Is there a way to counter eCain other than eFeora?

[Arractur]

I've seen some games with eCain and today I at last played with him myself (eSeverius). Results - total annihilation. I was told that I should just charge forward if I want a chance against him... I don't see how is it possible since he makes everything in his threat range drop dead even without his feat, and with his feat... well, you know. Reinhold, Squire, rangers, all stuff.

I heard enough about how eFeora rapes him - is there any other way? Because, and I know that it's stupid and arrogant for a new player, but simply every protectorate player seems to be playing eFeora cos she is so cool and sparky. So is there any other way to counter Cain and imba monsters like him, or I have just to forsake my pride and go eFeora?

Thank you

[Silverstar843]

Don't get shot, keep your caster out of range of him, don't be afraid to run to get to him or his army, don't let him get rangers near you, camp focus, lob aoes at him, kill reinholdt/squire/Eyriss/Corbeau, screen, stealth to force more focus out of him, DW/IR yourself, knock him down and shoot him, or disrupt him (pEyriss). Apply as often as necessary.

[jandrese]

Vindictus can give him a bad day too. Remember that gunfighter attacks are still ranged attacks, and if vindy has defenders ward up he is pretty hard to kill.

[Arractur]

Hmmmmm... Jan, you actually give me some hope. I own Vindictus and I was actually going to play him later(don't have Zealots and wont be able to get them soon). But how do I defend him? Vindi is not Fiora, would not Cain just shoot him due to his high mobility and feat?

[Snipafist]

Vindictus can give him a bad day too. Remember that gunfighter attacks are still ranged attacks, and if vindy has defenders ward up he is pretty hard to kill.

And that Greater Destiny Holy Zealots are more than happy to endlessly eat Caine's pistol shots for Vindictus.

If you're rolling pKreoss, you can Purify away his no-knockdown spell and then feat. That completely removes his high DEF and makes him easy prey. If you don't succeed at killing him that turn, however, pKreoss is dog chow.

[allenamenvergeben]

Harbinger can stay so far back so he cant reach her. Downside is she wont do a lot of martyring this game.

[Gaston]

HR + Orin Midwinter :-)

[Trevor Scantron]

Hmmmmm... Jan, you actually give me some hope. I own Vindictus and I was actually going to play him later(don't have Zealots and wont be able to get them soon). But how do I defend him? Vindi is not Fiora, would not Cain just shoot him due to his high mobility and feat?

Vindictus can transfer a direct hit to a Zealot, forcing eCain to kill all the Zealots before he can land a shot on Vindictus.

(Not that it really helps you due to your lack of Z's vv)

[PG_Deist]

Vindicutus with DW = Def 17, Camping 5 puts you at ARM 23. Gorman can toss a cloud which brings your def to 19.

[darisus]

eCaine isn't that bad jsut light him on fire and watch him dance. Repenters and Vanquishers usually do a good job of this. Postioning is kind of key with him, so flank with fire causing things and tempt him with something jucy in the middle for a crossfire, or have high arm. He does't do super well against high arm till after the first few shots on his feat turn. If you can survive that he pretty much rolls over for you.

[Arractur]

eCaine isn't that bad jsut light him on fire and watch him dance. Repenters and Vanquishers usually do a good job of this. Postioning is kind of key with him, so flank with fire causing things and tempt him with something jucy in the middle for a crossfire, or have high arm. He does't do super well against high arm till after the first few shots on his feat turn. If you can survive that he pretty much rolls over for you.

I see... well I tried to do it but my jacks was immidiatly owned by Eiriss and ol'Rowdy Counter Charge(I had Reckoner, BoV and VAnquisher). Was sad. Seems Like I have to chose - deal with intervening enemy and be raped by Cain or try to bypass them... and be raped by them. I simply dont see how I can catch Cain due to his crazy leaps across battlefield

Queston:what about pFeora? Or its just stupid?

[TheSanityAssassin]

What else is he running with Caine? And what have you taken with eSevvy? I've played that match before and done alright, using my feat to take a unit of his and knock out support like Rhineholdt and Corbeau, and hitting him with boosted Admonisher shots from Sevvy arced through BoV.


The key things I've found is that you have to be willing to sacrifice stuff to bring Caine to the places YOU want him to be. Give him targets that you're willing to lose to help you predict/control his movement. If he's burning through focus a few boosted 10's from Admonisher will clean him up fairly well.

[Arractur]

Rangers, A&H, eEiriss, Roudy, Charger, Journeyman, Squire, Reinholdt, Storm Strider. However, Strider should no be take in consideration since he took him just for fun - in normal game there would be B13, simple gunmages or stormlances.

hitting him with boosted Admonisher shots from Sevvy arced through BoV

I may be too paranoid but Cain turns BoV into scraps like no deal.

