as being such a big deal. There are ways around it (either general ways around high ARM, or ways to remove/ignore upkeeps/animi).

[Da-Rock]

I think the issue is that Colossals have changed the game and most people do not handle change well. I think the change was done very well as the only drawback is that people cannot take their same old tired lists and win as easily as before. Sounds great.

The fact that the Stormwall is great doesn't mean anything in the real world as each faction always has something better then another faction. Personally I love it all as I play Cygnar, Mercs and Trollbloods. Galleon and Bart is a no brainer as is THE STACHE! Fail Safe + Spiny Growth + Auto passing meatshields and Jackhammer? Yes please.

[Soulblighter]

Meh. I still don't see it as being such a big deal. There are ways around it (either general ways around high ARM, or ways to remove/ignore upkeeps/animi).

Thats just it. Some factions dont have ways around it at all. Circle of Orboros for example will have a heck of a time dealing with two ARM24 Colossals. Thats why it will be errata'd.

[Da-Rock]

Thats just it. Some factions dont have ways around it at all. Circle of Orboros for example will have a heck of a time dealing with two ARM24 Colossals. Thats why it will be errata'd.

Really? If there are two Colossals out there it means you tarpit the big guys and kill the Caster. It doesn't come down to Arm value or health boxes. Simply put, Colossals do NOT break this game nor does Spiny growth on those who can get Wrongeye and Snapjaw plus a Bull Snapper at 12 points - 18+18+12 = 48pts, minus Warjack points means you have a couple support solos or a min unit!

Nothing is broken anymore than what it was before. We all have played against MASS Bane Thrall plus eGaspy and felt helpless and at the same time we have found ways to beat it.

[MadJack]

Thats just it. Some factions dont have ways around it at all. Circle of Orboros for example will have a heck of a time dealing with two ARM24 Colossals. Thats why it will be errata'd.

Then you'd better not go up against my Cygnar list where I've got two ARM 22 Colossals for most of the game, and 1 turn where they're both ARM 27. There's definitely not going to be an errata for that (and it can be done in a 50 point list while still leaving enough points for mechanics to fix them and a couple of units to support them, whereas the Merc way of getting two ARM 24 Colossals leaves you with virtually no points for anything else), and I don't see any need for an errata for Spiny Growth either.

Edit: Also, doesn't Circle have access to Thrullgs to remove buffs? Don't you have spells like Curse of Shadows to debuff ARM?

[ElCapitan28]

Then you'd better not go up against my Cygnar list where I've got two ARM 22 Colossals for most of the game, and 1 turn where they're both ARM 27. There's definitely not going to be an errata for that (and it can be done in a 50 point list while still leaving enough points for mechanics to fix them and a couple of units to support them, whereas the Merc way of getting two ARM 24 Colossals leaves you with virtually no points for anything else), and I don't see any need for an errata for Spiny Growth either.

Edit: Also, doesn't Circle have access to Thrullgs to remove buffs? Don't you have spells like Curse of Shadows to debuff ARM?

They also have the Pureblood's animus, which gives Blessed.

[MadJack]

They also have the Pureblood's animus, which gives Blessed.

Good point. Put that on a couple of heavies and you'll probably have some wrecked Colossals pretty quick. Also, don't Bloodweavers have a way to remove buffs?

For that matter, the best way to deal with a pair of high ARM Colossals is probably to avoid them (while keeping them busy with something) and go for a sneaky assassination. In my experience that's something Circle excels at. I'm really not seeing why this is difficult for Circle to deal with.

[Sardonic Artery]

#1 reason spiny growth with Galleon won't be erratad: You're paying 31 points for it (Galleon + Wrongeye and Snapjaw + Bull snapper).

[Sardonic Artery]

Not surprised at all to see so many Stormwalls. I predict its only going to get worse too. PP really dropped the ball making the Stormwall so much better than all the other Colossals. And its not just that its better at face value, it also synergizes better with the rest of the faction, and it gives Cygnar something they havent really had since the MK1 Centurion: staying power. So yeah I think Cygnar is definitely going to be the new Cryx.

