Cygnarian Crimes

[MathPasta]

The Protectorate Burns the "Guilty"
Khador chains its criminals to dangerous artifacts
Cryx is Cryx
The Retribution abuses its souless
Trolls use horrific monsters for their wars, and recentcly released dangerous monsters
Scorne tortures baby elephants SO much that their pain becomes physical. And then sends a fat guy to sit on them.
Everblight mutates the innocent
Pigs create frankenstien abominations
The Circle are child kidnapping savages that do plenty of horrific things

What are Cygnars recent comparable horrific crimes? Being kinda jerkish to trolls does not count (Thats just idiocy on Letos part). Neither does slightly sketchy Squire development.

Because they just come off as the Mary sues/ Good guys of Warmachine in my opinion.

[Lanz]

They are the mary-sue good guys.

In a setting where most of the factions are shades of evil, there has to be at least one mostly-good faction for the players who want to play the true-blue good guys.

Also, Everblight does not blight innocents.Everblight blights everyone. Not that the Nyss were 'innocents' to begin with.

[Scottl1]

I don't know how mary sue they are when they have folks like Cain, Sloan, etc. lol
Oh you go assassinate this kid cause he MIGHT decide he wants to be king. lol
I also don't think it was just being jerkish to trolls. lol Leto straight up broke his word to the trolls after putting them in the way of Cryx and Khador. lol
Cygnar has shown they will do whatever it takes to win.

[raincaller]

also the whole arrest all the menites in cygnar and ship them to internment camps thing is hardly a "good" thing to do.

[Da-Rock]

So far its been pretty weak in comparison to other Factions. Cygnar is the closest thing to good guys

[King-of-Storms]

Cygnar ARE the good guys, the boys in blue and they got a Swan as a nation's symbol for Morrow's sake. Certianly not a symbol of hate, fear and bigotry say like Menoth's...nor are they bullying, butchering and destroying their regional neighbors for the sake of old glories *coughs* Khador *coughs* and Cryx. Well that one is too easy, undead are inherently evil.

The only crime Cygnar has committed is letting Vinter get away with murder and putting Stryker in charge for military advisory. Seriously?

[Scottl1]

Cygnar are just as callous to those who are different as any other faction. At least other factions are honest about it. lol
The closest this setting has to disney nice guy is Trolls.

[DrBaltar]

Cygnar ARE the good guys,...

I dont think that any Troll would agree on this!^^ Cygnar betrayed the Trolls (NQ5 Bond of Brothers).

[FearLord]

I don't know how mary sue they are when they have folks like Cain, Sloan, etc. lol
Oh you go assassinate this kid cause he MIGHT decide he wants to be king. lol
I also don't think it was just being jerkish to trolls. lol Leto straight up broke his word to the trolls after putting them in the way of Cryx and Khador. lol
Cygnar has shown they will do whatever it takes to win.

Leto put them in the way of the Skorne - they already lived in the Thornwood. But he did actually relocate them from a warzone, which is more than any other human has ever done for the Kriels...

Don't get me wrong, Cygnar aren't whiter than white, but barring some disreputable individuals (mostly those in the 4th Army and the nobility that still serve Vinter), they are generally on the side of justice...

Potential crimes of Cygnar:

-Invasion of the Protectorate of Menoth
-Imprisonment of Menites in Cygnar
-Mistreatment of the Trolls
-Abandonment of Llael to its fate.

And all of these can a) be justified as difficult decisions that needed to be made for the good of Cygnar and b) are much much more lenient than what most of the other nations would have done in the same situation...

[Stephan Garmark]

I like that the factions arent black and white, Cygnar has plenty of skeletons in the closet, id say the complete abandonment of Llael and putting Menites into concentration camps are probably the worst things under Leto.
Also the fact that Cygnar is obviously a military dictatorship kinda defeats the "good guys" argument.

