Circle Gargantuan Spoilers

[Drzombieface]

I question this claim, seeing as only one other gargantuan has been seen and it is generally frowned upon. For all we know both the Archangel and Mammoth are Stormwall-level of good. If that is the case, then I think having Sacred Ward instead of Spell Ward wouldn't make the Woldwrath any better than them. On the other hand, they may both be Mountain King level of good, in which case the Woldwrath is still a model with a large niche, but still a niche model (that is a model that I'll take IF I'm taking a spell-heavy army, which is about 1/3 of the time). Hardly GREAT IMO, but solidly good.

With the nasty things Circle can do with its beasts and spells, I'm pretty sure the QQ would rain down from the heavens if Spell Ward wasn't there. I'm just glad the Woldwrath doesn't have Geomancy...

Sorry but this is a silly non-argument when you look at what the model actually does for all that support. Including the MtK generally means you had to drop 2 Dires from a beast brick list. That leaves you with the 20 pts that would have been "something else" (like Mulg+Mauler) and the ancillary beast brick support grouping of KSB+UA, Janissa+EBDT which is a 17 pt module.

Swapping in MtK means you generally lose between 10-15 boxes of total health, at least 1 fantastic animus (Rage, Primal), a significant amount of MAT and DEF, 5 Fury generation (more if you want to leave him as a viable transfer target), and several pretty integral warlock interactions like the extra movement during Crusher and Goads. In return you "gain" the Spray, ARM and melee damage equal to Mulg (but not really if you factor in the loss of a buffing animus), and base Gargantuan rules/power attacks.

I think it's pretty funny you tell us to "trust you, MtK is fine" because I really doubt you've done playtesting enough to match what the entire trollblood community has already done, where the general findings are that he's a niche model that brings something unique to at least one lesser-regarded warlock, but overall the huge base leaves him deceptively vulnerable to attack and he functions best as a second-line attrition model, not a primary offensive/defensive piece (which is fine, but he's not costed this way and none of the other Colossals/Gargs released to date have this issue to this extent, and for a $135 price tag you expect more than a benchwarmer).

I think everyone will agree that he is not unplayable, but there was a palpable sense of disappointment with the extent to which 'Kriel Stone Tax' punched his statline in the face and his lack of special abilities beyond 'crap whelps'. Equally or even more telling was the sigh of relief exhibited by the other Hordes factions when they saw the Wold Wrath's statline and figured that MtK would be at the lower end of the Gargantuan power curve and that quite possibly Mammoth and Archangel would have a stronger baseline/special abilities.

So I'd tone down the all-knowingness, either that or I eagerly await a couple dozen battle reports with findings that are uniquely different than what the Trollbloods community has discovered to date.

Don't exactly know what I've done to earn random hostility, but ok.

I've already complained to my fellow players/friends about the Mountain King more than I've seen everyone else on the forums put together. I'm just trying not to DOOOOOMM every new release like I have been.


Maybe I just can't get over the fact that the MtK can flail about with 7 P+S 23 attacks (Rage+ KSB Elder), and with eDoomy, every one of those attack rolls is boosted, not to mention a free charge or trample over a mass of infantry. There's also the funny little thing where the Mountain King is SPD 8 on eDoomshaper's feat turn, with a 13" threat range. Can anyone say Flying Mountain?

[sourclams]

Don't exactly know what I've done to earn random hostility, but ok.

Because your white-knightery comes across as 'don't bother with the facts, trust me, I'm a doctor.'

Maybe I just can't get over the fact that the MtK can flail about with 7 P+S 23 attacks (Rage+ KSB Elder), and with eDoomy, every one of those attack rolls is boosted, not to mention a free charge or trample over a mass of infantry.

Mulg can do all of that with his affinity, still have a fist attack, has the opportunity to achieve significant non-linear threat vectors through Goad, reliably hits Def17, and can actually get a trample off, unlike a Huge-based model. With Regen, Magic weapon, and 8 points left over.

If you want to talk up MtK you have to do so in the context of boosted sprays and a lot of 2nd line meat that dudes like Gunny can hide behind. Because in terms of big number generation, Mulg outperforms him.