Wait, so because our models don't crumble and they've got a level of synergy, Cygnar is OP now?

[Stinkmeaner]

I think Cygnar have been good, they just have less "flavor" than most factions so they get less draw in my opinion. They are just the new hotness because thier Colossal is a tad OP and can get some auto-wins until people figure out how to beat it. You MAY have to change your competitive lists up a bit... I for one kind of expected this when they mentioned Colossals were coming. If you expected them to be easy to kill, you just didnt give it much thought. That being said Stormwall DOES do more and synergize better in faction than any of the other colossals. Thats not the Cygnar players fault though....

[West996]

I think Cygnar have been good, they just have less "flavor" than most factions so they get less draw in my opinion. They are just the new hotness because thier Colossal is a tad OP and can get some auto-wins until people figure out how to beat it. You MAY have to change your competitive lists up a bit... I for one kind of expected this when they mentioned Colossals were coming. If you expected them to be easy to kill, you just didnt give it much thought. That being said Stormwall DOES do more and synergize better in faction than any of the other colossals. Thats not the Cygnar players fault though....

I do think that Cygnar was a tad under powered before as a faction. I don't think they have less flavor and are drawn less at all. If there is data to support otherwise then I apologize. The perception I get from my current meta is that there are plenty of Cygnar players out there, they were just never a huge threat when it came to winning tournaments.

I think that Cygnar needed a little bit of a boost.

My brother plays Cygnar and he is excited for the Storm Wall but one thing he is a little concerned about, is that at this point he feels it to be almost an auto include 50 points and above just because of how good it is, and how much Cygnar needed a model like this.

It is not a real bad thing he just feels that it takes some of the variety out of his lists. For him though it is still too early to tell if this is actually the case.

[scout's honor]

I think Cygnar have been good, they just have less "flavor" than most factions so they get less draw in my opinion...

I think it's the other way around, really. Too many different flavours in the same faction: voltaic science, arcane tempest, trenchers, sword knights/precursors - Cygnar's all over the place.

[Stinkmeaner]

I guess I need to explain what I mean when I say "flavor"... By that I mean, an army that draws a lot of attention and looks fun to play. In my meta, we have 1 Cygnar player, and he is not regular. Most other people like the look and "feel" and stories of other armies better. The reason this is a factor is because I think when people feel connected to an army, they get good with it. Its not a faction that is played by the top players with any regularity. And I don't think it's a stat issue, as much as it is a "man, this is boring" issue. I do not think this way, I like Cygnar, but I have heard that a lot from people or variations of that.

[West996]

I guess I need to explain what I mean when I say "flavor"... By that I mean, an army that draws a lot of attention and looks fun to play. In my meta, we have 1 Cygnar player, and he is not regular. Most other people like the look and "feel" and stories of other armies better. The reason this is a factor is because I think when people feel connected to an army, they get good with it. Its not a faction that is played by the top players with any regularity. And I don't think it's a stat issue, as much as it is a "man, this is boring" issue. I do not think this way, I like Cygnar, but I have heard that a lot from people or variations of that.

That might be your experience but in my meta it is the opposite. Cygnar is after all one of the 'signature' factions in Warmachine along side Khaor. PP is always featuring them in art work and such. When the Colossals were in development it was pictures of the Storm Wall and the Konquest we first saw.

The Cygnar art to me looks like some sort of Final Fantasyeque / anime style with their fancy swords and blonde spikey hair.

In my meta a lot of new players to WM/H chose Cygnar as their first army almost with out hesitation because its look and feel. Especially when you see all the guns and get the idea you can just sit back and blast away. The reality however is far different and a lot of those players regrettably moved to stronger factions when they were more experienced.

I'm not sure if the Storm Wall was done right or not, but if it is a step forward in bringing Cyngar on par with with the rest of Warmachine I'm all for it.

[@Kriegsspiele]

I'm not sure if the Storm Wall was done right or not, but if it is a step forward in bringing Cyngar on par with with the rest of Warmachine I'm all for it.

Signed. Cygnar was a decreasing faction on tournaments... until lately.