I had, ofcourse, an absolutly disbalanced roster, more like just a pack of models - to play 35 points I had to gather just all I have.
Grand Scrutator Severius (*6pts)
* Blessing of Vengeance (7pts)
* Reckoner (8pts)
* Vanquisher (8pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
Daughters of the Flame (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
High Paladin Dartan Vilmon (3pts)
Nicia, Tear of Vengeance (3pts)
Paladin of the Order of the Wall (2pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)

[vintersbastard]

I heard enough about how eFeora rapes him

Just out of curiousity: how is she doing that exactly? I don't see her great advantage compared to everybody else.

[Arractur]

Just out of curiousity: how is she doing that exactly? I don't see her great advantage compared to everybody else.

People playing Cygnar used to tell my that eFeora is the only counter to eCaine, because as soon as she puts fire on him he is as good as dead thx to caustic presence and she is not a squishy like our other casters so she can not fear of his shooting so hard.

[darisus]

Looks like his standard list is alot of melee jacks and some low arm shooting units. I would run a redemer in there and take out his shooting units, and try to bait his jacks with an enlivened jack. You could also try, some templars or avatar to pretty much negate all his low pow shooting. Vilmon and the pally just seem like a waste with all the magical shooting he has, so they definitely should go, for something else.

[Arractur]

Yes, Vilmon and pal both were killed on his first turn, useless.
Redeemer? I have one but every time I play him he is useless - can't shoot anything, permamiss and blasts go into nothingness.
What do you mean about baiting with enlivened jack? It was the first time I tryed Vassal honestly

[Snipafist]

Yes, Vilmon and pal both were killed on his first turn, useless.

If you use Impervious Wall against Cygnar, you're usually doing it wrong. They can muster a fair amount of magic shooting, and Caine can wipe out Vilmon and Co through their Impervious Walls all by himself. Usually Stone and Mortar Stance is the preferred stance because Cygnar struggles to muster high POW shooting - the best candidates for taking out ARM21 paladins would be Defenders (not used much) and Avengers (would need to double boost to hit and on average damage rolls won't quite kill an ARM 21 paladin in one hit). Most Cygnar players bring along Hunters for ARM busting, but a small based high ARM model gives low POW armor piercing fits.

Redeemer? I have one but every time I play him he is useless - can't shoot anything, permamiss and blasts go into nothingness.

He's pretty handy. About 1/3 of the time you'll hit your initial target with the blast damage and if you target centralized models, blasts can go into their nearby buddies. He's really only a great option if you can feed him focus consistently and/or with eFeora, who can make his templates set people on fire. Vanquishers are a bit more reliable at hitting, but need to be in close enough range to get charged by Cygnar heavies. That's kind of tricky, unless..

What do you mean about baiting with enlivened jack? It was the first time I tryed Vassal honestly

Put Enliven on a jack that you know is going to get charged next turn. Said jack gets charged, takes a hit, then moonwalks out of combat. Next turn, you can countercharge or just keep shooting, depending on your proclivities. Wise opponents will slam/headbutt you first (unless you've got the book around doing the prayer of no knockdown) or weapon lock/ head lock you first to prevent you from running away.

[stupidmonkey]

Enliven + the book is a mad man!! without the book old rowdy may be able to knock you down before you can run off. But it can be VERY useful.

The redeemer is great once you get the hang of it. especially with P-Sevi. It runs first turn and can stand still and shoot the rest of the game. with Choir, aiming, and Eye of Menoth he is rat 6. With boosts he is hitting def 16 models with Pow 15s and POW 9 blasts. Cygnar hates those stats. (circle too) As stated he is great with E-Fe's bond also.

+1 on Stone and Mortor stance vs Cignar or anyone that can muster magic attacks easily (circle... again)

[jandrese]

Stone and mortar doesn't usually work for me against Cygnar. Any boosted POW 10 still tends to kill them. Vilmon and his buddies are a bit situational sadly, and Cygnar is not the situation they are good against.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Stone and mortar doesn't usually work for me against Cygnar. Any boosted POW 10 still tends to kill them.

Not on average dice, they sure don't. That's dice -11, right?

[Snipafist]

Stone and mortar doesn't usually work for me against Cygnar. Any boosted POW 10 still tends to kill them. Vilmon and his buddies are a bit situational sadly, and Cygnar is not the situation they are good against.

Agreeing with PG_Steampunk Jim above. It's certainly POSSIBLE for them to get dropped to boosted POW10 damage, but it's not very likely at all. You'd need to roll a 16 on 3d6 to drop a Stone and Mortar paladin in one shot.