[cargils02]

well you cant say they abandoned lael they fought in defence of the region and taking a huge amount of losses in the process mabye they would of succeded if lael's army wasnt so lax plus it didnt help matters when other conflicts elswhere forced them pull out to defend their own borders

[FearLord]

well you cant say they abandoned lael they fought in defence of the region and taking a huge amount of losses in the process mabye they would of succeded if lael's army wasnt so lax plus it didnt help matters when other conflicts elswhere forced them pull out to defend their own borders

They obviously didn't abandon it completely, but before the war ended, Cygnar was forced to pull back to defend its own borders, leaving the resistance to its fate...

[Bladestorm]

It's not like the trolls held up there end of the bargain fully either - they came for the land years sooner than originally agreed. I don't think any of us players would argue that they did so for good reason (nobody knew the Skorne would be a whole freaking invasion force from a massive empire for instance) but it put Leto in a very difficult place when it came to convincing his nobles to give up land to honour the Cygnaran side of the bargain. Not to mention that we now know some of those nobles who pushed him not to do it may be plotting against him with Magnus/Vinter.

Also to refute the point about trolls being Disney good, Doomshaper is a rather racist old psycho who took his dire trolls and treated them to a buffet of wounded cygnaran soldiers when he raided a hospital train. Madrak is turning into something of a berserker psychopath who kills everyone around him. Gunbjorn is a moderate racist. Actually a fair few trolls have some minor racism in them (strong distrust of other species at the very least)

There are some very "good" people in trolls, much like there are in Cygnar, but it is far from all of them.

[MathPasta]

So yeah. In a setting of Greys and Blacks Cygnar are the only Whitish.

Thats kinda why I hate them as a faction.

[Soundsofascience]

Op, what are you talking about with developing the squire?

[MathPasta]

Some cult helped them develop it by providing some components.

If the Cult underlined the majority of Cygnarian invention, THAT would be awesome. How all their genius is secretly caused by an evil cult.

[Ysthrall]

Mathpasta, glad you've got a reason.

Intervening to help Llael left Cygnar overextended, lost them a lot of troops, and probably drained the garrisons of Northwall and Caspia. Sitting back and saying "oh hard luck guys" would have been a militarily sensible, if morally and politically disastrous, course of action.

The mess with the Trollbloods sounds like a nasty fork. Wherever you send them, something bad's going to happen. To be honest, better the eastern border vs Skorne than the Thornwood with Cryx and Khador.

Stephen Garmark, Cygnar is not a military dictatorship. It's a monarchy, with a militant king, who siezed power in a palace coup. Leto DOES have a solid claim to the throne, as the oldest Raelthorne male left in the country. He's not holding the throne by force of arms.

Interesting thought, are there any military dictatorships?
Khador is a (newly imperial) monarchy.
The PoM is a theocracy, where the best warriors (Kreoss, for example) serve the top priests.
Ios is... a mess.
Rhul is a republic, IIRC.
The mercs, minions and Trollbloods don't have a formal hierachy.
The Circle or Orboros is a religous order, and command from above seems... hazy.

The Legion of Everblight is a dictatorship, a wandering tribal horde ruled by individual chieftans (warlocks) answering to the strongest amongst them (Thagrosh/Everblight).
The Skorne are a military dictatorship. Makeda is in charge because anyone who disagrees loses privilidges (blood, limbs, souls, breathing, etc).
Cryx is a military dictatorship. They do what Toruk says becasue otherwise they die painfully, and then do what Toruk says.

[iksander]

Op, what are you talking about with developing the squire?

The Cult of Cyriss helped develop the squire. The cult of Cyriss is not expressly evil, although the true purposes of the machine goddess are not known. Cyriss supposedly has some grand design, but meh, Cyriss is so relegated to bottom tier in the fluff, that I expect massive retcons to her in the future.

[odinsgrandson]

Some cult helped them develop it by providing some components.

If the Cult underlined the majority of Cygnarian invention, THAT would be awesome. How all their genius is secretly caused by an evil cult.