[Drzombieface]

Because your white-knightery comes across as 'don't bother with the facts, trust me, I'm a doctor.'



Mulg can do all of that with his affinity, still have a fist attack, has the opportunity to achieve significant non-linear threat vectors through Goad, reliably hits Def17, and can actually get a trample off, unlike a Huge-based model. With Regen, Magic weapon, and 8 points left over.

If you want to talk up MtK you have to do so in the context of boosted sprays and a lot of 2nd line meat that dudes like Gunny can hide behind. Because in terms of big number generation, Mulg outperforms him.

If you take into account every single one of my previous comments throughout the forums on the MtK, you will see I say Mulg > MtK.

See, I try to turn a new leaf by not DOOMing the MtK in one or two posts, and every other one of my dozens of MtK hate- posts gets ignored and I'm called a white- knight.

There is no justice on the interwebs.



Mulg gets a fist attack, yes, but the MtK's fists are as strong as Mulg's club. Mulg's damage output with the same rolls between the two beasts will always be 2 damage lower, because one of Mulg's attacks is P+S 19, the other is P+S 17. That could matter. It won't more often than not, but when has everything gone according to plan?

If Mulg's affinity triggers, chances are the dice gods aren't with you that day anyway. As for Regen, see my previous statement on the fact the MtK can poop out 2 whelps every time it's pinged if you take whelps in addition to the MtK, and after there's 10-15 of them surrounding the MtK, he can eat them all. On top of other beasts being able to eat what's left.

[PG_The_Veneficus]

if that is its stats then im excited about this one too...

on the mountain king, you cant really dif that is its stats then its more colossal like in that it has its 29 or so points of awesome in one model

on the mountain king, you cant really diss it until we see what support models it might get in the gargantuans book, it was more then likely play tested with other new models that the trolls will also get. My money is on it being disgustingly good with one of the other new models we are yet to see.

[Cannibalbob]

Mulg gets a fist attack, yes, but the MtK's fists are as strong as Mulg's club. Mulg's damage output with the same rolls between the two beasts will always be 2 damage lower, because one of Mulg's attacks is P+S 19, the other is P+S 17. That could matter. It won't more often than not, but when has everything gone according to plan?

The mountain king has to hit his target to put out damage anywhere near what mulg can do. Mulg also boasts a magic weapon. The mountain king is completely reliant upon a warlock or the army being able to set up a target so that he can hit it (either through an accuracy boost spell or some sort of knock-down). Mulg reliably hits most targets by himself.

[viperidae99]

This looks cool. Can't wait til the Mammoth and Legion one are spoiled, so I can read arguing about the Mountain King being underpowered, twice more.

Not that I necessarily disagree without seeing it on the table, it's just getting a bit old.

[Cannibalbob]

My money is on it being disgustingly good with one of the other new models we are yet to see.

I'll take that bet. My money is on it being in the same boat as the Skinner and the Sluggers.

In my opinion a 20pt model should be fairly self-sufficient.

[PG_Viper114]

I just look at this and think, "Why? Why isn't the MK as good? If only they'd maybe change the MAT to 6...". What a gyp.

[Loki77515]

on the mountain king, you cant really diss it until we see what support models it might get in the gargantuans book, it was more then likely play tested with other new models that the trolls will also get. My money is on it being disgustingly good with one of the other new models we are yet to see.

We most certainly can denounce it before seeing what else is in the next book.

A model should not require another model in order to work well. If that was the case then why not put those two models together in the same box and sell them together?

[jvaran]

We most certainly can denounce it before seeing what else is in the next book.

A model should not require another model in order to work well. If that was the case then why not put those two models together in the same box and sell them together?

Since when? How useful is something like a Blighted Nyss Shepherd without a warbeast? Or a Squire by itself? There are plenty of models that are useful only in combination with others...

[Loki77515]

Since when? How useful is something like a Blighted Nyss Shepherd without a warbeast? Or a Squire by itself? There are plenty of models that are useful only in combination with others...

