Are nihilators better than swordsmen even with the ua?

[<Archangel>]

Am I missing something here?, I really like the swordsmen but it's hard to take them when I already have nihilators I almost always have doomies in my Khador lists so Berserk is not a minus to me the only only reason I would take swordsmen is a pMakeda list, so I guess the question is do you take swordsmen over nihilators and if so why?

[kantoboy]

Same price more bodies, more attacks guaranteed without the threat of killing your own models. I think they play different roles, with the swordsmen more suited to offense.

[viperidae99]

Auto-plinking warrior models can be vital in some situations. Tough is great if you can roll it (I've made 3 out of 20 attempts recently). Reach vs Side Step. I'm not sure you can flatly compare them, as they each have different situations and locks they prefer.

[Kurgash]

For eHexy, take swordsmen. Multiple 1 point stabs on high arm, 1 wound infantry is just nightmarishly fun to do. Alot of times Nihils for jam, swordsmen for plinking damage on before a big hitter.

[Unknown_Lifeform]

As others have said, they have different roles and it is rarely helpful to directly compare such units.

Swordsmen are useful for clearing away swarms of mediocre one wound infantry. They are also expendable, which makes them good for tying up enemies, getting in the way, screening your army and blocking charge lanes. I find at least one such cheap throw away unit essential in any army.

I'd turn to Nihilators if I wanted a better quality unit able to combat higher defence targets and multi wound infantry.

[<Archangel>]

For eHexy, take swordsmen. Multiple 1 point stabs on high arm, 1 wound infantry is just nightmarishly fun to do. Alot of times Nihils for jam, swordsmen for plinking damage on before a big hitter.

I can't think of much high arm 1 wound infantry outside of cygnar that nihilators would not be able to kill.

I feel that swordsmen were made to take out only large base models like warbeasts and jacks because of the low mat hence pen strike but you cant get in enough attacks to do enough damage due to lack of reach.

[Kurgash]

I can't think of much high arm 1 wound infantry outside of cygnar that nihilators would not be able to kill.

I feel that swordsmen were made to take out only large base models like warbeasts and jacks because of the low mat hence pen strike but you cant get in enough attacks to do enough damage due to lack of reach.

You attack into a group of defensive lined infantry, be it Rhulic, Retribution, what have you. Charge Attack kills initial hit, berserk attack fails to kill the next. Swordsmen on the other hand, have to just hit and side step for another hit. Each model at best killing 2, 4 with blackspot.

Of course your mileage varies but I've found Nihilators better served for multiwound, heavy infantry killing and swordsmen for killing shield wall/defensive line light infantry.

[PG_Chris Cuevas]

I think about 8/10 times you're better served with nihilators. Tough is one of those factors in the game that your opponent simply can't plan around. You *will* curse the skies when you find yourself out of CMD with nihilators. Easy to do.

[Earthcrosser599]

Nihilators live longer, hit more accurately, and are better at engaging large amounts of enemies as well as attacking bigger targets. The Praetorian autopoint thing is cute but you're not going to get enough of them around an enemy heavy to take advantage of it, so you're usually better off combo striking. In which case the Nihilators are still better because they have reach and can get more attacks in.

A Nihilator swinging at a Black Spot'd unit will generally kill off more of the unit than a Praetorian since his only limiting factor is how many enemies he can reach.

I don't think I've used Praetorians ever since I got my Nihilators, outside of Zaal. Even then, I still had Nihilators in the list.

[jettzypher]

nihilators rule. after giving it some thought, im glad i went with a unit of them instead of the swordsmen. i think the thing that makes swordsmen a little better is higher cmd, two attacks straight up, and cheaper point base. other than that, i take tough and berserk over them any day of the week (and thats not because theyre all i have either). im even considering picking up a second unit of em, cause i dont know of any situation where id rather have swordsmen. plus, nihilators will hopefully be getting love soon(ish).

[Isante]

It depends on what you use them for in your list. I tend to run Nihilators mainly because they do a better job at jamming. I jam them down my opponents throat to force them to deal with it and help protect my Titans as they advance. I do like swordsmen as well but they don't jam near as well although they do have some matchups that will make your opponent cry.