Oh, are we talking about Cyrissists? That would make sense. Their goddess is all about invention and technology, and have been involved with a number of Cygnaran technological advances (Stryker's armor comes to mind).


I feel like Cygnar acts a little more like the nations of our world that try to look like everything they do is good and just, while sometimes committing small atrocities (sometimes through inaction). The incidents with the Trollbloods are an example of that.

Cygnar's main religion is one that sometimes likes to interfere with polotics, and at other times likes to stand back and hide behind neutrality.

Cygnar has persecuted Menites. In older times, they were persecuted to the point that they felt they needed to leave the country and form their own protectorate (which should have been its own nation). But more recently, Cygnar kept them from being able to provide and defend for themselves in as much as they could (warjacks were developed in the Protectorate against the law, and also note that all of the normal trade routs go through Cygnar- this is something that is often done in our own world when a nation wants to impoverish another but claim they are not responsible).

In addition, recently Stryker started burning Menite churches within Cygnar, and rounding up Menites to be shipped out of the country. It is possible that he would have rounded them up to kill them all if Leto hadn't intervened.

Cygnar used to persecute sorcerers through witchhunts where people were killed because the high inquisitor didn't like them. After Vinter was overthrown, the church of Morrow actually granted sanctuary to most of these clearly evil inquisitors. More recently, Cygnar has reinstated them and pardoned them of all of their murders- with no thought to the victims of their witch hunts.

Of course, they were reinstated so that they could hunt down Menites instead of witches. I guess it all comes around somewhere.

Also- Cygnar's king is not the rightful heir to the throne- even if you discount Vinter. Plenty of people know this, but they're keeping it a national secret (even from Leto who- let's face it- might as well be a puppet ruler).

[Bladestorm]

The Circle or Orboros is a religous order, and command from above seems... hazy.

I would note that the circle orboros likes to make people think it is a religious order, but the reality is more like a secret society.

They profess to be high priests of the devourer outwardly because it gets them control over the Tharn as well as remote communities such as the ones they recruit the Wolves and Reeves of Orboros from.

The inner circle (eg the bulk of the druids) is however not about worshipping the devourer, but rather about controlling and manipulating it - trying to keep the wilds, wild things and wild people in balance with the civilized part of the world, because they believe that if the balance swings too far towards civilization (represented by Menoth for one) the devourer itself will manifest on Cain and destroy everything/everyone.

It could be argued that the final goal is "good" however they can be fairly ruthless at times about the methods they use, quite possibly because they don't believe they can achieve there goal without extreme measures.

[Strangelove]

Cygnar's probably got the shortest list when it comes to recent transgressions (although a couple are kinda big - i.e. religious persecution), but you have to remember the dark days under Vinter haven't been completely washed away.

[King-of-Storms]

I like that the factions arent black and white, Cygnar has plenty of skeletons in the closet, id say the complete abandonment of Llael and putting Menites into concentration camps are probably the worst things under Leto.
Also the fact that Cygnar is obviously a military dictatorship kinda defeats the "good guys" argument.

Llael was a lost cause, it wasn't abandonment. They risked the safety of their nation for the sake of foreign one. Survival of your own homeland takes presedence, it's only natural. Like for instance would you risk leaving the bulk of the Army in Canada if Russia decided to invade the US while all your armies are on foreign soil? You make the call.

As for Menites put into concentration camps, heh...they deserved it and then some.

Potential crimes of Cygnar:

-Invasion of the Protectorate of Menoth
-Imprisonment of Menites in Cygnar
-Mistreatment of the Trolls
-Abandonment of Llael to its fate.

And all of these can a) be justified as difficult decisions that needed to be made for the good of Cygnar and b) are much much more lenient than what most of the other nations would have done in the same situation...

Cygnar does not resort to summary executions like Khador and Menoth. At least they take you in prisoner and give you some reprieve if you cooperate before leaving you to rot in a cell somewhere.