Okay, whoa, that isn't fair at all.

You need a warcaster to play the game, but you don't need a squire. You need warbeasts but you don't need a Shepherd.

Now, imagine if you needed a Shepherd to use Warbeasts and you will see the problem I have with the Mountain King. He doesn't operate well on his own even in a faction with 11 different warlocks. He operates fairly well with one of them (eDoomshaper, Grim doesn't count since he makes everything good). That is pathetic.

The squire is good with any warcaster. The shepherd helps out with any warbeast. Are you telling me there is ONE model in the next book the Mountain King will be good with? That is a terrible example.

[Cannibalbob]

Since when? How useful is something like a Blighted Nyss Shepherd without a warbeast? Or a Squire by itself? There are plenty of models that are useful only in combination with others...

I understand your point, but you just listed support models - which by definition require something to support. The Mountain King is not a support model.

[HellecticMojo]

I have a reason to put a shepard in even without warbeasts. It's a one pt friendly faction filler.

[bakaryu]

I simply cannot see any reason why the Mountain King is the only colossal/gargantuan in the game (that we have seen so far) that is MAT5, when even the Woldwrath who arguably would prefer to be sitting back crapping out Kreuger templates everywhere and casting his animus every turn comes both with AOE4 knockdown templates on models he hits in melee combat AND MAT6 to boot.

The only model in the game before the MtK who was melee focused and comes with MAT5 that I can recall is the Titan Sentry, and even then you could argue that his focus is on defense rather than offense.

Yes we have access to Primal, but only on an 11pt character beast and that means your 20pt MtK is going to be doing nothing in your next turn except probably eating one of your own dudes.

[Benj]

The only model in the game before the MtK who was melee focused and comes with MAT5 that I can recall is the Titan Sentry, and even then you could argue that his focus is on defense rather than offense.

There's also the Rhinodon, who I assume got MAT5 much for the same reason that the MK did, Amuck + Sweep/Thresher. Hasn't worked too well for the Rhino though.

[Hug a Gorax]

With regard to MAT 5, is there any reason you can't play "feed the troll" with a healthy selection of cheap KD generators (two-fisted warbeasts chucking stuff into the Mountain King, or at least within 2" of him)? Activate him last and squash all those bruised DEF 5 people?

[Crate123]

With regard to MAT 5, is there any reason you can't play "feed the troll" with a healthy selection of cheap KD generators (two-fisted warbeasts chucking stuff into the Mountain King, or at least within 2" of him)? Activate him last and squash all those bruised DEF 5 people?

Thats an awful intricate setup to make a 20 point model work. There are ways to make him work, but there are not ways of making him work without a ton of help from his buddies. At 20 points that is not acceptable.

[Drzombieface]

The mountain king is completely reliant upon a warlock or the army being able to set up a target so that he can hit it

Well, I guess it's a good thing you have a Warlock in every army then.

[sourclams]

With regard to MAT 5, is there any reason you can't play "feed the troll" with a healthy selection of cheap KD generators (two-fisted warbeasts chucking stuff into the Mountain King, or at least within 2" of him)? Activate him last and squash all those bruised DEF 5 people?

The Mauler is the only model that can 2-hand throw with a reasonable threat radius thanks to his chain attack (and it's also not a prohibitively expensive module like Axer + EBDT). Generally if the Mauler just successfully charged an enemy heavy and is going to have an opportunity to chain attack, the the Mauler could also simply kill it himself.

[MathPasta]

Its what I call, Is the model a lemon? Or is it lemonade?

Because Trolls can easily make a lemon into lemonade. But do they want to when they can make lemonade into lemonade pie?

Some combinations can allow Trolls to turn Lemons directly into lemonade pie, but those are rare, and from what I hear the Mountain King doesn't have any.

[Cannibalbob]

Well, I guess it's a good thing you have a Warlock in every army then.

And there are also plenty of beasts that do not suffer from requiring the warlock to hold their hand simply to function.

[wickedgrey]

This looks cool. Can't wait til the Mammoth and Legion one are spoiled, so I can read arguing about the Mountain King being underpowered, twice more.