[various]

It's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Swordsmen are better against Beasts/Jacks due to Penetrating Strike but Nihilators tend to be better at killing infantry. The UA on the Swordsmen make them very versatile and the mini Feat is awesome, but the Nihilators have a better MAT and can potentially chew through whole units of infantry. Swordsmen have a slightly higher armour but the Nihilators have Tough and Reach. The real problem with Nihilators is their CMD 7: if you've got a full size unit then you're very likely going to take casualties from Berserk once you get into combat, something that you never have to worry about with the Swordsmen. For me it depends on the opponent i'm facing, so i guess that there's no easy answer. Maybe a unit of each? Or just pick the models that you think look the best.

[Earthcrosser599]

It's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Swordsmen are better against Beasts/Jacks due to Penetrating Strike but Nihilators tend to be better at killing infantry.

I strongly disagree about the Swordsmen's ability to engage heavy targets. You aren't going to realistically average more than 4 swordsmen per heavy, maybe 5 if you're lucky. Autopointing them will net you 8-10 damage. That's pathetic. Against an ARM 19 target you can combo strike to average 3 damage per guy swinging, so 12ish damage all together. Which is the same individual damage output as the Nihilators, only they can get more guys swinging because they have reach. Against anything beyond exceptionally high armor targets, such as closed Devastators or Arcane Shield'd Centurions, the Nihilators are going to do better.

[PG_Blitzer]

Swordsmen all the way. They can jam more because of the larger CMD. They are better at board control, which is one of the main reasons to take a cheap single wound infantry unit. They are more versatile, two low pow attacks or one combo attack. Side step gets them places the Nihilators can't get.

eMakeda loves Swordsmen, they can clear charge lanes, then side step out of the way. eHexy with Ashen Veil and Black Spot works better with Swordsmen.

I love my Nihilators with Mordikaar and Zaal.

They do play quite different roles. If you want board control, take the Swordsmen. If you want potential in a small area, take Nihilators.

[Earthcrosser599]

Swordsmen all the way. They can jam more because of the larger CMD. They are better at board control, which is one of the main reasons to take a cheap single wound infantry unit. They are more versatile, two low pow attacks or one combo attack. Side step gets them places the Nihilators can't get.

eMakeda loves Swordsmen, they can clear charge lanes, then side step out of the way. eHexy with Ashen Veil and Black Spot works better with Swordsmen.

Sidestep gives them a 2" move, but Nihilators have reach, so they can move to the intended out-of-the-way location from the start. Why do Ashen Veil and Blackspot work better with the swordsmen? The Nihilators have the same defense, so Ashen Veil doesn't give them any less of a buff, and the 3" less CMD won't stop you from getting the most out of the debuff since if you absolutely need it you can run a guy out of formation if you have to. They essentially already have the second part of Black Spot via Berserk. I concede that in a few situations the Swordsmen are better at clogging up charge lanes and blocking off enemies since they have a small numeric advantage, but the Nihilators have a much better chance of surviving the stuff that would clear them out them since ARM 13 and Tough is usually better than ARM 14.

[PG_Blitzer]

They have 2 attacks, sidestepping off each attack. Attack - kill - Sidestep - Blackspot atk - Second initial atk - Sidestep - Blackspot atk. Swordsmen are moving 4" with auto damaging attacks on mini feat. So, that's 4" of movement, with 4 dead models per swordsmen.

Nihilators have 2" reach, with a very small control area.

Why is Ashen Veil better on Swordsmen? Because you can run swordsmen into the opponents army in a much larger area, then they have to deal with neg 2 to attacks throughout more of their army.

[Earthcrosser599]

They have 2 attacks, sidestepping off each attack. Attack - kill - Sidestep - Blackspot atk - Second initial atk - Sidestep - Blackspot atk. Swordsmen are moving 4" with auto damaging attacks on mini feat. So, that's 4" of movement, with 4 dead models per swordsmen.

Your opponent is going to have to go out of his way to set this up for you. Like grouping his models up in clusters of 2 with 2 inches between the two closest or lining them up single file.