-The invasion of Menoth was retalitatory. The Menites had it coming when they started knocking on Caspia's door during the Lion's Coup and they got their butts whooped proper too albiet heavy losses on Cygnar's side. I have no sympathy for the Menites. The only reason the Protectorate remains is because Leto is beating around the bush like the timid man he is.

-Imprisonment of Menites was justified. No matter what Morrow tried to do to appease the Menties, they wanted their way or the highway. Many Morrowans died because Menites were being intolerant malcontents. So I say to Ucraen to the Menites and their bigotry.

-Mistreatment of the trolls...heh like the trolls are all cute and cuddly? Bullcrap! The Trolls are ruthless brutes who are just as if not more prejudiced than the Cygnarians you accuse of. Would you continue to treat a band of thugs nicely if they continued to raid and pillage your homes? I think not...

-Abandonment of Llael...it wasn't abandonment. Read the other side of the story. Llael was a lost cause and they did it to themselves if you want to get to the nooks and crannies of the issue. They had leadership who was ready to give the nation over to the Khadorian regime on a silver platter. It wasn't Cygnarian abandonment it was Llaelese corruption that hammered the final nail in the coffin.

I'm not saying Cygnar is innocent, but they have a lot less blood on their hands than the rest.

[Lanz]

-The invasion of Menoth was retalitatory. The Menites had it coming when they started knocking on Caspia's door during the Lion's Coup and they got their butts whooped proper too albiet heavy losses on Cygnar's side. I have no sympathy for the Menites. The only reason the Protectorate remains is because Leto is beating around the bush like the timid man he is.

And the only reason Cygnar remains is because the Harbinger allowed Stryker to kill Voyle. It's one thing to say that Cygnar could actually manage to take The Protectorate by force, but the fact remains that they didn't. The menites pushed them back, right down caspia's throat, and the only thing that ended up saving Cygnar was a prophecy that Voyle ignored.

[Bladestorm]

And the only reason Cygnar remains is because the Harbinger allowed Stryker to kill Voyle. It's one thing to say that Cygnar could actually manage to take The Protectorate by force, but the fact remains that they didn't. The menites pushed them back, right down caspia's throat, and the only thing that ended up saving Cygnar was a prophecy that Voyle ignored.

I happen to think that open war with several other nations factors in slightly as well.

[Lanz]

I happen to think that open war with several other nations factors in slightly as well.

True, but that is Cygnar's situation right now.

[PG_Draxos]

The Protectorate Burns the "Guilty"
Khador chains its criminals to dangerous artifacts
Cryx is Cryx
The Retribution abuses its souless
Trolls use horrific monsters for their wars, and recentcly released dangerous monstersScorne tortures baby elephants SO much that their pain becomes physical. And then sends a fat guy to sit on them.
Everblight mutates the innocent
Pigs create frankenstien abominations
The Circle are child kidnapping savages that do plenty of horrific things
What are Cygnars recent comparable horrific crimes? Being kinda jerkish to trolls does not count (Thats just idiocy on Letos part). Neither does slightly sketchy Squire development.

Because they just come off as the Mary sues/ Good guys of Warmachine in my opinion.

Emphasis mine. Trolls don't use horrific creature, they use trolls. there is a difference. It's kinda like saying that anyone who can tame a lion and use it to hunt for you is using a horrific creature.

Druids don't normally kicknap kids. Alot of the time the parents let them take the child since they know it means they will get help or they stop the parents from killing the kid for being a wurm child (see Krueger).

Meanwhile Cygnar has screwed the Trolls over in so many ways and has more than a few black spots on their records (Vinter as a whole)

[skurkious]

If you tried really hard you could make cases that Protectorate, Retribution, Trollbloods, Cygnar, and Circle are all "good".