Not that I necessarily disagree without seeing it on the table, it's just getting a bit old.

For reals.

I think it is interesting that they have given circle some pretty nice guns on both the BE and the wrath.**I think it will open up some interesting list possibilities.

[PG_TrollSlayer]

Alright, for some reason some people what to argue that the MtK is alright because if you do/add this, and this and this...and take this guy, he will do fine. Sure, we trolls can layer on the buffs to turn any piddly little trooper into a gung-ho berserker, but that is a late game, 'oh, crap I'm in trouble', roll the dice kinda thing. We don't intentionally look to do that. The fact that you HAVE to do that to make a GARGANTUAN passable...in MELEE...in TROLLBLOODS...is ridiculous. That is what people are complaining about.

When the cards were spoiled at L&L, I kept looking to make sure that I was seeing the front and back of both cards because I was like "where is the rest of it?" It looked like the back of the Mauler card, our most basic heavy, an animus and three abilities. Nothing on the fists, nothing on the roar, he has stalactites for teeth but no bite attack, and his damage output is sub-par to Mulg.

[bakaryu]

There's also the Rhinodon, who I assume got MAT5 much for the same reason that the MK did, Amuck + Sweep/Thresher. Hasn't worked too well for the Rhino though.

It is also worth pointing out that you are one point shy of getting three Rhinidons for the same cost as a Mountain King

[HellecticMojo]

For reals.

I think it is interesting that they have given circle some pretty nice guns on both the BE and the wrath.**I think it will open up some interesting list possibilities.

fairly immobile guns atleast for circle standards too.

With E Baldur, I'm wondering if PP is trying to work on a static Circle design.

[phillipsjr4]

While it looks interesting, the inability to be targeted by friendly spells really pulls it down what another Garg can be buffed up to. It's much more of a utility piece than a beater- we have a 12 point model with the same pow, one higher mat, and same number of attacks as this guy (Ghetorix- one less attack for not getting the two fist pumps) who can get fully circle buffed and teleported etc. This thread has been almost entirely Mountain King complaints so I just say to them: take your power 23 hits and run with it guys. Imagine this model fighting the stormwall. All 6 attacks will do 42 damage. Now imagine him fighting a stormwall with Arcane Shield up. Now we're down to 24 damage. Maybe not apples to apples but my point is this thing sacrifices a lot of offense for his utility.

[sourclams]

What...other guns within Circle can the WW's be compared to? The only one with even respectable shooting is the stone shrimp, and only because extra die vs upkeep models.

[wargrim]

Poor Pureblood, RAT5 with POW14 SPR10 isn't even respectable -_-

[Crate123]

While it looks interesting, the inability to be targeted by friendly spells really pulls it down what another Garg can be buffed up to. It's much more of a utility piece than a beater- we have a 12 point model with the same pow, one higher mat, and same number of attacks as this guy (Ghetorix- one less attack for not getting the two fist pumps) who can get fully circle buffed and teleported etc. This thread has been almost entirely Mountain King complaints so I just say to them: take your power 23 hits and run with it guys. Imagine this model fighting the stormwall. All 6 attacks will do 42 damage. Now imagine him fighting a stormwall with Arcane Shield up. Now we're down to 24 damage. Maybe not apples to apples but my point is this thing sacrifices a lot of offense for his utility.

I can take mulg and have pow 23 hits as well, why would I pay another 8 points for the mountain king ?
I think trolls would have loved a utility piece, kicking *** is something we do fairly well already without buying a 20 point model that isnt any better at it than the beasts we already have.

[HellecticMojo]

It's much more of a utility piece than a beater- we have a 12 point model with the same pow, one higher mat, and same number of attacks as this guy (Ghetorix- one less attack for not getting the two fist pumps) who can get fully circle buffed and teleported etc.

It's the same comparative situation with Mulg and MK, except having a utility piece really allow you to be effective at more stages of the game. Almost every turn Wold Wrath can contribute for your victory, without punching things.