Why is Ashen Veil better on Swordsmen? Because you can run swordsmen into the opponents army in a much larger area, then they have to deal with neg 2 to attacks throughout more of their army.

If you're just running the guys into their formation your command range is irrelevant.

[PG_Blitzer]

Your opponent is going to have to go out of his way to set this up for you. Like grouping his models up in clusters of 2 with 2 inches between the two closest or lining them up single file.

With that logic, reach and berserk are also pointless

If you're just running the guys into their formation your command range is irrelevant.

There is a big difference between running into someones army and being able to atk and make free strikes, and just standing there out of formation.

I'd recommend you actually play both units with eHexy instead of unsuccessfully trying to theory machine how it will go.

[GaspysInhaler]

I'm firmly in the nihilator camp -- for several reasons I'll outline here.

1. Nihilators are tough. This is an extremely powerful ability that can frustrate your opponent, particularly in scenario games when they are trying to clear you off of an objective. The net +1 ARM that swordsmen have does not overcome what is, for all intents and purposes, a 5+ invulnerable save. Factor in reveille from the Ty-Com, and you wipe out one of the main disadvantages of tough.

2. Nihilators have reach. Again, an extremely powerful ability that is unique to Nihilators over the swordsmen. During their activation, Nihilators have a walking 8" threat, and a charging 11" threat range, swordsmen have a walking 6.5" threat, and charging 9.5" theat range (technically 11.5" with sidestep, but they won't have the boosted damage roll on their 2nd MAT 6 attack-- which is an unboosted POW 9, which won't do much to heavier targets). Reach gives the Nihilators an inherent advantage in most circumstances in the game. Everything from attacking across certain terrain (linear obstacles, etc), to blocking charge lanes. It's much easier to "skirt around" .5" melee range of swordsmen than it is with 2" melee range of Nihilators.

I'm surprised someone earlier in the thread stated that swordsmen are superior for "board control". IMO You couldn't ask for better "board control" than a small-based tough unit with reach and berserk. Who cares about CMD 7 when you have reach? Just declare charges and run the unit leader where he needs to go in order to get the most mileage out of the unit.

3. Fearless is better than CMD 10 with re-roll. Yes, statistically the odds of failing a 10+ roll with a re-roll are very miniscule, but I'd rather have a fearless unit that is immune to terror, abomination, etc. Why take the risk, as the saying goes. Also, why are people comparing "out of command" radius, when you can't make attacks while out of command? Sure, it is nice to engage things while out of command (another advantage to the Nihilators), but the overall point is moot since u can't damage anything while out of command.

4. IMO Nihilators have more synergy with Skorne casters, for the most part. pMakeda's feat states that returned models have to forfeit their normal movement (reach helps a lot here), eMakeda's feat makes Nihilators immune to knockdown which syngergises well with their Tough rule (along with boosted attack rolls), Zaal's Last Stand is very powerful with Reach + Berserk. pHexy has Death March, which is better on Nihilators for MAT 9 + Vengeance, IMO. As a dedicated Cryx and Skorne player, I can tell you that the difference between MAT 6 and MAT 7 when it comes to vengeance is significant. Iron Flesh on Nihilators is better than on swordsmen, again due to reach (Nihilator walking has 7" threat, swordsman has 5.5"), the armor difference is negligible when we are talking about single wnd infantry.


This is not to say that I don't prefer swordsmen in certain cases (cheap fuel for Anc. Guardians/ Hakaar), but unfortunately they have been replaced by Slingers in their traditional fodder role. To be honest, I just dislike swordsmen overall. Penetrating strike is a corner case ability (1 damage pt to jacks and beasts, really??), a Nihilator normal attack is as powerful as a swordsman combo-strike. Auto-plinking for 1 damage is OK, but it is a once-per-game ability. I just feel Nihilators are by an large, preferable to swordsmen.

[<Archangel>]

Yay! Nihilators are better it's settled thanks for your input everyone.

[Glasskin]

Here's my take. Nihilators and Swordsmen are subtly different jamming units good at removing other light infantry.