Protectorate -- They are trying to return people to the creator. They only want to repay Menoth for his gifts.
Retribution -- Humans have destroyed or kidnapped(not sure which) their gods and they only fight to save them.
Trollbloods -- They have been deceived and betrayed at every turn and have only chosen to unleash the dires and MKs as a last ditch effort to save their people.
Cygnar -- Seem to have the best treatment of their people. Just trying to protect their allies. Morrow is a much more forgiving god/diety/paragon.
Circle -- As mentioned above, only trying to stop the return of the Wurm as well as the spread of the Dragons.

Obviously they have all used questionable methods but I think overall they aren't necessarily evil. Hell even Khador can say they have been screwed over and are only trying to get back what was taken from them.

[Da-Rock]

If you tried really hard you could make cases that Protectorate, Retribution, Trollbloods, Cygnar, and Circle are all "good".

Protectorate -- They are trying to return people to the creator. They only want to repay Menoth for his gifts.
Retribution -- Humans have destroyed or kidnapped(not sure which) their gods and they only fight to save them.
Trollbloods -- They have been deceived and betrayed at every turn and have only chosen to unleash the dires and MKs as a last ditch effort to save their people.
Cygnar -- Seem to have the best treatment of their people. Just trying to protect their allies. Morrow is a much more forgiving god/diety/paragon.
Circle -- As mentioned above, only trying to stop the return of the Wurm as well as the spread of the Dragons.

Obviously they have all used questionable methods but I think overall they aren't necessarily evil. Hell even Khador can say they have been screwed over and are only trying to get back what was taken from them.

Unfortunately that logic would make the Nazi's fall into the "Kinda Good" category. A Reason for is not an Excuse for :-)

[elladan52]

If you tried really hard you could make cases that Protectorate, Retribution, Trollbloods, Cygnar, and Circle are all "good".

Maybe, No, Yes, Yes, No.

The protectorate falls on both sides of the coin, I think. On the one hand, you've got the temple flameguard and their infamous cleansers. On the other hand, you've got the paladins of the order of the wall. And on your middle hand, you've got the Knights exemplar. And to be fair to them, burning people cleanses their souls (or at least wracking them does), so at least they believe they are helping the heretics.

The Retribution wants to kill everyone with magical ability. Not imprison, not reason with, just kill. And to hell with anyone that stands in their way. It's hard to put a good spin on that.

The Circle Orboros is pretty nasty, too. Most of their rituals involve human sacrifice, if I remember correctly. Definitely not the kind of people you invite over for ice-cream (unless by ice-cream you mean the severed heads of your enemies).

[MathPasta]

Emphasis mine. Trolls don't use horrific creature, they use trolls. there is a difference. It's kinda like saying that anyone who can tame a lion and use it to hunt for you is using a horrific creature.

I would still say that Dire Trolls are horrific unfeeling monsters that exist only to devour.

Even their most positive descriptions mention that they only "Generally" avoid devouring their friends.

Obviously they have all used questionable methods but I think overall they aren't necessarily evil. Hell even Khador can say they have been screwed over and are only trying to get back what was taken from them.

Of course, thats what I liked about the other factions is that the majority border on black/ grey. Khador was stuck in the siberia of The IK where even basic mining and gathering took twice the effort of other places whilst Cygnar seated itself with the most bountiful of the areas.

Im just saying that Cygnar is the most whitish.

[King-of-Storms]

If you tried really hard you could make cases that Protectorate, Retribution, Trollbloods, Cygnar, and Circle are all "good".

Protectorate -- They are trying to return people to the creator. They only want to repay Menoth for his gifts.
Retribution -- Humans have destroyed or kidnapped(not sure which) their gods and they only fight to save them.
Trollbloods -- They have been deceived and betrayed at every turn and have only chosen to unleash the dires and MKs as a last ditch effort to save their people.
Cygnar -- Seem to have the best treatment of their people. Just trying to protect their allies. Morrow is a much more forgiving god/diety/paragon.
Circle -- As mentioned above, only trying to stop the return of the Wurm as well as the spread of the Dragons.

Obviously they have all used questionable methods but I think overall they aren't necessarily evil. Hell even Khador can say they have been screwed over and are only trying to get back what was taken from them.