And I would say my most situational matchup for paladins would be Cryx. Generally if my foe doesn't have a lot of magic weapons (Khador) or high POW (Cygnar), the paladins do fine. If they have both magic attacks AND high POW attacks (Cryx) my paladins can run into some real trouble.

[jandrese]

Mine always die to the stupid gunmage critical brutal in Stone and Mortar. I know the odds of it happening are in the low single digits, but that never seems to stop my Cygnar players.

[Arractur]

Well that's what happened to me - they were standing in Stone and Mortar in our control point, Cain just advanced forward, oneshot both vilmon and paladin and teleported to hell... I mean away.

I still played only with Cryx, Trolls and Cygnar, apparently paladins were usefull only against trolls, wacking beasts.

[Soulblighter]

Agreeing with PG_Steampunk Jim above. It's certainly POSSIBLE for them to get dropped to boosted POW10 damage, but it's not very likely at all. You'd need to roll a 16 on 3d6 to drop a Stone and Mortar paladin in one shot.

Yeah the chance isnt very high. You need to roll a 16+, thats only about a 5% chance.

[PG_dungeongod]

Just out of curiousity: how is she doing that exactly? I don't see her great advantage compared to everybody else.

The big thing here is the bond. She bonds a redeemer (or soon, a Judicator) and the AOEs have ongoing fire on hit. Which means they don't have to hit - they just have to be close enough. With a Vanquisher and 2 vassals, a bonded redeemer and the Vanquisher can pump out 4 3" ongoing fire AOEs and 2 4" ongoing fire AOEs. Add in the choir, and the redeemer is doing POW 8 blast damage hits (which is dice-5 against Caine) and the Vanquisher is doing POW 9 blast damage hits (which is dice-4...) Plink away at him and they will get desperate quickly.

Honestly, that has been the best thing about running her. Very seldom do I kill someone in one turn. Instead, I plink away at them with ongoing fire, blast damage and the like (especially against low-armor 'casters and 'locks). Caine does not have a ton of health, and even 2-4 points of damage a turn is a big deal against him. Also, if he gets close, his fire will not go out, which is also a bonus

[Del Fuego]

It's also worth noting that a pSevy list can help ensure the Redeemer hits reliably if taken with a Reckoner and Choir. You're sitting at effective RAT 8 with pSevy or RAT 7 with any other caster if you flare the target and forfeit to aim.

[vintersbastard]

The big thing here is the bond. She bonds a redeemer (or soon, a Judicator) and the AOEs have ongoing fire on hit. (...)
Honestly, that has been the best thing about running her. Very seldom do I kill someone in one turn. Instead, I plink away at them with ongoing fire, blast damage and the like (especially against low-armor 'casters and 'locks). Caine does not have a ton of health, and even 2-4 points of damage a turn is a big deal against him. Also, if he gets close, his fire will not go out, which is also a bonus

Ahh, so it's mostly the fire on hit. Caine usually won't stay close enough for Caustic Presence to matter that much though, I'd think. So Feora1 can well serve the same purpose.
Severius1 might actually be better at the plinking away, thanks to Eye of Menoth and the higher focus load he can shoulder.

Also note that many savvy Cygnar players will put Arcane Shield on Caine when they see the Feoras, since upkeep spells are the only available Arm buff that works against Fire. Dice-4 is an acceptable condition for two turns.

[Arractur]

Thank you people. You gave me hell's load of food for thought. I think I'll stick to my eSevvy and Vindictus, and later will try pFeora OR High Reclaimer as a direct counter for eCaine and eCaine only.

Btw I noticed pKreoss as a recomendation for anti Caine... does not Hightened Reflexes counter Kreoss's feat?

[jandrese]

If eCaine is close enough for Caustic Presence and has not killed eFeora, then he's messed something up terribly and is probably going to die regardless. If you accidentally leave your caster within 18" of eCaine, you can generally expect them to be dead next turn unless you're camping all of your focus or something.

I did have a caster survive once, but it was Thyra and she was hugging the back of a Reckoner and I had killed all of the Rangers with some lucky AoEs early (the Caine player brought them out a little too soon). She only had a couple of health left though.

This is one of those cases where the Book can be a big lifesaver. It's always funny to watch the Caine player go on his inevitable assassination run, only to charge right into the bubble and be unable to gatecrash. There's that moment of panic when they realize they won't be able to gatecrash out to safety either. Caine is going to be stuck right at the front of his army where he has no business being.

[PG_KestrelM1]

Btw I noticed pKreoss as a recomendation for anti Caine... does not Hightened Reflexes counter Kreoss's feat?

pKreoss also has Purification, so he can wipe away Heightened Reflexes before using his feat.

eCaine does not like being DEF5/ARM13

[jandrese]

High Reclaimer as a direct counter for eCaine and eCaine only.