1) Offensively, Nihilators and Swordsmen are pretty comparable. Nihilators have a longer threat range with Reach. Swordsmen have more flexibility in positioning because they have two attacks and Side-Step rather than Berserk and Reach. Under a Mat buff, both units will do just fine at removing 1-wound infantry. Having multiple attacks actually gives Swordsmen slightly better accuracy against targets with high-end Def, but not against the very top of the curve.

2) In terms of jamming ability, Tough is worth more than 12 bodies, but CMD 10 lets Swordsmen occupy literally twice the area with bases. If you factor in Reach, it's a little more even, but not everything takes Free Strikes. Swordsmen are also good at spreading out after they hit the enemy with Side Step to get exactly the coverage you want. If you need to cover a wide area (I usually like to), Swordsmen are better. If you really need your guys to last, use Nihilators.

If you need a small area jammed for several turns, use Nihilators. If you want a wide area jammed for 1 turn, pick Swordsmen. Which you want will depend on your personal play style and your list. I actually think Swordsmen and Nihilators are pretty well balanced against each other.

I use Swordsmen a lot more often than Nihilators, because I own the Swordsmen models. After proxying Nihilators a bunch, I found them similar enough that I decided to expand my collection in other directions. I like the Swordsmen's ability to occupy a big area, and I find them totally adequate to the jobs I give them: jam enemies and eliminate one-wound infantry.

I do send both units against heavies, but not in hope of doing any damage unless I'm running a caster with a solid damage buff (ie Xerxis and Zaal). Swordsmen really aren't much better against heavies than most infantry.

[jettzypher]

i feel nihilators are a threat for being very aggressive and offensive, whereas youd typically use swordsmen as a defensive line. sometimes that can kill stuff, but i personally dont think theyre anywhere near as good at it as nihilators are.

[Jaradakar]

I'm going to have to agree with Earthcrosser599 (Sorry PG_Blitzer) but I've often found that after a swordsmen has hit someone 2.5" is not far enough to get them into range of another enemy model -- or I can do it once and now the swordsmen is done.

I personally find Reach, Tough, higher mat, Berserk and stronger attack to be way more effective in tar pitting or attacking (Reach is just that good -- it's easier to get more models around a heavy if that's what you're doing [not effective tactic imo]).

You also have to worry about the officer getting sniped and then no more sidestep.

I know of people who love there swordsmen and have made good use of them (one of the best I think is 10 bodies for 6 pts) but in that cases you're just using them as fresh meat.

Now to be fair, I've run them way less but from my experience (which is purely anecdotal) nihilators have always come out on top when it comes to performance.

One of my latest list I'm going to try using them -- will see if I start having more success with them (Makeda 2 list)

[Earthcrosser599]

I'd recommend you actually play both units with eHexy instead of unsuccessfully trying to theory machine how it will go.

That's a pretty bold statement. I used to make heavy use of my Swordsmen in most of my lists, eHexy included, and was a big naysayer against the Nihilators until I actually got them (it took a while, admittedly) and played them in a few games. Now 99% of the time I can't justify the Swordsmen because the Nihilators are pretty much better in all aspects. Even in eHexeris lists.

[Centa]

I am in the Nihilators camp too. For me they are the better choice. Since i got them i have never used my Swordsmen again.

There are two main reasons why i prefer them over Swordsmen.
- Threat range, 9,5" form Swordsmen is not enough. The 1,5" more that Nihilators have make a big difference. If Nihilators would be just SPD 5 i would think about using Swordsmen again
- Reach. They can engage more models, and deny more space via freestrikes. Also a P+S12 freestrike is more dangerous then a P+S9.

Though, Berserk, +1MAT are just icing on the cake. And the CMD7 was never a big deal for me. When you place your leader in the middle of the unit they can swarm out almost 17" (1" base size of the leader, 2x ~7" between bases, 1" base size). They can cover 21" with freestrikes coz of their reach. Swordsmen with CMD10 can cover 24" thats not really much more. Seriously, it shouldnt happen often that you charge outside of your leaders CMD range, as long as you can move him too. If they would be CMD 5 i would see a problem, but 7 is still a huge area to place your models within.
The only advantage Swordsmen have is Sidestep, but without reach its hard to get to a model you havent allrdy engaged with another Swordsmen, here again, charge range of 9,5" is not enough, imho.