Protectorate: Sure let's bring everyone under the fold of Menoth by maiming and purging everyone who doesn't blindly accept Menoth as their god.

Retribution: They should take it out on the Khadorians instead of everyone else since they're the ones "experimenting" on their gods. Cygnar, Llael and Ord should take the opportunity to discuss an alliance or at least a ceasefire with the Retribution.

Trollbloods: I'm not deep with the lore of Hordes but I despise a bunch of animals that only serve as a cudgel to the highest bidder when they're not fighting amongst themselves or causing havoc elsewhere.

Circle: Again I don't know much about Hordes but it should be to their mutual advantage to aid the Iron Kingdoms to fight the Cryx and contain the Menite incursions.

And the only reason Cygnar remains is because the Harbinger allowed Stryker to kill Voyle. It's one thing to say that Cygnar could actually manage to take The Protectorate by force, but the fact remains that they didn't. The menites pushed them back, right down caspia's throat, and the only thing that ended up saving Cygnar was a prophecy that Voyle ignored.

Voyle was stupid, arrogant and foolish to go about his own righteous crusade to hit Cygnar when it was at its weakest. I think when push came to shove the Menites would have lost either way but Cygnar would have lost a great deal more ground than what the storyline has in place now.

Still I think in the next chapter of Warmachine the Protectorate needs a royal kick in the ***. At least in Colossals (according to rumors and previews) the Khadorians had the horse sense to have a breif mutual alliance against the Cryx. If I were Stryker when the Cryx are taken care of and the Khadorians are at their weakest push them back out of Cygnar lands and send them running back to their motherland in body bags...

Never trust a Khadorian.

[Scottl1]

Trollbloods: I'm not deep with the lore of Hordes but I despise a bunch of animals that only serve as a cudgel to the highest bidder when they're not fighting amongst themselves or causing havoc elsewhere.

Circle: Again I don't know much about Hordes but it should be to their mutual advantage to aid the Iron Kingdoms to fight the Cryx and contain the Menite incursions.

Yea it's pretty obvious you don't know much about the hordes factions. Though it's funny you paint the trolls so poorly when cygnar faction uses A LOT of hired help. lol The trolls weren't hired help. The deal originally was that Cygnar and trolls would be allies. Then the trolls would relocate with the help of Cygnar. Which now we know that never came to pass.

Self loathing much?

[King-of-Storms]

Yea it's pretty obvious you don't know much about the hordes factions. Though it's funny you paint the trolls so poorly when cygnar faction uses A LOT of hired help. lol The trolls weren't hired help. The deal originally was that Cygnar and trolls would be allies. Then the trolls would relocate with the help of Cygnar. Which now we know that never came to pass.

Self loathing much?

But they're not allies are they? Self loathing is a pretty ignorant statement considering I play Cygnar so you either misunderstood my post or have not paid that much attention.

If I paint the Trolls in such a poor light then why are they wrecking havoc on Cygnar's rail infrastructure? And don't say because Cygnar did this and that...no it's because Trolls do what Trolls do best. I'm only pointing out that Trolls aren't that nice and friendly as some people like to potray them as and neither is Cygnar completely clean on certian things.

As far as Hordes is considered...yes I don't know much and I can't seem to get interested in it. The whole technological part of the Iron Kingdoms of Warmachine appeals to me more I suppose. -shrugs- Go figure...

[Scottl1]

But they're not allies are they? Self loathing is a pretty ignorant statement considering I play Cygnar so you either misunderstood my post or have not paid that much attention.

If I paint the Trolls in such a poor light then why are they wrecking havoc on Cygnar's rail infrastructure? And don't say because Cygnar did this and that...no it's because Trolls do what Trolls do best. I'm only pointing out that Trolls aren't that nice and friendly as some people like to potray them as and neither is Cygnar completely clean on certian things.

As far as Hordes is considered...yes I don't know much and I can't seem to get interested in it. The whole technological part of the Iron Kingdoms of Warmachine appeals to me more I suppose. -shrugs- Go figure...