[Da-Rock]

It will be errata'd though. Spiny Growth will almost certainly be changed to only work on living models in the next errata update. There's no way they'll continue to allow Talion charter to have two ARM24 colossals. So enjoy it while it lasts

So then they will be doing an errata for Bane Thralls and everything else over the top in the next errata too?

Retribution stuff still ignores the Arm bonus as does Blessed. Puts in line with everything else I would say.

[ShoX]

I think Circle is one of the least fazed by Colossals. We got Pureblood, Weavers, CoS to deal with ARM buffs and just got Ghetorix to back up the feral and Stalker for high ARM cracking. Also blessed Woldwyrd = 2 shots at 4D6 - 9 vs AS Stormwall. (which netted me a good ~20ish dmg in 2 turns, meaning you can freely commit 2 heavies to killing it, because there's no way to survive that.

[Stephan Garmark]

I think it's Darius, pStryker, eNemo and one of the Haleys - not sure which...

Darius, pStryker, pHaley and N3mo

[@Kriegsspiele]

Stormwalls to the front! Stormwall spamming seems to go on at the Privateer Weekend (diecon):

Some pictures. http://museonminis.com/privateer-weekend-diecon-pics/

Looking forward to read about the results there...

[moddball]

#1 reason spiny growth with Galleon won't be erratad: You're paying 31 points for it (Galleon + Wrongeye and Snapjaw + Bull snapper).

I agree, Spiney Growth Bart list have been around a while I see no reason this will change. The solution is always the same kill Bart or the bullsnapper. I don't see how a +2 buff is such a big deal.

[Ghost2014]

On the record. I'm a Cygnar player who doesn't actually like the Stormwall.

It's a big target that once it goes down your almost always boned.

[Lanz]

Don't let it go down then. I had my Stormwall take down Beast-09, a Spriggan, and the Behemoth in 2 turns without taking any damage at all.

[Granis]

I'm kinda worried about me as a fairly inexperience Protectorate player going against a COlossal, even though I'm still sitting at 35pts.

Whent he Judicator comes out.... I don't know if I should invest to expand to 50 or just to deal with other colossals because..... that's a lot of money, and I wouldn't know how best to run it considering I don't normally play someone like Reznik. I don't think the Judicator will be very viable on folks like eKrieoss, pSevvy, or Vindictus. Heck, my only 'jack caster is Amon, and he's probably not all that Judicator friendly, so I don't know if it's worth the 100 bucks. But then again, I'm scared of fighting them, since I already stuggle v.s. some Battle Engines sometimes.

[MadJack]

I'm kinda worried about me as a fairly inexperience Protectorate player going against a COlossal, even though I'm still sitting at 35pts. Whent he Judicator comes out.... I don't know if I should invest to expand to 50 or just to deal with other colossals because..... that's a lot of money, and I wouldn't know how best to run it considering I don't normally play someone like Reznik.

You don't need a colossal to deal with other colossals. Cheap melee beatsticks supported by choir can do the job fine. Unless your opponent is a jerk like me and takes 2 Stormwalls, each with Arcane Shield on them, and pops pStryker's feat to put them both at ARM 27, while keeping a unit of mechaniks behind each of them to do repairs. But in those cases, your primary goal should be to find a way to go around the colossals and kill the caster anyway.

[PG_malfred]

The judicator will work fine with many things.


Pseverius is good with anything.
Ekreoss can make it trickier to land a spell on the judicator via arc node.
Vindictis...not sure that I would try it outside 50 and up.

[Lanz]

If you want to deal with colossals as protectorate, take a caster that can strip upkeeps and animus, or take eEiryss. Then just make sure you have 2-3 heavies, which is fairly normal for protectorate anyways.

[VOLK]

I don't think the Stormwall will make Cygnar the new Cryx. My biggest problem is that the Stormwall is so awesome in the sea of barely average or downright sub-standard options that make up the rest of Cygnar. There are very few lists that aren't improved by its inclusion. Someone in this thread said the new Cygnar cry will be "moar Stormwall!" to echo "moar banez!". I agree, except Cryx has a bevy of excellent options besides banes.