How is this supposed to work? eCaine is going to do what he always does, charge up to a strategically placed Ranger (that ran out of formation) 10" away from him (8" from your caster), pop feat, and Gatecrash next to the HR, shooting him to death easily with the extra focus from the Squire and free reload from the gobber. Another Ranger will run out of formation to debuff the HRs defense. If you can force him to jump into a cloud, he will be suffering -2 on the attack rolls (-4 if he didn't upkeep True Shot), but with the HR's base DEF of 14, that won't matter much, especially with the -2 from the Ranger.

You could try to surround the HR with models to avoid giving him a spot to Gatecrasher into, but no-look shots from the GMCA tend to open up holes right where he needs them. eCaine isn't going to care about that single point of damage from Soulstorm either.

[Arractur]

Jandre, I know that I am very stupid and inexpiriensed, but...

If you accidentally leave your caster within 18" of eCaine, you can generally expect them to be dead next turn unless you're camping all of your focus or something.

Seriosly, how is it possible to be NOT in 18 inches of Caine already at turn 2 or 3? Ofcourse if you are Harby with 20 control then ok, but if you are one of 6 foc casters...

[PG_dungeongod]

I tend to play jam lists, so I have no problems jamming up the lanes with lots of TFG (or something similar) to make it very risky for Caine2 to start running away. Also, I am not just speaking of caustic presence. He has Arcane Shield up, that is fine - the AOEs will still plink away. And you are probably bringing Fire back on to him every round. Also, Feora2 can camp like nobody's business, so she can sometimes even take a hit if necessary.

And yes - the book is a good answer to Caine2. As is Eiryss2, for dropping his upkeeps.

[stormshaft]

Ahh, so it's mostly the fire on hit. Caine usually won't stay close enough for Caustic Presence to matter that much though, I'd think. So Feora1 can well serve the same purpose.

Hmmm, Feora1 lacks the Epic Bond that Feora2 has, so no, she would not serve the exact same purpose regardless of her feat.
On the other hand she can throw out firewalls and with some clever positioning it will force Caine to either waste movement to get around, or make him take the Continous Effect.
Also Feora2 can put stuff on fire from much further away with a bonded Redeemer since only the Redeemer needs to be in her control area, for Feora1 to do the same thing she would need to get within 12" of the enemy model to be able to put fire to him/she/it.

[Spyde]

efeora is ARM 19 with escort so it helps some.

As said above, book is very nice to keep gate away.

Pkeross could do well, what does Gate cost ? 2 ? 3 ?

[jandrese]

Gatecrasher costs 3, so Lamentation hurts a lot unless Kreoss is not camping focus. Three initials plus a bought attack is still a POW 12, 13, 14, and 15 on your caster, which is more than enough for the kill vs. base ARM 15, even if he wiffs one of the attack rolls (needing a 3 to hit with an everpresent Ranger nearby).

[dchadpage]

If you're rolling pKreoss, you can Purify away his no-knockdown spell and then feat. That completely removes his high DEF and makes him easy prey. If you don't succeed at killing him that turn, however, pKreoss is dog chow.

I did this last week. Kreoss started behind a wall. Madelyn moved Kreoss 3", then he charged a friendly model for another 8", Purification to strip buffs (before feat!) then feat. pEiryss advances, shoots eCaine and drops his focus. Battled up Redeemer makes a crater.

[Spyde]

Gatecrasher costs 3, so Lamentation hurts a lot unless Kreoss is not camping focus. Three initials plus a bought attack is still a POW 12, 13, 14, and 15 on your caster, which is more than enough for the kill vs. base ARM 15, even if he wiffs one of the attack rolls (needing a 3 to hit with an everpresent Ranger nearby).

Thats the great thing about pkeross to me.

upkeep defenders ward/lamentation. camp the rest for the +5 armor.

Arm 20, vs a pow 12,13,14 Gatecrasher will take 6 focus to cast, leaving caine with 1 from a squire.

"average" damage rolls he would do 19/20/21 dmg

Even on armor 15, average rolls will only do 15 dmg. It will at least make your opponet think first...
Camp 2-3 focus, 2 for upkeep leaves you with 2-3 for jacks, 3-4 with Wracks

I'm not sure where 4 attacks are from ? hes got 2 base, 1 from Focus, Reindholt ?
if thats the case, camp to ARM 20, Move up defensivly, then next turn kill caine.

Then again, might not work how im thinking :P

[Snipafist]

Then again, might not work how im thinking :P

It doesn't work like you think. You cannot have two friendly upkeeps on the same model/unit. It's Defenders Ward or Lamentation, not both.