No they aren't now because when Madrak asked Leto to hold up to his promise after they got devastated by khador, cryx, etc. Leto said no. Leto said you scratch my back I'll scratch yours. Guess what? He dropped the ball and made a desperate group more desperate.

No I said self loathing because you said you hate clubs for hire but Cygnar is the banker for most clubs for hire. So it's a bit ironic you hate the help.

Madrak stated ok leto if you won't give us what you promised we'll take it. Maybe you should read more fluff before saying stupid statements and admitting you don't know their fluff.

Leto has no excuse. He should not be making promises he knew he could not keep. He knew his majority would not support him giving away their land and resources. Similar deal lead to the downfall of Rome.

[A8mew]

To clarify a bit on Circle: They absolutely cannot team up with Warmachine on a permanent basis, and ultimately, whatever they're doing is an attempt to save the world.

A quick rundown: Circles druids are capable of harnessing the power of the Devourer, and use this to make the Wolves and Tharn assist them by saying they are like priests. The Devourer is in conflict in Urcaen (the afterlife) with Menoth, who represents technologically advanced civilization (Cygnar, Protectorate, Khador, etc) and all that jazz. If the balance tips too far in favor of Menoth, The Devourer will enter our world, and destroy it. Rocks fall, everybody dies, no saving throw or exceptions. Ritual sacrifices strengthen The Devourer and fighting against civilization weakens Menoth. The ultimate goal of Circle is to keep these two forces balanced for all eternity, so neither ever gets the advantage over the other. If they didn't do what they do, Menoth would win in a matter of time.

Although ritual sacrifice is widely considered an evil act, when the alternative is the unavoidable destruction of everything and there are no reasonable alternatives, the occasional sacrifice doesn't look so bad. They're playing a very long game that goes back for quite some time.

[King-of-Storms]

No they aren't now because when Madrak asked Leto to hold up to his promise after they got devastated by khador, cryx, etc. Leto said no. Leto said you scratch my back I'll scratch yours. Guess what? He dropped the ball and made a desperate group more desperate.

No I said self loathing because you said you hate clubs for hire but Cygnar is the banker for most clubs for hire. So it's a bit ironic you hate the help.

Madrak stated ok leto if you won't give us what you promised we'll take it. Maybe you should read more fluff before saying stupid statements and admitting you don't know their fluff.

Leto has no excuse. He should not be making promises he knew he could not keep. He knew his majority would not support him giving away their land and resources. Similar deal lead to the downfall of Rome.

Well Leto isn't the brightest King Cygnar ever had plus when a nation is fighting a war on multiple fronts what did you think would happen? They were bound to betray the Crown anyway somewhere down the line plus the Trolls are just as prejudiced as the Cygnarians. I'm self loathing because I turn away help? That's another ignorant statement, I use mercenaries I just don't use the tarpit, Boomhowler and Co. because I practice what I preach.

Cygnar has more mercenary opportunities than most. This is true, but Madrak has better things to do to "get even with Cygnar" because don't he have his hands full with the Skorne? I don't think either side of the story has advanced that far as to say Madrak is going after Cygnar I believe he is going after the Cirlce in other words he's got bigger fish to fry. So who is making stupid statements? Trolls have nothing mutual only to carry out their own agendas just as any other faction.

Cygnar isn't the only one who has screwed Trolls in the past. I read NQ too you know.

[Lanz]

Protectorate: Sure let's bring everyone under the fold of Menoth by maiming and purging everyone who doesn't blindly accept Menoth as their god.

Blindly? They've actually got a staggering amount of guidance and vindication as far as religious factions in fantasy settings go. The Harbinger, The Avatar, the Testament, Severius's rise to Heirarch and the powers he's manifested. The protectorate has quite a lot to go on to both validate their position, and prove they have Menoth's blessing.