Then again, what's the alternative? The models won't be rebalanced for quite some time, so at least this makes Cygnar a credible threat.

[ScottEBJJ]

Don't let it go down then. I had my Stormwall take down Beast-09, a Spriggan, and the Behemoth in 2 turns without taking any damage at all.

Is your opponent gift wrapping you three heavies and your dice going hot really a relevent retort?

I will grant you the poster you were responding to exaggerated himself. Though.

But on topic Stormwall did everything but dominate Gencon.

[Lanz]

Is your opponent gift wrapping you three heavies and your dice going hot really a relevent retort?

Superior mobility, rough terrain, and the ability to lob solos at the other heavies to deny them charges. There was, really, nothing he could do.

[Joasht]

Man this is a long thread.

Very simply put, my opinion on this is very simple;
It depends on what size of game you are playing.

For those playing 50 points, killing a Colossal is certainly well within reasonable bounds. However, go smaller than 50 (e.g. 35) and you start realizing that not only do you need a pretty polarized list to kill a Colossal, but in some cases, you might need a downright anti-Colossal list to kill a Colossal, simply because your typical list doesn't pack nearly as much firepower as you'd want. Generally speaking, two heavies won't be sufficient to kill a buffed Stormwall, unless they rock extremely high damage output (e.g. buffs, and/or things like the Behemoth or Avatar). And at 35 points, you can't quite squeeze more than that unless, again, you go for an extremely polarized list.

EDIT:
Oh, and of course, at 35 points and below, using another Colossal to kill a Colossal is a legit answer, but that doesn't exactly help the situation.

[kolonelk]

I'm playing in a 25pt event next weekend, and wondering what the chances of running into a Colossal are. I'm thinking probably pretty high, and of those most likely I'll see a Stormwall. I'm wondering if I should just be unpleasant and run something with a Bronzeback and a Gladiator just in case. They should be able to get the job done between them.

[VOLK]

Then you'd better not go up against my Cygnar list where I've got two ARM 22 Colossals for most of the game, and 1 turn where they're both ARM 27. There's definitely not going to be an errata for that (and it can be done in a 50 point list while still leaving enough points for mechanics to fix them and a couple of units to support them, whereas the Merc way of getting two ARM 24 Colossals leaves you with virtually no points for anything else), and I don't see any need for an errata for Spiny Growth either.

Edit: Also, doesn't Circle have access to Thrullgs to remove buffs? Don't you have spells like Curse of Shadows to debuff ARM?

Circle would deal with buff stacking like this simply by going around the two colossals and killing your caster. If 95% of your army is two mega bases, it should be pretty easy to get a teleport angle past them.

It may also make the Pureblood's stock go up. Blessed is way better than Primal in such a situation, and the spray is great for tagging support models hiding in the back lines. As one of the most pillow-fisted factions overall, Circle will have to play smart to deal with such shenanigans.

By the way, if you're having problems with colossals (or mention engines for that matter), a Lord of the Feast is tailor made to slaughter the ubiquitous support models (and may even tag the occasional caster, since colossals make such tempting hiding spots).

[Big_D]

Being a puritan cryx player I will first take a look at how I can deal with these so called winbuttons in faction before taking in mercenarys.

I'm thinking ARM debuff spell, apply banes and call me in the morning

Banes + pSkarre = dead collossal

[jlav]

Played several games with the Stormwall, and Against the Stormwall. Not enough to say anything conclusive, but enough to know that a Stormclad hits just as hard, and it isn't difficult to arrange a 1 round against a Stormwall with a typical Hordes list. There are plenty of high armour heavies that shut down its shooting, and with tactics, and support that people are bringing anyway, the Stormwall is just as much a liability to Cygnar as a pain in the arse to their enemies.

[mongoose1]

OMG are we still riding around on this bandwagon!!

[computertrucker]

I do believe I saw more conquests than stormwalls at Gencon

[Defenstrator]

What amuses me is all the whinging about Cygnar, and then Menoth steamrolls master with half the spots.