Lightning that creates a template against infantry models to deny board, knock down fists to help hit things better and go pretty far with it's 4 fury, and an animus that helps out the army.

The whole spell ward thing's the divide, but considering how big he is as a spell target, I think being unable to be debuffed is a marginal upside rather than a downside.

Circle got a toolbox, trolls got a golden hammer, squishy, not much better, and more expensive.

[lastspartacus]

I was ruminating over spell ward as well, as how on something that points expensive its actually a lot more valuable than on another model, at least.

[Sanguinary Dan]

I'd say a lot of the complaints so far simply prove PP's assertion correct. You really don't have to buy a Colossal or Gargantuan if you don't want to. From what I can see the Woldwraths biggest downside is that you can't repair him without Baldur. Okay, so you could have your second set of Shifting Stones follow him around for the one time you'll activate them before him. And then you'll roll a 1. And while I really like pBaldur, I'm guessing there are a few folks out there that don't like him quite so much. On the upside he can activate first without any need to worry about missing a buff from the lock or whatever. And he can turn Druids into a fair equivalent of an ATGM. Almost. Sort of. Well... Not exactly. But better than anything else we've got.

Who am I kidding? I like him. I'm gonna buy him. And if he gets his big stony butt shot off all the time he'll still look great on my shelf.

[maddermax]

We most certainly can denounce it before seeing what else is in the next book.

A model should not require another model in order to work well. If that was the case then why not put those two models together in the same box and sell them together?

Lots of models need support to operate effectively. Lots of models are improved significantly in combination with other models. This is no different.

Meanwhile, this thread is about the wold wrath, so getting back to that, it looks pretty solid. Spell ward is both a blessing and a curse, and that gun looks a little unwieldy for placing templates in effective locations. The animus with the various magic attacks circle has will be extremely nasty, though to be effective he'll have to be very close to enemy lines, and a concentrated effort will still kill him even as tough as he is. It'll be Interesting to see how he works on the tabletop.

[kaneblaise]

The whole spell ward thing's the divide, but considering how big he is as a spell target, I think being unable to be debuffed is a marginal upside rather than a downside.

If only there was a unit that you would be taking to synergize with the Woldwrath's animus that could provide the upside of Spell Ward without preventing buffs... The fact is that Druids of Orboros will be in almost every list that the Woldwrath is included in and their countermagic could have done this anyway. I like the Woldwrath and will get him eventually and will play him in some lists (especially if the tournament scene upscales to 75 points), but saying Spell Ward is a benefit is just not true in this case.

[sourclams]

Lots of models need support to operate effectively. Lots of models are improved significantly in combination with other models. This is no different.

It's pretty different because anything that buffs the MtK into 'good' territory would put the other warbeasts into freakin' fantastic territory. Unless it's some stupid thing that 'only works with the Amuck animus' in which case the warbeast is now 20 + x points, and paying an even further tax to field the MtK is just bad design.

Rhinodon is a good analogue; Mat 5 P&S (can't remember, think it's 14): Xerxis can Fury for +3 Dam and feat for additional die, Handlers can Enrage it for free charge and +2 Str, now it's a P&S 19 weaponmaster with superthresh and boosted attack rolls!!

...And yet nobody ever takes it because although that's not bad, the same buffs on one of the more commonly fielded heavies would turn them into a combat god capable of removing anything from the table.

PP obviously feels Amuck+Thresh is a crazy good ability worth 1-2 MAT tax; either the global meta is drastically different than their playtests or they just keep erring cautiously.

[santospr]

Amazing how MK hate flows into a general woldwrath spoiler thread. Lets focus on the topic and keep the disapointment of the MK in the trollblood forums.

(Mweh)

[wickedgrey]

What...other guns within Circle can the WW's be compared to? The only one with even respectable shooting is the stone shrimp, and only because extra die vs upkeep models.

I was thinking about the BE.

I have no real sense of how it would play (I'm still at the "eKaya with a bunch of beasts" stage with my circle; still need to build my druids), but BE+WW+shrimp and some support would give a circle list that doesn't really feel like one ("Guns! Wat?").