I don't think you really understand what the Protectorate is about, though. That's okay, lots of people just dismiss them as the 'religious zealot' faction without skimming much further past the surface.

But fear not, I am well versed in explaining things to heathens- er, non-menites.

See, the war of souls in urcaen really, really sucks. The Devourer and Menoth pretty much are locked in a stalemate, and if either side wins, it'll probably be really bad for Caen. Like, fire-and-brimstone old-testament bad. The end of the world, etc, etc. Certainly the end of all civilization if the Devourer turns its attention to Caen.

What's the only thing standing in the way of that? Menoth and his faithful. Really, Protectorate are the 'dark knights' of the setting. The tragic heroes. Every other nation fights for shallow mortal concepts like land, and happiness and wealth and power, etc, etc, but they forget (or just don't know/believe) that their mortal death isn't the end for them, and like it or not, they're going to urcaen afterwards. The Protectorate, on the other hand, not only knows this, they embrace it in their mortal lives, and spend it fighting to swell Menoth's power on Caen, and bolster the ranks of the faithful, who know that when they die, they will go to urcaen to continue the fight. A fight for literally all humanity(and then some), not just themselves. If the protectorate falls, so would the rest of Caen fall with it*.

So you can hate them or call them evil, but they're a necessary evil working towards a greater good in a very desperate life-of-death scenario. Their methods are harsh, but they also have to be because the world as they know it hangs in the balance.

*at least this is as the current setting would have us believe. It's entirely possible that other forces are at work, but generally as far as we know from the existing lore, Menoth losing to the Devourer would pretty much be the end of all things.

Voyle was stupid, arrogant and foolish to go about his own righteous crusade to hit Cygnar when it was at its weakest. I think when push came to shove the Menites would have lost either way but Cygnar would have lost a great deal more ground than what the storyline has in place now.

I don't see any reason to believe this. When cygnar had pushed well into Sul, they were fighting the Menites right in the streets and for all tactical purposes were 'winning', but the protectorate pushed them back. And it didn't require cygnaran in-fighting to pull it off. When the Menites turned around and pushed back into Caspia, it was a one-sided slaughter. The Cygnarans could do pretty much nothing to stop the protectorate, and they didn't. The protectorate stopped the protectorate. Or I suppose you could say Menoth stopped them, through his prophet. There was no real outside pressure to tip the scales, it was pretty much a straight up fight between the two until that happened, and before it ended, Cygnar was not only losing, they were losing really badly, and only divine intervention saved them.

Yes, Voyle made a mistake, and was the reason that army withdrew, but Voyle wasn't single-handedly fighting everything by himself, either.

Of course, at the end of the day, this is all moot because the factions all have enough plot armor to guarantee that their players will have enough respect for them. It's unlikely that we would ever see Cygnar crumble unless it was gaining something else in the process to keep them 'cool'.

[MathPasta]

The protectorate is good/ evil depending on whether or not they are telling the truth:

Is Menoth fine with all the help he gets already/ the other souls end up helping him anyway, and he is just being selfish demanding all the souls (Remember- If the protectorate wins, everybody still dies due to the devourer worm)

Or is he really in trouble and REALY needs those souls to help him, thus requiring this necessary action back on the planet to ensure that he doesn't loose.

[Lanz]

(Remember- If the protectorate wins, everybody still dies due to the devourer worm)

Not necessarily. The idea that Menoth winning would just cause the Devourer to go to Caen and destroy it is an idea propagated entirely by the Circle. Given that their justification hinges on the idea of this 'balance' I wouldn't be suprised if it's not nearly as certain as they claim it to be. Either way, Menoth isn't just fighting for kicks to keep the wyrm occupied. He's there to kill it. The act of fighting it sustains the balance, but I'm pretty sure that balance is not Menoth's ultimate objective. Given the laws he gives to his followers, I don't doubt that if he could, he'd kill the devourer wyrm and create a reality of absolute law. Which would probably be very boring.

[MathPasta]

OK so not everybody dies but we loose all free will.