Killing your own models with berserk isnt nice, but taking a charge because your threat range is just 9,5" will cause much more casualties. And you still have to hit your own guys, and fail the tough roll. Thats a 50:50 chance the model, targeted by his own guy, will survive.

Swordsmen have been nice as a tarpit unit, that can deal some dmg if they survive. But since the Slingers are released, i think they can do that job better. And against jacks and constructs they will do more dmg then Swordsmen do, just because you do not have to get them all in a 0.5" melee range.

I would love to field the Swordsmen more often, coz i like the models, but Nihilators are much better in almost every situation.

[Rynth]

2) CMD 10 lets Swordsmen occupy literally twice the area with bases. If you factor in Reach, it's a little more even....

No, unless I'm missing something.
12 models vs 10 models don't double the space filled. The larger area and lower reach just means there will be more safe areas inside a Praetorian "cloud," especially when one of the Praetorians doesn't have a melee range.

CMD 7 means about a 15" circle centered on the Nihilator leader. Since they only need a sliver of their base in the CMD area add an extra inch for the base and then two more for Reach. That makes a circle that could be 21" from threatened extreme to threatened extreme.
CMD 10 means about a 21" circle centered on the Praetorian Officer. Since they only need a sliver of their base in the CMD area add an extra inch for the base and then a half inch for melee area. That makes a circle that could be 24" from threatened extreme to threatened extreme.

As to the general topic:
Nihilators are typically the better buy because they can do a lot of the Swordsmen's job at about 80% effectiveness while Swordsmen can't match Tough, threat range or accuracy and/or power.

[Glasskin]

No, unless I'm missing something.
12 models vs 10 models don't double the space filled. The larger area and lower reach just means there will be more safe areas inside a Praetorian "cloud,"...

That's true. A single Nihilator can cover more space, so there are no holes in the engagement zone.

When I said "double," I was talking about Area, as in Pi R Squared. Calculated that way, Swordsmen can put bases in just under twice the area that Nihilators can.

I think I'll retract it, though. I'm rarely spreading my infantry out through the whole circle unless they're Nihilators, so it's not very useful to think in terms of the whole area. Thinking just about distance from the leader is more useful, and Swordsmen only have a slight advantage there.

For a while, up until the past few months, one of my regular opponents usually fielded a caster with Ghost Walk. Against that, the Swordsmen's ability to fill a 11.5" ish radius with bases did more for me than a nearly equal area threatened by free strikes.

So Swordsmen are still more flexible, IMO, but definitely not as much as my first post made them out to be.

[Leeb]

The most important point made in this thread is where are the skills coming from. Nialators always have tough and berserk. Swordsmen only have sidestep with the UA. A good opponent will put a premium on the leader with ranged which is hard to stop.

I played swordsmen alot and thought they were well priced and better then nialators for a long time, but after alot of games I have to go Nialators all the way. I have never said I wish these nialators were swordsmen, but every time I have swordsmen on the table I wish I had tough or reach.

Against skilled opponents tough and reach are a huge benefit. Side step and penetrating strike- not so much.

[Sygerrik]

Nihilators are better than Swordsmen in every circumstance bar one-- sheer volume of bodies for souls-- and slingers are better than Swordsmen there. My Swordsmen live on my shelf.

[Skalldur]

Depends on what caster, really...

Hypothetically nihilators are better, but in timed turns, where u have to do things quick etc, sometimes swordsmen offer a way better choice, nihilators require a lot of setting up etc to maximise there potential.

The tough argument is ok, but am 14 is where aoes become less effective.


I tend to take the ones that fit the theme etc. Emak, pmak for swordsmen rasheth and naresh for nihis

Some casters i take both... mordikaar

I play trolls alot and i can tell you, that swordsmen deffo are better IMHO then nihilators when ur opponent has a lot of tough. Because if he toughs out, that means a second models can take another swing an effectively get more from side step.

Also if someone stacks up loads of armour, its quite funny to knock off a few points with penetrating strike, and the minifeat even effects cryx.

Just my 2pence

[various]

Recently my solution has been to take a unit of each as they both bring something good to the table. Personally i'm not a huge fan of max unit size Nihiators (as you're very likely to take some Berserk casualties once they start swinging) so i've been taking min Nihilators and max Swordsmen+UA in the same list. 13pts isn't too bad for the package and you get the best of both worlds. Sometimes i'll let thematic reasons decide which unit that i take: if i'm using Naaresh Nihilators 'feel' better, if i'm using pMakeda (don't have her Epic version yet) then Swordsmen are a better fit. Mind you, i am prepared to but a cool theme ahead of effectiveness in casual play.
Honestly this is starting to sound like the never ending argument that's on the Cryx forum (my other Faction) about which is better: Banethralls or Baneknights, it's been raging forever and there's no clear decision in sight. In the end it comes down to variables such as playstyle, meta composition, force composition, the scenario in question, and Caster/Lock choice. A very simplistic (and almost certainly wrong) way of looking at it can be done by a points comparison: 10 Nihilators and 10 Swordsmen+UA both come to 8pts and therefore are about as good as each other.

[Earthcrosser599]

Personally i'm not a huge fan of max unit size Nihiators (as you're very likely to take some Berserk casualties once they start swinging) so i've been taking min Nihilators and max Swordsmen+UA in the same list.

The min unit is still workable, but the berserk casualties don't come up for me as often as they could in other metas because mine usually get shot up on the way in, to where only about half the squad actually makes it to the enemy. If there's not a lot of shooting in your area a min unit sounds better to me.

Honestly this is starting to sound like the never ending argument that's on the Cryx forum (my other Faction) about which is better: Banethralls or Baneknights, it's been raging forever and there's no clear decision in sight.

Except that this thread isn't a bunch of people backing Swordsmen and a bunch of people backing Nihilators; it's most posters backing the Nihilators and one or two people favoring the Swordsmen.

[Carrington]

How about beast handlers for jamming with bodies:
Reach, anatomical precision, and 1/2 a point each...
Seems like a fairly good mix of the two...

[whats82]

How about beast handlers for jamming with bodies:
Reach, anatomical precision, and 1/2 a point each...
Seems like a fairly good mix of the two...

There was a thread a while ago on using pain givers as combat troops. A lot of players have tried that to mixed/moderate results. They certainly can do it but much lower MAT and PS means their fs threaten a lot less. They are very good at tying up enemy beasts though because inflict pain on a fs can be very annoying.

[Sygerrik]

If Paingivers weren't FA 2 I'd take 10 units. 30 points, 60 bodies, all with anatomical precision. Give them Fury and Xerxis's feat and they hit as hard as Knights Exemplar, if a bit less accurately. Cheap souls, too, and fury control-- you can Inflict Pain to force cutting/frenzies.

[Earthcrosser599]

There was a thread a while ago on using pain givers as combat troops. A lot of players have tried that to mixed/moderate results. They certainly can do it but much lower MAT and PS means their fs threaten a lot less. They are very good at tying up enemy beasts though because inflict pain on a fs can be very annoying.

Hah, that was my thread. In practice it works okay as long as your expectations aren't too high. Also, Watt said it was doable with eHexeris and Black Spot.

[Kurgash]

If Paingivers weren't FA 2 I'd take 10 units. 30 points, 60 bodies, all with anatomical precision. Give them Fury and Xerxis's feat and they hit as hard as Knights Exemplar, if a bit less accurately. Cheap souls, too, and fury control-- you can Inflict Pain to force cutting/frenzies.

Morghoul 1, Naaresh, those tiers make FA:U. There now, have at it!

[<Archangel>]

What about PMakeda carnage+feat more accurate and if you don't kill all the guys in one unit theyre coming back.

[Sanctjud]

Only reason I'm not in the Nihilator Camp is that pHexeris doesn't use them in his theme list...nor both Morghouls... :-/

[whats82]

Only reason I'm not in the Nihilator Camp is that pHexeris doesn't use them in his theme list...nor both Morghouls... :-/

So you're in the tier camp instead.